Topic by upthorn

Posted: 5/28/2006 5:37 PM

Quote

upthorn

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Active player (388)

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802

gbagcn wrote:

So what determines the height you get when using the Sonic/Cream tag action after jumping off ground that isn't sloped?

From what nitsuja says, it sounds like the height of the Sonic/Cream tag action is determined by how high sonic would normally jump. When sonic isn't on a slope, his speed doesn't affect his jump height. So the Sonic/Cream tag action will always give the same height when you're not on a slope. Well, unless boost mode lets you jump higher

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 5/28/2006 7:18 PM

Quote

nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

OK, sorry for taking so many posts to say this, but the trick to get maximum height from Cream's tag action is to activate the tag action as soon after starting a jump as possible (before you even get off of the ground is best), instead of near the peak of the jump. This is because it works by doubling your current upward velocity, and you are moving upward fastest at the instant you start jumping, so activating it then gives the biggest upward boost. That's also why you can use it at the bottom of any upward spring to basically shoot to the top of the level, because it takes the already-high spring velocity and doubles it to something ridiculous. It doesn't matter how fast you're moving horizontally; the only reason that matters on slopes is because it affects your normal jump in that case, which in turn affects the boost. The boost height seems random if you don't always activate the boost at a consistent time in the jump, but this is what I meant by "if you get the timing right". In a non-TAS it's difficult to get the absolute maximum height every time, but it's easy to get very close to it once you know the trick. NOTE: I said it works by doubling your speed, but it also tries adding some small amount to it instead, and it uses whichever one is better. That's why you still get a tiny upward boost if you use it while falling, instead of it making you fall twice as fast.

Posted: 5/29/2006 5:30 PM

Quote

bobxp

Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England

I was bored some more, so here's my pathetic run up to and including the Zone 3 boss. (I'll stop posting them when someone actually makes a serious run, but you never know, there might be some lurker around that wants to see a run of the game no matter how bad it is :P )

Posted: 8/13/2006 12:10 PM
(Edited: 8/16/2006 6:12 AM)

Quote

Quartz

Joined: 8/13/2006
Posts: 11

Well, no one's posted in a bit... But I guess I should throw in my two cents. Sonic/Cream isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure there's instantaneous launching, but it's missing the most crucial thing... R-tricks. That's the thing that can make or break flow. I've studied a bit, and the only place Sonic/Cream is actually the most efficient is-- EDIT: NOT Toy Kingdom 1. That's a Sonic-tag-partner level, as far as I know. Cyber Track 2 works, though, as far as I know.

Posted: 8/13/2006 9:08 PM
(Edited: 8/18/2006 7:55 PM)

Quote

nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Still, I think they could be faster than Sonic+Tails in one or two of the later levels. Tricks aren't always crucial. (Maybe you're right, but I won't trust that sort of thing without trying it myself first.) EDIT: By the way, thanks for putting up all those videos, they should be extremely helpful... EDIT2: Tails+Sonic beats Sonic+Tails on Route 99 Act 2! Optimized Sonic+Tails was 0'40''72, whereas optimized Tails+Sonic was 0'39''47 despite seeming hopeless at first. That means it won't be necessary to switch characters at all anywhere in the first zone since Tails+Sonic is faster at all three zones and the boss fight.

Posted: 8/14/2006 12:30 AM

Quote

Quartz

Joined: 8/13/2006
Posts: 11

Yeah, perhaps. But with the course layouts as they are, there can be a loss. Especially Chaos Angel, where some points need maximum height from Tails's tag action. But I may be wrong, and if I am, feel free to prove it. Especially since I only see the grasp of stuff in a non-tool situation. Also, Cyber Track 2 is a place where Sonic/Cream can beat out Sonic/Tails by at least one or two seconds. This further proves that I can be wrong, though I'm speaking with experience in mind when I say this stuff. I'm doubting Chaos Angel 1, but Chaos Angel 2 may be possible.

Posted: 8/19/2006 7:20 AM

Quote

nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

I am wondering... which characters are worth getting, if the goal is to minimize the sum of the in-level times without repeating any level? My guess is that Knuckles and Amy are not worth getting and that Cream is worth getting. I tried TASing Chaos Angel 1 with Sonic+Cream I and got 1:11:55. which isn't as much faster as I expected, but might be enough when combined with using Cream on Cyber Track 2 and maybe Chaos Angel 2.

Posted: 8/19/2006 9:26 AM
(Edited: 8/19/2006 2:16 PM)

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (433)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

When it comes to TASing, you simply are amazing nitsuja. Please finish someday your run as then you'll have all 3 records :)

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 8/19/2006 10:05 AM

Quote

nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Well if anyone wants to see what I have so far, I put it here. If you see a mistake or can think of a possible improvement in those levels (or in-between levels for that matter) let me know. Also, not much more can be done without finally deciding which characters to get, which I'm looking for input on. The problem is that the only way to unlock a character is to beat a certain level (2-3 Knuckles, 4-3 Amy, 6-3 Cream) with Sonic as the leader, which will make that level slower than having Sonic as the partner.

Posted: 8/19/2006 2:12 PM

Quote

Paused

Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 748

Not sure if I am doing something wrong, but I am having troubles playing that movie. When I try to play it I am told that it "is not in proper VBM format." I agree that Amy is useless, though Knux may have his uses. I was wondering if Sonic+Knuckles would be able to down the last Eggman faster than Cream though. Sonic's up+B in that combo does something of a double jump, which would be able to hit the weakpoint whenever it is vunerable, with out having the drawback of having to wait for Cheese to be able to attack again when using Cream. Only be a small time saver though, and I guess his only other use is knocking down walls that get in your way quickly. Edit: Or you could just use Tails, tails when flying to do the same. Nevermind.

Posted: 8/19/2006 4:15 PM

Quote

Neclea

Joined: 3/5/2005
Posts: 47
Location: Italy

that file is 0 byte ;)

<Neclea>Gavin Ward <Sprint>WHAT? WHERE? <oldskoolgamer101>What a stupid name! oldskoolgamer101 was kicked from # soniccenter by Sprint [ says you , kimpy ]

Posted: 8/19/2006 5:36 PM

Quote

moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

Hmm, you're right. :\

nitsuja wrote:

Well if anyone wants to see what I have so far, I put it here. If you see a mistake or can think of a possible improvement in those levels (or in-between levels for that matter) let me know.

Does that mean that Nitsuja doesn't have anything so far?!

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 8/19/2006 6:35 PM
(Edited: 8/19/2006 10:53 PM)

Quote

nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Sorry, I forgot that it's impossible to make a zip file of a movie while VBA is playing it, and that WinRAR [version 3.0.0] sucks too much to give any error when compression fails. Try that link again. EDIT: Also, here is Chaos Angel 1 with Sonic+Cream.

Posted: 8/19/2006 10:43 PM

Quote

moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

nitsuja wrote:

Sorry, I forgot that it's impossible to make a zip file of a movie while VBA is playing it, and that WinRAR sucks too much to give any error when compression fails.

Uh, it may be some arcane version you're using, but at least 3.60 gives me a "cannot open <blah> another process <blah>" error. And I believe I got it while using older 3.x versions as well. As for the movies, both of them look very sweet to me (probably because I'm familiar with GBA Sonic games only on a basic level to say anything else). Boss fight looked somewhat strange, but knowing your persistence in frame hunting, I believe it actually is perfect. :) Looking forward to the rest of the run once you finish deciding what character combination is the best (too bad you can't change them before each act).

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 8/19/2006 10:58 PM

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (433)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Wow very nice WIP. I love speed and I this run offered that all the time. Compared with your Sonic advance 2 run, I enjoyed this more as I obviously could see you :)

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 8/19/2006 10:59 PM

Quote

nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

moozooh wrote:

Boss fight looked somewhat strange

Which part / what about it?

moozoh wrote:

(too bad you can't change them before each act).

They can be changed before each act. It takes time to do it but if it makes it faster inside the act then it's worth doing. Only Sonic and Tails are available from the start, though.

Posted: 8/19/2006 11:09 PM
(Edited: 8/20/2006 3:29 AM)

Quote

moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

nitsuja wrote:

Which part / what about it?

Nothing serious — I just couldn't grasp the vulnerability/invulnerability pattern and the exact place to hit it in its second part.

nitsuja wrote:

They can be changed before each act. It takes time to do it but if it makes it faster inside the act then it's worth doing. Only Sonic and Tails are available from the start, though.

Ah, that's why I thought so. Well, personally, I'd go for in-game time since it's more impressive to see each level beaten as fast as possible even though the amount of time spent inbetween will turn out greater, IMO. EDIT: Wow, 3 unnoticed typos in one short post. I break my own records!

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 8/19/2006 11:49 PM

Quote

LodeRunner

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 29

I just saw the new wip and it looks amazing, Nitsuja. You're probably itching to run around the 2nd boss arena aren't you?

Posted: 8/20/2006 12:40 AM

Quote

mike89

Active player (301)

Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia

It's a shame you only get Cream for the last level of the game... Anyway, I think that the Knuckles+Sonic combination should not be underestimated. Probably test with it first, but his headbutt attack combined with a Sonic boost is pretty quick. However, I'd write Amy off pretty quickly.

Posted: 8/20/2006 1:51 AM
(Edited: 8/20/2006 5:31 AM)

Quote

nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

[deleted]

Posted: 8/20/2006 2:20 AM
(Edited: 8/20/2006 3:38 PM)

Quote

nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

I didn't make the above post; there must have been some error with the forum....

mike89 wrote:

It's a shame you only get Cream for the last level of the game...

Levels in a zone can be done out of order, so Cream can also be used in Cyber Track 1 and 2.

mike89 wrote:

Anyway, I think that the Knuckles+Sonic combination should not be underestimated. Probably test with it first, but his headbutt attack combined with a Sonic boost is pretty quick.

The headbutt doesn't increase speed past normal jumping speed, even in boost mode, and it takes a while to animate, so that move would be relatively useless.

LodeRunner wrote:

[something that got deleted]

I'm guessing that Tails' high jump is faster than climbing with Knuckles on 3-1.

moozooh wrote:

I just couldn't grasp the vulnerability/invulnerablitiy pattern and the exact place to hit it in its second part.

Well it turns blue whenever it's not taking damage, so it's clear it was always hit as soon as it became vulnerable. The location to hit is the top part in the center, but Tails can also damage that through the bottom sometimes.

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:19 AM

Quote

upthorn

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Active player (388)

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802

I believe that http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/85668 was posted by Oddity, and belongs in the Super Metroid thread on the SNES games board (based on "<NesVideoAgent> New reply by Oddity (SNES: Super Metroid): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/85668")

How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

Posted: 8/20/2006 1:49 PM

Quote

LodeRunner

Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 29

Actually, that might have been my post that got deleted. I was talking about a particularly long shaft on level 3-1, which is usually only accessible with knuckle's slow climbing. But if you can manage it with Tails, that would make all the difference.

Posted: 8/20/2006 11:58 PM

Quote

Quartz

Joined: 8/13/2006
Posts: 11

Oh no, LodeRunner. Act 1 of Ocean Base can definitely be ascended easily with Tails's tag action, and without even going near the skinny shaft. The secret relies on the fact that if you fall, you don't just fall lower, you fall backwards, losing progress. Now just reverse that at a vital point, and you shave seconds off. I know it can go below 37 seconds. Also, that Chaos Angel 1 run's pretty cool. Though there's no way I'm gonna do that in real time... Unless I have to. Also, it seems even the TAS run can't compare to Knuckles/Amy... But of course, since they're locked, that won't help... And I've only seen that team used there and Chaos Angel 3... Hm... maybe check Chaos Angel 3 on that account?

Posted: 8/21/2006 6:34 AM

Quote

nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1301)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Quartz wrote:

Also, that Chaos Angel 1 run's pretty cool.

Maybe my Chaos Angel 1 Sonic+Cream route wasn't so great after all. I made a map of that act and marked 3 different possible route changes I saw on it:

EDIT: With some minor changes, that route gave a time of 1:00:60, and I found a way to do the start a little faster, so maybe sub-1-minute Chaos Angel 1 is possible. Also, here is a map of the next level, Ocean Base 1, which I still have to find a route through:

Quartz wrote:

Also, it seems even the TAS run can't compare to Knuckles/Amy... But of course, since they're locked, that won't help... And I've only seen that team used there and Chaos Angel 3... Hm... maybe check Chaos Angel 3 on that account?

Ugh, let's see, here are some estimates...

Getting Knuckles: Lose 3 seconds.
Getting Amy: Lose 12 seconds.
Getting Cream: Lose 12 seconds.
Using Knuckles and Amy on Chaos Angel 3: Gain 28 seconds?
or Using Cream and Amy on Chaos Angel 3: Gain 15 seconds?
Using Cream on Cyber Track 2: Gain 6 seconds?
Using Cream on Chaos Angel 1: Gain 16 seconds?
Using Cream on Chaos Angel 2: Gain 6 seconds?

I think I'll change my goals so that I get all of the characters and play 2-3, 4-3, and 6-3 twice (once to get the character and again later to beat it with the best combination). It would be a shame to not use K+A on Sunset Hill 3 and Chaos Angel 3.