Topic by CoolKirby

Posted: 12/1/2013 2:39 AM

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CoolKirby

Editor, Experienced player (608)

Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4012

Okay, fixed all of the runs Radiant mentioned and added the "no save corruption" branch to Pokémon Blue by MrWint. What if the MMX glitched password run was tagged as a demonstration? Could we give it its own "Glitched Password" branch then?

Posted: 12/2/2013 2:08 AM
(Edited: 12/3/2013 8:05 PM)

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FractalFusion

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I agree with Mothrayas. I think [725] SNES Mega Man X by FractalFusion in 29:57.88 should be default (no branch name) and [2059] SNES Mega Man X "password glitch" by FractalFusion in 16:56.88 should have something like "password glitch". I also changed branch name of [980] NES Snow Bros. "2 players" by Randil in 13:56.85 to "2 players" and moved it to Moon tier. Edit: IIRC, MrWint's first TAS used item list glitch and overflow (buffer overflow?), like p4wn3r's TAS before that. His second TAS used Transform glitch to execute arbitrary data. I don't know if it is accurately described as buffer overflow. Possibly, since the description of the "zero move" in the Transform glitch involves using data from unintended areas of memory.

Posted: 12/2/2013 5:57 AM
(Edited: 12/3/2013 5:59 AM)

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CoolKirby

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Which sounds better, "password glitch" or "glitched password"? And should it be marked as a demonstration too (to exempt it from the rules that we decided on)? As for Primorial#soup's run currently marked "no buffer overflow", would "no memory corruption" be a simpler and more correct branch name to rule out item list glitches and overflow? EDIT: My bad, I meant Primorial's run, not MrWint's.

Posted: 12/2/2013 10:57 AM

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Radiant

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Hm, that MMX run is an interesting corner case. I get the impression that many people feel it shouldn't have been published because it sort-of uses a password. But given its acceptance text, and the fact that it has been published, doesn't that mean that this glitch has been considered acceptable for this game? After all, it doesn't really use a password. ...I don't have a strong opinion on this though, just thinking things through.

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Posted: 12/3/2013 6:23 AM

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CoolKirby

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Since there is a good amount of support to do so (including from FractalFusion, the author of both runs), I've changed the MMX runs back, and added the Demonstration tag to the glitched password run, based on the guidelines for the Demonstration tag:

This can be used for... unusual goal choices (like walkathon)... the game must either not be completed (based on traditional definitions) or completed with a goal choice other than one of the standard categories

I feel this fits because the main trick used in the run is controversial and the run was intended to be a demonstration of how fast the game can be completed with the password glitch anyway. Also, to prevent confusion and the possibility of being wrong, I've changed Primorial's Pokémon Blue run's branch to "no memory corruption". Unless there are more runs that need to be fixed, that should leave the Super Metroid to deal with.

Posted: 12/5/2013 11:43 AM
(Edited: 4/17/2014 8:41 PM)

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Radiant

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Here's one more game that should probably have its labels reversed: Contra Hard Corps. This run is labeled "secret ending" but is really any%, since the secret ending is the fastest; whereas that run is unlabeled but should be "no secret ending". As before, the latter run shows off more of the game but the former run is just faster; in this case the difference between the movies is not some weird game-skipping glitch, but an intentionally placed in-game secret that lets you skip most of it. And since we're discussing subtitles I might as well bring this up here: there are a handful of DOS "shareware game series" that are mislabeled. For example, this run specifies the game name as "Duke Nukem" and the branch as "episode 1". That is incorrect; the name of the game is "Duke Nukem episode 1" (and the branch would just be any%). Those different episodes are separate games, sold separately and with (slightly) different code; they're not different "paths" within the same game. The same applies to Jazz Jackrabbit (Holiday Hare '94, Holiday Hare '95 are not "paths" within the main game, but separate holiday releases that contain only that "path" and nothing of the full game).

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Posted: 12/5/2013 3:49 PM

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CoolKirby

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"Asterix & Obelix" is one of two game modes in the Asterix & Obelix game. But you're saying the branch name should be removed because it's assumed the run is of the main mode unless stated otherwise (like with Super Mario Advance)? I've fixed the other six runs and all the DOS games too. Thanks for finding all these runs; let me know if you find more!

Posted: 12/5/2013 5:03 PM

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Radiant

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CoolKirby wrote:

"Asterix & Obelix" is one of two game modes in the Asterix & Obelix game. But you're saying the branch name should be removed because it's assumed the run is of the main mode unless stated otherwise (like with Super Mario Advance)?

That is my opinion, yes. Not a big deal either way, though.

I've fixed the other six runs and all the DOS games too. Thanks for finding all these runs; let me know if you find more!

Thank you! Well I think I'm done for now :) Wait, I think I've been unclear on a few. I must say these shareware games were quite confusingly titled :)

Duke Nukem was released as a series of standalone games, titled "Duke Nukem episode 1", "DN episode 2" and "DN episode 3", followed by "Duke Nukem 2" and much later "Duke Nukem 3D". So the correct title would be Duke Nukem episode 1: Shrapnel City. This is the same as how the Commander Keen games were set up.
Hocus Pocus was released as a single game, with four "episodes" available from the start menu, that are basically different modes of gameplay (well, different level sets, really). Completing an episode returns you to the main menu. A separate shareware version exists that contains only the first "episode", but the runs on our site don't use that. So the title should be Hocus Pocus "Episode 1" and Hocus Pocus "Episode 2" (using subtitles).
The same applies to Epic Pinball, making it Epic Pinball "Super Android" (subtitle again).
Jazz Jackrabbit comes in three versions: shareware, registered, and CD; with 1, 6, and 9 "episodes" contained in a single game respectively. Furthermore, the game will simply move to the next episode when completing one, so a single run could go through all nine episodes. The run we have on the site is for the shareware version, which indeed has only one episode; Halloween Harry also works like this, except that the HH run we have is of the full version of the game. However, the two holiday spinoffs are in fact separate games with only that particular "episode" in them. So the best title would be Jazz Jackrabbit shareware version (as this run fully completes the shareware version of JJR). The two christmas episodes are correctly named.
The rest of them are correct.

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Posted: 12/6/2013 9:12 PM

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CoolKirby

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Joined: 11/8/2010
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Radiant wrote:

Thank you!

You're welcome. Okay, I've fixed Asterix & Obelix, Duke Nukem, and the Hocus Pocus runs. And I see I misread the Wikipedia page for Epic Pinball, so I've corrected that one too. Thanks for the clarification, and also for just linking all these movies. It makes things a lot easier. For Jazz Jackrabbit, would it be enough to call it "Jazz Jackrabbit (shareware) in 04:43.79 by Ilari" and explain in the movie description that the shareware version only contains one episode?

Posted: 12/6/2013 11:34 PM

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Radiant

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CoolKirby wrote:

For Jazz Jackrabbit, would it be enough to call it "Jazz Jackrabbit (shareware) in 04:43.79 by Ilari" and explain in the movie description that the shareware version only contains one episode?

Yes, I think that's fine.

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Posted: 12/9/2013 12:27 PM

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Radiant

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Ok, I'll try to tackle the Super Metroid issue. There are a whopping seven runs of this game on the site. Looking over their subtitles, I find the following:

"100%" - correctly named
"Reverse boss order" - correct
"Glitched" - should be unlabeled, this is the current fastest any% run
(unlabeled) - should be "No X-Ray glitch", as that is the glitch it doesn't use. Although one could make a case for the "glitched" run above obsoleting both this one and the "any% ingame" one.
"Any% ingame" - should be "lowest ingame timer, no X-Ray glitch". Note that this is the only run on the whole site with an actual "any%" label. I think it would be good to expand "ingame" to explain what is ingame.
And then we have the "Glitchless Low%" and "Glitchless Low% Speedbooster" runs; as near as I can tell, their existence has been controversial. I'm not opening that can of worms again, although I would like to say that the name "glitchess" is incorrect since these runs do use glitches. So "less glitched" would be more accurate for both. There are, apparently, two different routes for a "less glitched" run, the first of which is faster and the second of which obtains the speedbooster item.

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Posted: 12/9/2013 2:23 PM

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feos

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Radiant wrote:

Although one could make a case for the "glitched" run above obsoleting both this one and the "any% ingame" one.

Nice joke, I LOL'd.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 12/9/2013 5:30 PM

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CoolKirby

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I think "any%", "no X-Ray glitch", and "no X-Ray glitch, lowest ingame timer" are fine replacements for those runs' branch names. As for the last two, would "less glitched low%" and "less glitched low%, speedbooster" be okay? Or just "low%" and "low%, speedbooster"?

Posted: 12/10/2013 10:35 AM

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Radiant

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CoolKirby wrote:

As for the last two, would "less glitched low%" and "less glitched low%, speedbooster" be okay? Or just "low%" and "low%, speedbooster"?

I think they do need the "less glitched" labels, because these runs more-or-less arbitrarily decided not to use certain glitches while still using other glitches (as the original judge states, "very little attempt is made in the submission text to define what makes a run ‘’legit’’ in the authors mind, and the issue is further clouded by admitting to abusing other glitches."). On the other hand, the label "low%" is dubious since both runs complete 14% of the game, whereas our any% run completes only 6%. I'm sure the die-hard Metroid fans can explain this better, but it appears that these runs aim for 14% completion and therefore avoid all glitches that would let the game be completed with less than 14%. Like I said, can of worms; I don't think we have runs with such goals for any other game on the site. So anyway, "less glitched low%" or "less glitched 14%" would work. Plus speedbooster for the other run, of course.

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Posted: 12/10/2013 10:52 AM

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CoolKirby

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Thanks again for the extra information. I've gone with 14% to clear up any confusion that may arise since the any% run gets lower% completion than that.

Posted: 12/11/2013 12:29 AM

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zaphod77

Joined: 1/13/2007
Posts: 335

As i understand it, "glitched" generally means "skips most of the darn game by breaking it to pieces." However, if there is some other reasonable branch name for it,it gets used instead. A movie can have "heavy glitch abuse" and yet play about the same percentage of the game. Such movies aren't "glitched", they are simple any%s. Even if no other branch exists yet, I believe that if there'a any reasonable chance a movie that forgoes that much game breaking and shortening could still be entertaining, the "glitched" tag should be present, even if it's the only current branch. In other words, it implies that a non glitched branch should exist too.

Posted: 12/11/2013 12:34 AM

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Radiant

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zaphod77 wrote:

As i understand it, "glitched" generally means "skips most of the darn game by breaking it to pieces."

No, that's what "TAS" means :D

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Posted: 12/11/2013 2:48 AM

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jlun2

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zaphod77 wrote:

As i understand it, "glitched" generally means "skips most of the darn game by breaking it to pieces."

That, or because the whole game itself is already glitched. ;) Oh, and don't forget these glitchless/warpless movies.

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 12/11/2013 9:51 AM

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Warp

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Are there any entries of the "glitched" category that aren't also the main default WR "fastest any%" entry (ie. the main unnamed branch)? (I apologize if this has been discussed already, but I haven't been following the thread extremely closely...)

Posted: 12/12/2013 4:26 PM

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Radiant

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Warp wrote:

Are there any entries of the "glitched" category that aren't also the main default WR "fastest any%" entry (ie. the main unnamed branch)?

Nope. The term "glitched" isn't used in branch names any more, because nobody has been able to provide an objective and workable definition of "glitched" that is different from "any%". "Any%" or the default unlabeled branch for any game is the fastest run of that game, and can use all known glitches. Runs that show off more of the game at the expense of being slower use their branch name to explain how they're different (e.g. "no warps" or "no inventory glitch"). Since this second group also tends to use glitches, the term "glitched" is no longer in use as a branch name.

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Posted: 12/14/2013 9:49 PM
(Edited: 4/17/2014 8:42 PM)

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Radiant

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There are currently three movies in Vault Tier that are not "any%" or "100%". Since the Vault Tier criteria indicate that only these goals should be in that tier, I suggest that these three be moved to Moon Tier.

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Posted: 12/15/2013 8:15 PM

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zaphod77

Joined: 1/13/2007
Posts: 335

The "glitched" branch is generally used when an any% that does not use the particular glitch that totally breaks the game also exists. However if the non glitched branch does not exist yet, but would be entertaining if it did exist, then the "glitched" branch name should remain.

Posted: 12/16/2013 3:53 AM

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jlun2

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zaphod77 wrote:

The "glitched" branch is generally used when an any% that does not use the particular glitch that totally breaks the game also exists. However if the non glitched branch does not exist yet, but would be entertaining if it did exist, then the "glitched" branch name should remain.

Why? Wouldn't the gltiched run be treated as an any%, and instead the glitchless run be labelled as a branch? Since the only reason why those would exist (assuming post vault rules) is because it was deemed entertaining enough to warrent a moon tier or higher, which can have other goals as long as it keeps the viewers going.

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 12/16/2013 9:46 AM

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Radiant

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zaphod77 wrote:

The "glitched" branch is generally used when an any% that does not use the particular glitch that totally breaks the game also exists.

Well, this is precisely why we have had this discussion. Some people thought that "any%" means "the best looking run" and that "glitched" means "the fastest run". However, this is incorrect. By definition, "any%" means "the fastest run", and we have Moon Tier and Star Tier for the best looking runs. That is not something we arbitrarily made up; the term "any%" is older than this site. Also, "the run that shows off most of the game" is known as "100%" (or e.g. "all souls", "all levels", "all stars" etc).

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Posted: 12/17/2013 5:31 PM

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ais523

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SDA uses the reasonably consistent name "no large skips", which is also pretty descriptive, for runs that avoid glitches that completely break the game but otherwise try to complete it as fast as possible. (The actual definition of large skips is debated on a case by case basis for each game, but normally a game's community has already agreed on it before the issue even comes up at SDA.) A loose definition that applies to many games is "a large skip is something that sequence breaks the overworld"; for instance, in Super Mario 64, this would involve going past a star door without enough stars or key door without the right key, or in Super Metroid, this would involve entering Tourian without defeating four bosses. Sometimes it's hard to gauge exactly what that means, though.