Chrono Trigger - 100% TAS in 5:17

Recorded on Snes9x 1.43-improvement12 (but should work fine on future versions of the Snes9x 1.43 series as well)

Sync Settings

  • WIP 1 Timing: ON
  • Left+Right/Up+Down: OFF
  • Volume Envelope Height Reading: OFF
  • Fake Mute desync workaround: ON
  • Sync samples with sound CPU: ON

Attributes of this run

  • aims for fastest time with 100% completion (definition below)
  • takes damage to save time
  • manipulates luck
  • avoids glitches for classic, natural sake
  • Genre: RPG
  • Total Frames: 1243936

About the Game

Chrono Trigger is a great role-playing game made by Square. It is known as one of the best RPG games of all time. The story is about time-traveling in which a group of young adventurers is trying to save the future by defeating a mighty creature called "Lavos" which has infected and destroyed the world.

Moviemaking & Comments

Finally it's done, a run I wanted to TAS for a long time already, 100% for Chrono Trigger in legit/glitchless conditions. This 100% completion requires:
  • getting at least 1 of every Item/Weapon/Armor/Helmet/Accessory (186 unique items)
  • collecting all Power/Magic/Speed Tabs (except of LV99 Pink Nu reward)
  • opening all the Sealed Chests (Black Boxes) / Sealed Doors in every time period
  • finishing all sidequests
  • defeating every boss
  • defeating every form of Spekkio (except LV99 Pink Nu - separate demonstration of that form available here)
  • learning all Single/Double/Triple Techs for each character
Game clock completion is 5 hours and 17 minutes at the moment the Lavos Core is defeated, which is pretty exactly a 4 hour improvement over my 100% ZSNES run [dead link removed].

Thanks

  • hero of the day - for the Masa&Mune strategy
  • inichi - for the critical hit tables
Enjoy!

Nach: Sorry for the delay, I spent a long time analyzing this, and mulling over what everyone had to say.
Watching the run carefully, a few important points occurred to me:
  • A non-typical full Chrono innocent verdict was achieved.
  • Many chests are skipped which will make people question how can this be 100% if they were missed?
  • A lot of planning went into route and selections to optimize this. The route and selections were very well selected. In a few places, it looks like some time can be shaved, but overall, this is superb.
  • I know the game extremely well, yet I was surprised by a false wall demoed in the run which I wasn't aware of. Other people in the thread who also know the game fairly well were surprised by a few points (which I myself found surprising that some people weren't aware of them), so this game probably has something fresh to offer to pretty much everyone out there.
  • A typical RPG player goes hunting around all the areas for items, and doesn't just rush to bosses like TASs do, so this run feels more natural, except for the fact it's done in a third or quarter of the time most would expect.
  • Many of the interesting side things the game has to offer were skipped.
To address some of the negative aspects:
  • Snes9x v1.4x was used, which doesn't emulate this game as well as it can be. However, this run was submitted right on the border, and clearly was in development for a long time prior, so I will let this slide.
  • There were a few boring grinding parts, but thankfully they can be fast forwarded without missing anything, and didn't detract too much from the run, as the voting showed.
  • This run is not 100%. In my opinion, a true 100% would leave no chest unopened, and would demonstrate every variation of every single ending, which would need at least two full runs through the game. However what this run did do, and do well, was acquire the maximum amount of unique equipment it could in a single pass, and dealt with all significant chests and side-quests.
  • The run indeed was not perfect, but very few people know the game remotely as well as Saturn has demonstrated, to even notice or know of the flaws, with most of the commented flaws in fact being misunderstandings about the game.
  • The demonstration right before Lavos indeed wasted time, but I felt was a very nice polish which made the run even better, and allows random viewers to appreciate what was collected.
All in all, after careful deliberation, I find this run publish worthy if an appropriate label is given. Accepting as a new branch for Hoshino Trigger, whatever it will be called (not 100%).

DeHackEd: Need to redo the videos since the branch name has changed. In progress.

Saturn: Way to go to turn an appropriate standard label into one based on a subjective opinion of one person. Allow me to ask this:
  • How does "All techniques, Max equipment" mention things this run does that otherwise wouldn't be necessary, such as fully completing all sidequests, fighting all bosses/Spekkio forms (with one exception mentioned above), and collecting all Tabs and sealed chests/doors? You could probably save around an hour from skipping all that by aiming for solely "All techs and max equipment", for a gigantic obsoletion of this run.
Let's face it, it will be impossible to get an unanimous agreement on what a 100% run for a game like this one is, since opinions will always be different. One could argue that you have to talk to every single talkable character, max out the money to 9999999+ G, use every weapon and tech at least one time on every possible enemy, spend hours on meaningless, boring, and repetitional quests to get max cat food, cats and all clones, walk over every pixel in every possible room in the game, and other nonsense like that.
This run gets/shows the most essential things that contribute to a 100% completion in an entertainment oriented way, and there is hardly any better single-term that can sum up the actions done in it to make the watcher clear what to expect overall.
Otherwise please go ahead and rename the Secret of Evermore 100% run to something else as well, since it also doesn't open every chest.
EDIT: So it looks like Nach isn't interested to provide reasonable arguments against the point mentioned above or the several comments in the discussion thread that pointed the obvious flaws of this incomplete and misleading label change after all. Clearly defined common sense goals like this 100% one, that were easily accepted here in the past, are apparently too difficult to recognize for some of the judges nowadays, and the other TASvideos staff members seem to be not interested to have properly named content on their site either. Alright then, so be it.


Personman
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Canar wrote:
in addition to subjecting one of my partners to a significant portion of it.
Assuming I'm interpreting you correctly, it makes me happy to see another poly TAS fan :) You should come hang out with us in /r/polyamory on reddit!
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Player (206)
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Nach wrote:
Vykan12 wrote:
All techniques, Max equipment
Add all sidequests to the category name to make it slightly less silly.
It's not all sidequests.
Sidequests in this game are the events Gaspar mentions at the End of Time after getting the flying Epoch.
feos wrote:
Rules mean nothing internally, only naturalness does.
The most natural element for a 100% run is getting all of the unique items in pretty much any game, which this run focuses on in the first place alongside many additional features to show most of the game, while only skipping a few meaningless events that wouldn't give you any gains other than adding long, repetitional delays 99% of people wouldn't be interested to see anyway.
feos wrote:
Did the goal in the author's mind naturally produce some kind of solution that also feels natural by the audience? Why overcomplicate and overformalize everything afterwards once again? This isn't going anywhere good this way (history proved).
So you think using a label the judge "invents out of nowhere by himself to overcomplicate and overformalize everything afterwards", that ignores ~50% of this runs goals is more natural to the general audience?
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
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I'm saying the author sets the goal in the first place. My bad, I haven't read all posts to determine how much people agree with your goal, but if it was liked, it must be left as it was originally. If not, all the audience must take part in figuring the branch name out. I also can't recall how the rules describe the cases when item % is not showed and their real number in the game is actually unknown. Like, "max items" instead of "all items". http://tasvideos.org/Search.html?key=%22max+items%22&subs=1 But since it was not defined yet, we can settle with traditional names, like 100%, just mentioning what would it mean for a particular game. It is natural and sensible, picking particular traits for a branch name and ignoring others - is not.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
It's not all sidequests.
And that's why it's not 100% either, so the current name (all techniques, max equipment) is the most accurate one suggested so far.
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Saturn wrote:
Nach wrote:
Vykan12 wrote:
All techniques, Max equipment
Add all sidequests to the category name to make it slightly less silly.
It's not all sidequests.
Sidequests in this game are the events Gaspar mentions at the End of Time after getting the flying Epoch.
All the ones he mentioned that you completed give you an item in the process. It's not possible to get all those items without completing each of those side quests (to some extent). Therefore the max equipment goal implies all those side quests which you consider side quests.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Nach wrote:
Saturn wrote:
Nach wrote:
Vykan12 wrote:
All techniques, Max equipment
Add all sidequests to the category name to make it slightly less silly.
It's not all sidequests.
Sidequests in this game are the events Gaspar mentions at the End of Time after getting the flying Epoch.
All the ones he mentioned that you completed give you an item in the process. It's not possible to get all those items without completing each of those side quests (to some extent). Therefore the max equipment goal implies all those side quests which you consider side quests.
You don't have to do the Ozzie's Fort sidequest any further after the main battle to get any additional items. You don't have to complete Death Peak and get Crono back to get items. Also "max equipment" only indicates items you can equip, not all the other stuff that appears in the item list, while not even being clear whether it has to be all of it or only the best.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
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Saturn wrote:
You don't have to complete Death Peak and get Crono back to get items.
But you do to get all techniques.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Player (206)
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Posts: 1451
Nach wrote:
Saturn wrote:
You don't have to complete Death Peak and get Crono back to get items.
But you do to get all techniques.
You can learn them all before that.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [2339] SNES Chrono Trigger "completionist" by Saturn in 5:44:58.18
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I think I should have waited a little longer. It's been about 9 hours since the youtube video was uploaded and it's STILL not ready. Come on, google!
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Up to 480P's been processed now.
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Oh wow, I'm looking forward to watching this! I probably won't have time until next weekend since I just saw it on the queue, but congrats Saturn!
Working on a mod of an old favorite in my spare time. PM for updates!
SA
Joined: 3/20/2013
Posts: 1
Congrats to Saturn for such a long TAS. But this raises grave concerns. What guidelines should be followed by speedrunners wanting to obsolete this run? If they decide to disagree on the specific details of what constitutes 100%, they get either a handicap or an advantage vs. Saturn. The choice of which things to include is too subjective. I really think this would be better as a playaround or something.
Experienced player (763)
Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146
I was surprised by how fast this TAS is for a nearly 6-hour RPG run. The entirety of it aside from grinding segments was perfectly watchable and entertaining. Also, Saturn, when are you going to submit the Super Metroid Redesign run? I'm looking forward to it.
Patashu
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SA wrote:
But this raises grave concerns. What guidelines should be followed by speedrunners wanting to obsolete this run? If they decide to disagree on the specific details of what constitutes 100%, they get either a handicap or an advantage vs. Saturn. The choice of which things to include is too subjective. I really think this would be better as a playaround or something.
Two things come to mind: -If you were interested in improving the run, you'd discuss with the forum first any thoughts you have about things that should be added/removed as goals. -For sections that the two runs share in common, your run should always be as fast or faster.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
N._Harmonik
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Wouldn't the run have been faster if the characters' names had been shortened to just one letter each?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Player (206)
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Posts: 1451
turska wrote:
Also, Saturn, when are you going to submit the Super Metroid Redesign run? I'm looking forward to it.
There is no decision yet. That run has a couple of small optimization errors in the early Crateria parts resulted from rushing and not testing all variations at that time, so I probably shouldn't bother until an improved version, if it gets done. Having a probability that your hard work may not get accepted as it is without manipulations isn't a good motivation factor to make submissions either.
N. Harmonik wrote:
Wouldn't the run have been faster if the characters' names had been shortened to just one letter each?
It would, probably by a few seconds over the entire run. But I prefer originality and better recognition of the characters over tiny frame saver in this case.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Saturn wrote:
turska wrote:
Also, Saturn, when are you going to submit the Super Metroid Redesign run? I'm looking forward to it.
There is no decision yet. That run has a couple of small optimization errors in the early Crateria parts resulted from rushing and not testing all variations at that time, so I probably shouldn't bother until an improved version, if it gets done. Having a probability that your hard work may not get accepted as it is without manipulations isn't a good motivation factor to make submissions either.
You haven't yet decided if you want to submit a run you completed 2 years ago?!? Nobody's going to vote no over small optimization errors early in the run, that happens all the time and there's nothing runners can do about it unless the game is very hex friendly. If people were truly bothered by that, we'd never see a SM64 or N64 Zelda run published, EVER. I don't really get your logic about not submitting. Even if it gets rejected (it won't), you still dramatically increase the audience for your work, which must count for something given that run must've taken at least months to complete. And if the run is rejected, it will be over factors out of your control, like the inherent hatred most hacks get here. Even then I wouldn't worry too much, as the site's been more lenient with hack publications - look at SM Zero Mission any% and 100%. The shinesparking exploits in your Redesign TAS alone make it more entertaining than any SM hack the site's ever seen. Now even if you STILL don't want to submit, you should at least post the smv somewhere so that people aren't forced to watch an 11-part 30fps encode to appreciate your TAS.
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Saturn wrote:
turska wrote:
Also, Saturn, when are you going to submit the Super Metroid Redesign run? I'm looking forward to it.
There is no decision yet. That run has a couple of small optimization errors in the early Crateria parts resulted from rushing and not testing all variations at that time, so I probably shouldn't bother until an improved version, if it gets done. Having a probability that your hard work may not get accepted as it is without manipulations isn't a good motivation factor to make submissions either.
Just how many rerecords it has? I guess over 100k. NO ONE would pretend it's sloppy. And while not being sloppy, a good tas has no problem with having possible improvements and still being perfectly acceptable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I recall seeing a TAS of SMR some time back, which IIRC, was yours Saturn, and it looked publish worthy to me.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Vykan12 wrote:
You haven't yet decided if you want to submit a run you completed 2 years ago?!? Nobody's going to vote no over small optimization errors early in the run, that happens all the time and there's nothing runners can do about it unless the game is very hex friendly. If people were truly bothered by that, we'd never see a SM64 or N64 Zelda run published, EVER. I don't really get your logic about not submitting. Even if it gets rejected (it won't), you still dramatically increase the audience for your work, which must count for something given that run must've taken at least months to complete. And if the run is rejected, it will be over factors out of your control, like the inherent hatred most hacks get here. Even then I wouldn't worry too much, as the site's been more lenient with hack publications - look at SM Zero Mission any% and 100%. The shinesparking exploits in your Redesign TAS alone make it more entertaining than any SM hack the site's ever seen. Now even if you STILL don't want to submit, you should at least post the smv somewhere so that people aren't forced to watch an 11-part 30fps encode to appreciate your TAS.
I was referring to this Chrono Trigger case with my last sentence. Regarding Redesign, it's not about the run getting accepted or not, it just doesn't feel alright to submit something that was partly done back in 2006/2007 when the SM-TAS knowledge was still relatively limited compared to now. Besides, the complete run is available as one 60 fps HQ video file anyway.
feos wrote:
Just how many rerecords it has? I guess over 100k. NO ONE would pretend it's sloppy. And while not being sloppy, a good tas has no problem with having possible improvements and still being perfectly acceptable.
Almost 400k actually. The count skyrocketed when I started to polish the techniques more after ScrewAttack collection, which due to the new physics and possibilities opened many additional challenges to solve the original SM didn't offer. And the extremely luck based and by far most tedious Tourian part alone took around 1/4 of it, IIRC.
Nach wrote:
I recall seeing a TAS of SMR some time back, which IIRC, was yours Saturn, and it looked publish worthy to me.
It's a Snes9x movie.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
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Just judging by how appreciated your Redesign run is here, you can submit right away and don't give a fuck about anything. But I love perfectionism as well, this is how we get our BEST TASes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Saturn wrote:
So it looks like Nach isn't interested to provide reasonable arguments against the point mentioned above or the several comments in the discussion thread that pointed the obvious flaws of this incomplete and misleading label change after all. Clearly defined common sense goals like this 100% one, that were easily accepted here in the past, are apparently too difficult to recognize for some of the judges nowadays, and the other TASvideos staff members seem to be not interested to have properly named content on their site either. Alright then, so be it.
Why not just make it "High%"? We have "Low%", "Any%", "100%" and even "0%" already. I think this run is not what is traditionally meant by 100%, so it would need quite some notes about what it means in this case, while just setting it to High% solves most of issues.
Saturn wrote:
Nach wrote:
I recall seeing a TAS of SMR some time back, which IIRC, was yours Saturn, and it looked publish worthy to me.
It's a Snes9x movie.
If it was done before the deprecation, no problem.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Why not just make it "High%"?
That makes sense. However, can there be more than one kind of High%? In which case we need a way to differentiate them.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.