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Former player
Joined: 8/17/2004
Posts: 377
The submitted run looks great. This opens up a few other possible Zero Mission runs, though, a 100% run would be neat to watch. So would a 9% run (lowest possible percentage you can beat the game on) There's also the issue of Hard Mode, which would be certainly interesting to watch. A 9% run on Hard Mode would be a feat, even for a Time Attack. (you certainly won't own Mecha Ridley then, with only 2 missles!) But the problem with Hard Mode is that it needs a pre-defined save ram in order to access it, not sure how the rules go for that. Unless there's a code I'm unaware of to access it. The same goes for Metroid Fusion (Japanese Version).
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
I've started my next version, with the non-laggy emulator. I just felt like banging something out and as a result I didn't get very far before a route decision came up and I had to stop to do some calculations. I am current 449 frames ahead after the first boss (charge beam beast). How's that for improvement?
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2623
I'm glad you decided to make another version. I refrained from voting last time, because although it was a worthy run the lagging really broke the mood, but I couldn't bring myself to vote meh or no. Noice jorb!
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Well right now i'm working on a Kraid first run. If it's not as fast as I think it should be, i'll redo the Ridley first one. So I guess you might be seeing 2 more.
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Honestly, after watching your Ridley-first run, it looked like you saved so much time doing it in that order that getting the speed booster first couldn't possibly make up for it, but maybe you'll find something surprisingly faster. Also, I had a question: In your Ridley-first run, when you use a speed boost to fly straight up, did you test whether it's really faster to do that? It looks like perfect wall-jumping up the shaft would actually be faster because that doesn't require running into another room, running back out to get the boost, the 2 extra screen transitions those involve, the small delay for the boost to start, the long delay waiting for you to recover from slamming into the ceiling, and backtracking down a bit from there to get to the next door.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Sorry, but i'm not sure which shinespark your talking about... The one right after Kraid doesn't enter any extra rooms to charge... The shinespark after that (to the left) is required as the zipline isn't powered up.
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
He means your first shinespark, the vertical one. Would saving the charge, ascending up the shaft by jumping means, and then doing the shinespark across the lava save any time? You enter a different room in order to charge a new shine for the zipline room, and apparently that takes a questionable amount of time...
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Oh, I must be mixing some of them up, sorry. I meant wherever you use it to move straight up, because your movement in that direction seems to be so fast anyway and doesn't require crushing your head on a block for a while. (And yes, I was also considering that it could then be put to use afterward moving horizontally.)
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Well I would consider it possible to save the charge for that long, as it is a loooonnng way up that shaft. Although it might be possible if I managed to shoot out a block just as I was getting to it, then grip on it instantly and jump up further and repeat. I don't think this would be possible without highjump however. Even with it I don't think it's possible. I'll test it later when i'm in the mood to fight with the game for frames.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Some people (you know who you are) have brought up that I don't use every known trick or what have you, but there is a reason. Well, unless it's some "brand new trick that i'm keeping secret for my own benefit" which I don't know about. For example, there is the new 'timesaver' where you walljump up and clear some of the crumble blocks so you don't need to backtrack to get a super missile before Ridley. It has been said that the backtracking before Ridley wastes 20 seconds. For people who don't know what i'm talking about i've provided a nice little picture of it, complete with extremely messy routes drawn onto it. The green being the route I took, and the orange being the "new and improved route". Both start in the upper left corner near the 'S', and end on the right hand side of the screen; where they continue out of that world. The distance spent backtracking can be seen between the two cyan bars, as every other movement is being done in both routes. It's not really that far, definately not twenty seconds worth of running. It's actually about the same length as one room. Now as pointed out, if you don't backtrack to get the super missiles before the Ridley fight with only 30 missiles and 2 super missiles. Not enough to kill Ridley. So one needs to wait for Ridley to shoot his large fireballs and kill one for a super missile. You will notice that in my current run I kill him before he even manages to shoot any. I would have had to wait about another second or two for him to fire any, waited ~2 (or more) seconds to get down to a level where I could possibly hope reaching them, and finally 1-2 seconds collecting and firing the missiles. Next the orange route needs to wall jump up, destroy crumble blocks, and then finally jump off other crumble blocks to get back up the missles. Each WALL JUMP wastes about 5 frames due to animation. You need probably atleast 6 walljumps (I cannot remember off hand for some reason), wasting another half second. YES I AM AWARE I NEED TO SPEND TIME CLIMBING THE SAME DISTANCE IN THE GREEN ROUTE ANYWAYS. However during that time i'm using grip to climb, that wastes 0 frames up upward movement. Unlike walljumping. Also, the act of crumbling the blocks themselves and jumping up and around takes atleast 5 seconds. Finally we have to look at the aftermath. The green route has pretty smooth sailing, no real enemies in the way, and not too many jumps. So you keep your maximum running speed all the way through. The upper route is infested with hoppers, and you need to be jumping constantly. After the fight with Ridley I would have been very low on rockets, and would need to be saving for Kraid. This means that I would need to take damage on the hoppers, which loses alot of time. All the jumping causes you to lose all your speed too, for each jump you need to spend time building up your running speed, and acceleration DOES use alot of time. Better awareness of Samus's running acceleration is how i've managed to save most of the time on my new NON-LAGGY version. So far i've save ~8 seconds on a 2 minute section of video from it. Sorry, but when I take all of the facts into consideration I dont' see this new discovery as a time saver... Either way, it doesn't matter now. As i've said i'm working on a new route which isn't based on GameCube04's at all. After i'm done I plan on getting this thing done in under 20 minutes.
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
If I were you, I would keep to the green route. Super missles are valuable enough to grab, and you can recharge them at Kraid by using the Chozo Statue holding Unknown Item. Jumping up and over the pillar, to me, is faster than doing the wall jump scramble. Greetings from M2K2 >_<
Joined: 3/4/2005
Posts: 28
delete this post, I know you can't post that thing on the forum itself, this is why I specified PM The reason I asked is that I've asked before for a PM link and everything went fine Oh well... you're right anyway so why bother </sarcasm>
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Mr. Aran wrote:
If I were you, I would keep to the green route. Super missles are valuable enough to grab, and you can recharge them at Kraid by using the Chozo Statue holding Unknown Item. Jumping up and over the pillar, to me, is faster than doing the wall jump scramble. Greetings from M2K2 >_<
Welcome, and thanks for your input. Anything helps, no matter how small or insignificant one thinks it may possibly be. I do appreciate you coming, and am glad to see that someone was mellow enough and decided to follow the link posted and give some sort of feedback, without me even asking. I've been attempting to take a small break, but i've had a hard time keeping the game out of my head, so i'll give a small update of my thoughts: Now that i've done some preliminary work on the next version of the run it seems that breaking 20 minutes might be easier than I first though. The lag seems to have a much greater effect on the speed of the run than I thought, and without it beleive I would have been close to 20 minutes. On top of that I admit that I rushed the end of the run, and it is possible that there up to a minute, or possibly slightly more that can be saved there. I also have a better knowledge of Samus's acceleration and jumping, which will save a hand full of frames here and there. Anyways too the more improtant improvement, which is the route. As it stands right now I beleive that killing Kraid first may be quite a bit faster. Killing him with 3 quick super missiles will only be roughly 150 frames faster than killing him with regular ones. This would, of course, allow me to have speed booster in ridley, which opens the window for quite a bit of saved time. Here is a list of things which I am currently testing: - Alternate super missile location. Is it faster than backtracking? Would it save time to get 6 before Mother Brain to eliminate backtracking to fill up again? - Alternate missile locations. This is extremely important if i'm doing Kraid first, as I will want 20 before I enter his room. Also would it be worth getting an extra one or two to save backtracking at Mother Brain? - How much slower is the zipline room without morphjump? Ontop of that, is it faster to bomb myself onto the blocks, or horizontal bomb jump across? This will be hard to test, as getting the "perfect" horizontal bomb jump is quite difficult, I always end up wasting time doing it. - A few shinesparks. See how much time they saved, and if some are even possible. I'll provide more details of the points as I look into them more, but in the mean time if anyone has ANY ideas which they think might save a few frames here or there let me know, and I will test it. Even if it's not directly related to my run, anything which will help out future runs, emulated or console is worth mentioning to me to be tested.
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
Concerning the Super Missile that can only be gotten with Speedbooster and High Jump. (http://www.metroid2002.com/0/early_super_brinstar_1.php) This may help you if you got Kraid first and return from Ridley. The way he gets the missile on the video is far from optimal. The instant you hit the slope in the middle room, duck to get another shine spark, roll a few pixel right and do another super jump to the left. Will save you a few seconds over the video and you'll get a free super missile for mother brain. I've got a recording of a realtime execution of this somewhere... I'll see if I can find it...
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Yeah, that was a super missle I was testing. I have to test how much time is lost but shinesparking to the left there, rather than upward and just continueing to Mother Brain. Then if saves enough time to be worth it. I could also attempt to get that one instead of backtracking for the one near Ridley. I have a feeling that i'll be losing alot of time by getting that one though.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Ok, for a while people have been asking me on IRC to give an update on what is happening with the run. So here are some of the test videos I have recorded. This is only a small sample of what i've been testing, but I think it's enough to satisfy the people who wanted to know what was happening. This does not include anything to do with the new glitch i've found, as I haven't found a place where it would actually do anything to help yet. Although I am closer to getting it to do something for me than I was before. To the clips provided. None of these are final version, none of them are perfect. All of them can be improved. Beyond that, they might not even appear in the final version of the run. I did try to give everyone clips which were not completely useless. The missile test clip is of the fastest collection of a missile tank which gives me 20 missiles before Kraid. It's quite a bit faster than all the other missiles (~300 frames), and also looks the most impressive. So I guess that is good. However i've almost made up my mind that I will not be getting 20 missiles before Kraid, so I cannot see this making the final cut. The zipline test clip actually gives me the greatest confidence that Kraid would actually be faster to do first than Ridley. This room is the biggest time waste in doing Kraid first, but I managed to get through it pretty quickly. This clip can probably be improved quite a lot, as while through the whole room there could be minor improvements. I think I might be able to make the last bombjump without needing the walljump. Which would save a bunch of time. The last clip i've including is probably the one that most people would consider the impressive; even though it shouldn't come as much of a surprise. There really there is nothing to say about it...
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 748
Hows this run doing?
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Well, I was up to entering Norfair after killing Kraid, but I have to redo a bunch of stuff, not sure how much yet. I was about 610 frames faster after the first boss, and ~850 where the two routes diverted from each other, but I also picked up an extra missle expansion in that time, which takes atleast 600-700 frames.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
I went all the way back and started from the near beginning, and have saved about 100 frames up to the death of the first boss. Unfortunately the enemies in the shaft are now in a much worse position, so I am going to need to experiment to get it do be less horrible.
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
How's this going? Are you still on it BoltR?
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Even though you caught me on IRC a while back, i'll post it here too. I still am working on this run, but I have been very busy lately, and haven't been working on it lately. The new version is 911 frames faster where the new and the old published routes divide, and ~160 faster than my last version at that point.
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 748
Phew, I am glad. Thought you had given up. Now all I need is new info on the Fusion 0% run, and the Super Metroid 100% run, and I'll be happy, at least as far as Samus goes. Good luck, and I really hope you get round to finishing this, or at least one of the other of seemingly hundreds of Zero Mission runs youve started.
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Some people might like to know that leaving the room with grip and going to the left - like one would normally do - is faster than than backtracking and going to the right by about 150 frames.
Former player
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 484
Location: ­­
Real time or game time?
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Bladegash wrote:
Real time or game time?
Both, and that is with nearly perfect (it may be possible to get it one or two frames faster) bomb jumping. I suppose it's time for me to stop being lazy, and give an update on the position of my run myself. I have a WIP which reaches Tourain, and as for the question of which is faster: Kraid or Ridley first. I beleive I have the answer. Upon reaching Tourian with my Kraid run I am 35 seconds ahead of my currently published run. Now, the Kraid run has a ton of tiny movement optimizations over the Ridley run, but I beleive they could really only speed up the old run by a MAXIMUM of 10 seconds. This is not a final time however, I think I might be able to change my route a little and gain another 10-12 seconds ingame time. So i'll be looking at doing that over the next few days (or weeks).
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