Topic by Vatchern

Posted: 2/20/2006 2:57 AM

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Vatchern

Player (84)

Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 973
Location: Newfoundland, Canada

Bag of Magic Food wrote:

What about sneaking into the nothingness during the water ride?

But the ride is so long. It loses its potential.

http://tasvideos.org/Vatchern.html

Posted: 2/20/2006 3:54 AM

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I think maybe a good idea would be to have a "recommended for newbies" page and a "best runs" page. There's currently a conflict of interest because the star page also has to take into account other factors such as the popularity of a game. And "best movies (recommended for first time viewers)" is a bit misleading. I agree completely that the number of star videos needed to be reduced. That list doesn't look very comprehensive though, or my memory is bad, because it seems like there used to be a lot more. I'm glad I'm not the only other person who thinks that the wrong SMW run was removed. I am also on the MM1 > MM2 side, but all in all, the choices look good.

Truncated wrote:

- there should be some variation in genres, meaning some platformers, some shooting, some RPGs ... As such, I'm quite satisfied with the current selection.

Why would you be satisfied then if not all genres are represented, i.e. there isn't a single RPG on the list? This includes Secret of Evermore, the unstarred run that I think deserves one the most (if Ouzo ever finishes his Lost Vikings remake, that would be another). To clear room for future runs, all of the runs on the recommended page are deserving of course, but the ones that I would think of removing from the current page are one of Ninja Five-0, Bionic Commando, and Umihara Kawase (definitely not UK, probably Bionic Commando IMHO), one of Arkanoid and Gradius (I would say Gradius because to me it quickly gets boring after a while), LTTP (it's long, and there's the first Zelda already), and replace the SMW.

"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/

Posted: 2/20/2006 3:58 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

I think maybe a good idea would be to have a "recommended for newbies" page and a "best runs" page. There's currently a conflict of interest because the star page also has to take into account other factors such as the popularity of a game. And "best movies (recommended for first time viewers)" is a bit misleading.

Yeah, it seems people are always confusing the two definitions and thinking the best movies are the ones that need stars. I think this would be a good idea and could clear up that misconception as well.

Enhasa wrote:

the ones that I would think of removing from the current page are one of Ninja Five-0, Bionic Commando, and Umihara Kawase

Got something against grappling hooks? ;-)

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 2/20/2006 4:04 PM

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Kyrsimys

Former player

Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland

I guess I'm the only here who thinks that it was a good move to remove S3&K's star. Both published versions of the run are quite boring to me. It's pretty interesting in the beginning but it's just too damn long. I haven't played the game, but a starred movie should have kept me in its grasp regardless. I haven't watched the Sonic 2 runso I can't comment on that aspect. I'm also glad that MM5 got MM1's star. A lot of the fascination of these videos for me come from the impossible maneuvers and impressive stunts the player pulls. However, if I don't know that a certain trick is hard to pull of from my own experience, it just doesn't seem that impressive. The point I'm trying to make here is that watching the MM1 and MM2 runs has nothing to do with how I played the game back when I was a kid. It doesn't seem like the same game anymore. I enjoy watching Morimoto's original MM2 movie a lot more than the current glitched out one.

Posted: 2/21/2006 12:57 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

>Why would you be satisfied then if not all genres are represented, i.e. there isn't a single RPG on the list? This includes Secret of Evermore, the unstarred run that I think deserves one the most (if Ouzo ever finishes his Lost Vikings remake, that would be another). Two of the star movies are listed as RPG: A link to the Past and Legend of Zelda. Even though I enjoyed the Lost Vikings movies so far, it's not at all an RPG, it's a puzzle (possibly slash action) game. You can't even talk to people or explore the world you're in. Not every category is represented (no sports for example, and I can't agree with UK being a sports game), and there's a heavy slant against platformers, but that's because a majority of all the movies on this site are for platformers. I think we need to understand that we will never have a list of recommended movies that everyone can agree 100% on.

Posted: 2/21/2006 3:01 PM
(Edited: 2/21/2006 9:22 PM)

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Enhasa

Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216

I worded that poorly. I wasn't saying that Lost Vikings was an RPG (it is 100% a puzzle game). I just said that I really enjoyed it and thought it would deserve a star once it was redone. I know you can't please everyone. That's why I said "all in all, the choices look good." I'm not too concerned with representing all the genres either, because you can't force a run that doesn't belong. I was just pointing out that you said including some variation like RPGs was good and that you liked the current selection, which IMO has none. A lot of people who like RPGs also like Zelda, but it is pretty much the definition of action/adventure. I know ultimately trying to pigeonhole games into strict genres might be pointless, but c'mon. Circle of the Moon is as much an "RPG" as Zelda. Edit: FWIW, Excitebike could be considered a "sports" game. That's a different discussion though.

"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/

Posted: 2/21/2006 7:47 PM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (278)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Platform puzzle?

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 2/26/2006 11:46 AM

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Dada

Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands

I can understand that you might find Mega Man 5 more interesting than Mega Man 1, but I think that if either of the first two in the series should have a star, it should be the first. The main reason is the fact that it just looks a whole lot smoother, most notably due to the select button glitch. Mega Man 2 has a lot of "ugly" hits, and add to that the fact that its physics engine isn't as abusable as in the first. I still think that the first Mega Man should have a star. On the subject of Sonic 2 versus Sonic 3, I've posted about that one before, so let me copypaste my old post here: Reasons for Sonic 3 to deserve the star: - Run quality very high; the obsoleted version was amazingly impressive, and this one goes beyond the old. - Uses an interesting glitch. - Stylistically pleasing run (SprintGod does a better job at entertaining us at times when he is unable to progress). - Uses Sonic's special powerups very nicely. - Aesthetically pleasing game (in any case more than Sonic 2). Reasons for Sonic 2 to deserve the star: - Run quality very high; Sonic's speed is at its top level in the first levels of this run. - Finishes faster than SprintGod--run is therefore shorter in both length and filesize. - Uses what appears to be a wall omission glitch in Oil Ocean zone 2. However, some reasons why I doubt that Sonic 2 would be best off having a star: - Tails is in this run, and he's completely useless. He even gets hit a couple of times even though this has no effect on the game. This isn't desirable. It's less "clean" than the Sonic 3 run. - At times, it would have been better for Quietust to have waited a few time units before finishing the level in order to get a lower input time. This run isn't as optimized as Sonic 3 is, because Sonic 3 doesn't suffer from these situations. - The sky scene is REALLY boring. - Knuckles isn't present in this run.

Posted: 5/6/2006 7:51 PM

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jimsfriend

Former player

Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign

Why a green star? I think a pink star would be more fitting. Unless green means it's just a candidate.

Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign aqfaq Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign

Posted: 5/6/2006 8:11 PM

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notBowen

Joined: 12/2/2005
Posts: 139
Location: New York, United States

The file name for the star is toppub.png, does this mean it's the top publication? Best movie? What?

What's a man like me supposed to do with all this extra savoir-faire?

Posted: 5/6/2006 8:15 PM

Post subject: Re: the turquoise star

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

notBowen wrote:

The file name for the star is toppub.png, does this mean it's the top publication? Best movie? What?

As opposed to the all-time recommended movies' star,

,

is a star given to publications that stand out from the list of other movies recently published. It is only used by the MovieChangelog module, not the movie pages.

Posted: 5/7/2006 2:33 PM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

I don't think this will be able to catch up and be one of the most downloaded movies unless it gets a star. (The green thing it has now isn't a star, it does not show up in the 'best movies' section). I think this should get a star: The previous version had a star (although it was removed after a while) The previous version was the most downloaded avi on the site This is better than the previous version It doesn't even need comparison to the previous version to warrant a star in its own right: Its speed is without compromise It is played in an entertaining way It is of a classic game that most people have nostalgia for.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 5/7/2006 3:09 PM

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Tub

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377

well, there's the "only 1 star per game"-quota, and there's already a star at the 96 exit run. The question is not if this run is star-material, the question is whether this run or the 96-star-run deserves the star most.

m00

Posted: 5/7/2006 9:42 PM

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flagitious

Player (200)

Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511

Tub wrote:

well, there's the "only 1 star per game"-quota, and there's already a star at the 96 exit run. The question is not if this run is star-material, the question is whether this run or the 96-star-run deserves the star most.

That's a good rule, I didn't know about it. This run deserves the star because it incorperates several new techniques and because the other run is too long. Not to say the 96 exit run is bad or has less effort put into it (infact the opposite is true), but in my opinion it is impossible to keep someone entertained watching the same game for over 20 minutes, unless they are some sort of expert at the game and enjoy the game to a deeper level, but most of the general public does not meet this criteria. Since Fabian is working on a remake of the 96 exit, there will be another time for this decision to be finalized, but meanwhile this run deserves the spotlight.

g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}

Posted: 5/7/2006 9:48 PM

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hopper

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 804
Location: Canada

I don't see why there should only be one star per game. I don't think two runs of the same game that are of similar length should both have stars (like the different objectives of beating Metroid/Super Metroid that are all any% or low% where the difference is what beams are collected or bosses are skipped), but if an any% run is 10 minutes and a 100% run is an hour, and both are amazing, why shouldn't they both have a star? To me, they're different enough that they should both be recommended.

TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.

Posted: 5/7/2006 11:15 PM

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Tub

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377

flagitious wrote:

That's a good rule, I didn't know about it.

there are no written rules for stars, but it's observable if you followed star-discussions on previous runs. long runs vs. short runs is always a matter of taste, let's not go there. To me the 96-exit run had enough variety to watch it more often than the pure speedruns. But again, that's just my taste. Also, please remember that stars aren't given as rewards to the author, or as an acknowledgment to new discoveries. Stars are awarded as recommendations for first-time-viewers. Those have a different perspective on runs than we do. Can you imagine a first-timer saying "wow, I like how he avoided fade-out-lag there" ? Me neither. I wouldn't know which of the two runs should get the star, but I like bisqwit's solution with the nifty green star.

m00

Posted: 5/7/2006 11:33 PM

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Xkeeper

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850

hopper wrote:

I don't see why there should only be one star per game. I don't think two runs of the same game that are of similar length should both have stars (like the different objectives of beating Metroid/Super Metroid that are all any% or low% where the difference is what beams are collected or bosses are skipped), but if an any% run is 10 minutes and a 100% run is an hour, and both are amazing, why shouldn't they both have a star? To me, they're different enough that they should both be recommended.

Who knows. There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about the almighty

. A movie must lose a star for another to gain it. False. If that was the case, we would have very few starred movies, and new movies are starred without one losing it. Only one run can have a star, per game. Also false. There was a time that both SMW runs had them. --- I think most people just fail to understand that length alone does not determine movie quality. The Super Demo World TLC movie weighs in at over 1:30:00, and it's an excellent watch simply because of how beautiful the game is and how entertianing the runner made it. Longer != less entertaining. Personally, I move for a lot of the star switcherooing to be undone (SonAdv2's star to Son&Knu, SDW-120), and I also second (or third, or fourth...) the request for both SMW runs to have one. <shrug>

Perma-banned

Posted: 5/8/2006 3:56 AM

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Enhasa

Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216

Well I also wondered about the green star. It's probably too much to expect people to realize that there are 2 different colored stars that mean different things. I think that maybe the best icon for a notable movie would be something like an exclamation mark, although keeping with the celestial body and SMW item theme, perhaps the crescent moon from SMW would be a good icon. Also I think more could be done to mark the published movies that are technical demonstrations. Maybe that exclamation mark from before? Dunno, just throwing out ideas. As for this run not getting a (yellow) star, I actually thought the previous obsoleted short SMW should have already had the long SMW's star. Not only is it shorter and this route is iconic, if you look at the levels that are in both versions, it's no contest. The long run doesn't even bounce off the p-switch in the first castle for instance. It's one thing if the next version of the long run will be the most star-worthy, as JXQ says, but at this moment, I think this version is obviously the best.

"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/

Posted: 5/8/2006 5:26 AM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

Everyone, Regarding the star debate, I've been hoping to have an in-depth discussion thread with Bisqwit about what he's looking for in star runs for a while now. Hopefully that discussion could lead to discussing some specific cases where there seem to be disagreements (for example S&K3 and this movie). FWIW I think it's just fine as it is, I don't mind the choices he makes. I think it'd be cool to be able to discuss it with him though. About this movie, while I too think it deserves a star, if flagitious and VIPer7's movie did not get one, I don't see this movie getting one. This run isn't much better than theirs, which is not a bash at JXQ (as he knows), it's just that the previous version was fantastic. As I've said in #nesvideos once or twice though, I prefer full runs to shorter runs in general, so for me personally I don't really mind the longer one having the star, if only one of the movies can have one. Phil, "Fabian: The guy that voted NO doesn't need to justify. He voted NO. That's simple as this." That's your opinion and I expressed mine (that it's a good thing to explain etc, what I wrote in my earlier post). That's it. "Oh and more seriously, since you love to bash at people when you think they are wrong, I think the guy did a good choice to not post." Wouldn't this show some serious lack of confidence, all other things aside? "It's really difficult to defend an opinion with people like you." I take that as a compliment, even though it wasn't intended as one. Don't feel like you have to respond btw, there's not much to respond to.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 5/8/2006 6:27 AM

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Enhasa

Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216

Well I don't think any of us feels like any of the current star movies are short of amazing, or that it even really matters, but clarification can't hurt. You might like full runs, but some people like me actually like the shorter runs better since there's less repetition, usually more route planning (not in this case), usually more difficulty (not in this case either though), and so forth. Also it would take less time for a newbie to watch (who would be sampling a lot of the star page perhaps), and might be less confusing. "Why didn't you take the Star Road shortcut?" etc. This is probably just my personal bias against 100% runs though. On SDA, maybe part of this is sucking up, but everyone spooges over marsh's warpless SMB3 and barely acknowledged Sleepz's warp run (other than alleging that it was a TAS I guess). I actually liked Sleepz's run more because it was MUCH better at levels they both did, and with that, there was even the issue of endurance with warps vs no warps. Here, endurance isn't an issue, so I can't think of any argument other than "I like to see all the levels." Which is valid of course.

Phil wrote:

Oh and I won't post or read this thread anymore after today. Those are just my final words.

Hey, Fabian, catch this? Just saying. =p

"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/

Posted: 5/8/2006 6:35 AM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

We're on the same page Enhasa. I've said it before, I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority on the whole any% vs full issue. I've seen people say they're done with a discussion but pick it up again more than once before. It doesn't exactly surprise me when it happens anymore. But yes I did catch that :)

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

Posted: 5/8/2006 10:15 AM

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hopper

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 804
Location: Canada

I generally prefer any% runs because a) they are done absolutely as quickly as possible, and b) I don't have the patience or the time to watch really long movies. Sometimes I wait weeks before watching a 100% run of a game I really want to see, and sometimes I start, have to stop in order to eat dinner or go to sleep, and never finish. A 100% run has to be pretty darned awesome before I'll look forward to it more than an any% run. The only 100% run I'm really excited about right now is FODA's 120 star SM64 run. I expect that newbies also aren't going to invest an hour into watching a movie on their first visit, so I tend to think that we should recommend movies such as this one before warpless runs, but if they're both awesome and sufficiently different (like this run and the 96 star run), I think they should both be recommended and we'll let the viewer decide whether he wants to invest 10 minutes or an hour.

TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.

Posted: 5/8/2006 10:24 AM
(Edited: 5/8/2006 10:31 AM)

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (296)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

/me reminds everyone that… oh well, I'll just move the posts to the right thread. Edit: The most recent discussion in this thread comes from JXQ's SMW movie thread.

Posted: 5/8/2006 10:27 AM

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Baxter

Skilled player (1402)

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821

Hopper wrote:

I generally prefer any%

This run wasn't an any% right? I always thought any% was something different than a warp run...

http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html

Posted: 5/8/2006 10:43 AM

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Fabian

Former player

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711

Nice initiative Bisqwit. I hope you will give some consideration to my request/wish of you participating in the discussion, perhaps both in general and in the case of specific movies/disagreements. After all, you're the only person who matters in this discussion and without you we can talk ourselves to death without knowing if it's making any difference.

Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk

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