1 2
5 6 7
10 11
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
By the way, isn't it interesting how much competition can reduce the time of a level like this? The current record is already more than one minute faster than your original record... I wonder how many of the other levels could be equivalently reduced...
Post subject: Re: intelligent click
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
xebra wrote:
Furthermore, it would be nice if you could make it so that if we click on an unwalkable target, the game is intelligent about guessing where we really wanted to click.
Implemented as requested. I also made the middle area (no facing preference) a little smaller.
Player (67)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
I want the last third of the kick to be uninterruptable. When you have to use both the mouse AND the arrow keys to move around, it's hard enough to press the kick key (numpad 0) without a delay. Also, can anoyone explain to me why it makes sense that mouse movement is much faster than keyboard movement? I just don't see it. "It's more challenging this way" is not a very good answer.
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Blublu wrote:
Also, can anoyone explain to me why it makes sense that mouse movement is much faster than keyboard movement? I just don't see it. "It's more challenging this way" is not a very good answer.
There is a delay in the keyboard movement in order to make it possible to change Peter's facing (look into another direction) without actually walking. When Peter is looking to the left and you press right, Peter will turn right immediately, but you need to _hold_ the button for more than 1 frame in order to walk to that direction. In mouse movement, there's no need for those delays.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Bisqwit wrote:
There is a delay in the keyboard movement in order to make it possible to change Peter's facing (look into another direction) without actually walking. When Peter is looking to the left and you press right, Peter will turn right immediately, but you need to _hold_ the button for more than 1 frame in order to walk to that direction. In mouse movement, there's no need for those delays.
This is necessary when turning towards a box without moving it (so that you can kick it instead). However, if there's no box at the direction where you turn the delay doesn't really make sense. It could be removed without it affecting gameplay (that is, only have a delay when turning towards a box). OTOH removing the delay now would make many if not most of the records for longer levels obsolete, ruining many hours of hard work.
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Warp wrote:
This is necessary when turning towards a box without moving it (so that you can kick it instead). However, if there's no box at the direction where you turn the delay doesn't really make sense.
Except for style. I really want to be able to turn without walking, even if there's no obstacle in that direction.
Player (67)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
OK, I understand now. I can also guess why you can't push blocks with the mouse. I guess it will always be required to use both mouse and arrow keys to get the best times.
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
Warp wrote:
By the way, isn't it interesting how much competition can reduce the time of a level like this? The current record is already more than one minute faster than your original record... I wonder how many of the other levels could be equivalently reduced...
Remember when I told you I lost my cookie? I've been resolving some of my old levels today. In one of them I got lost and had to think about 10 seconds about the next step. I wanted to take a look at the record (mine, thought to be well-played) afterwards to see the solution I came up with then... but I never got to see it because I beat it on first try even with those 10s of thinking. Talk about learning curve. I found another "old" record: 4-2. I got to see the route this time, but... that wasn't much help. Astonishing what a week of sokoban playing can do to your brain. Gratz for solving 6-5 Goroh. 8 unsolved left.
Editor, Player (53)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
Thanks gorash :) Actually level 6-5 was easier than the other level 6 maps. Also it's very similar to level 7-3, so if you solve one, you'll know how to solve the other one ;) Also, congrats for recuperating your level 4-2 record Edited: Now only 6 levels to go, I got 9-2 & 10-3 done ;)
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Could someone explain me how do you manage to use the mouse for everything in long levels? For example, in the 6-2 level you used 521 steps, 155 pushes, 16 kicks and 171 block moves, while I used only 511 steps, 153 pushes, 16 kicks and 169 block moves. Clearly my path is shorter than yours, yet you still beat my time by almost 5 seconds simply because you used the mouse for everything. How do you do that? I can perform some initial moves with the mouse, but this is only after practicing and memorizing the clicking places ("first I click here, press right, then here, press right, then here, press left..." and so on). If I try to use the mouse on the fly, without having memorized the clicking places I get almost immediately confused and get pauses while searching the correct place, click on wrong places etc etc. So, how do you do it? I don't get it. It's a bit frustrating. No matter how much I optimize my routes and how many times I start over because of a tiny 0.1 seconds mistake in order to get a flawless run, someone will easily beat my time with a worse path by simply using the mouse for everything, something which I can't do myself. Edit: I just tried 6-2 with mouse only and after about the 100th attempt I succeeded in performing to the end without bigger flaws. OTOH this level is unusually easy because most movement is just pushing one box long distances around...
Post subject: Re: Wanted: Kick animation
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Bisqwit wrote:
Wanted: An animated GIF (four of them for four directions) for the kicking action.
I wondered if anyone actually saw that post, but Warp apparently did and created those missing graphics. There's now a distinct "kick" animation -- actually a "power push" but still. Thanks Warp!
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
Warp wrote:
How do you do that? I can perform some initial moves with the mouse, but this is only after practicing and memorizing the clicking places ("first I click here, press right, then here, press right, then here, press left..." and so on). If I try to use the mouse on the fly, without having memorized the clicking places I get almost immediately confused and get pauses while searching the correct place, click on wrong places etc etc.
Did you never wonder why each and every of my 5-1 records had such "reloading" delays in it? The human brain can only hold such sequences up to a length of ~7 actions. I usually split up the level in several patterns which I practise. In 5-1 these are: initial blocks, left 4 stones, upper right 3 stones, lower center, far lower right. Between these phases most of my errors occur because I have to switch from one pattern to another. For long distances I first get peter moving by clicking there, as previously stated. Once he is moving I refine it by clicking where he has to face. This can lead to errors when there are two completely different pathes for different sides of the block that is next to push. A few of my "walks-in-completely-wrong-direction" errors come from that. What you can do is never watching peter, but always watching where he has to be next. Be a good 2-3 seconds ahead of peter. Has it's disadvantages when you mess up a kick though, because then you can trash the whole run. That's why I use a very fail-safe kick timing that prevents me from coming even remotely close to xebras records in the first levels.... Oh and another nice update... more Bisqbot records I see. And Gratz to Goroh for those 2 levels.
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
I think I am getting the hang of it. I improved my time in a couple of levels by several seconds by using exclusively the mouse for moving...
Editor, Player (53)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
Warp wrote:
Could someone explain me how do you manage to use the mouse for everything in long levels? For example, in the 6-2 level you used 521 steps, 155 pushes, 16 kicks and 171 block moves, while I used only 511 steps, 153 pushes, 16 kicks and 169 block moves. Clearly my path is shorter than yours, yet you still beat my time by almost 5 seconds simply because you used the mouse for everything. How do you do that? I can perform some initial moves with the mouse, but this is only after practicing and memorizing the clicking places ("first I click here, press right, then here, press right, then here, press left..." and so on). If I try to use the mouse on the fly, without having memorized the clicking places I get almost immediately confused and get pauses while searching the correct place, click on wrong places etc etc. So, how do you do it? I don't get it. It's a bit frustrating. No matter how much I optimize my routes and how many times I start over because of a tiny 0.1 seconds mistake in order to get a flawless run, someone will easily beat my time with a worse path by simply using the mouse for everything, something which I can't do myself. Edit: I just tried 6-2 with mouse only and after about the 100th attempt I succeeded in performing to the end without bigger flaws. OTOH this level is unusually easy because most movement is just pushing one box long distances around...
Well, as Gorash said before, you need to be ahead of where you're going to head. In long maps I usually try to figure out which place I'll going to be next, so I place the pointer of the mouse near that point, so when I finish doing the last thing, I can move ASAP. It doesn't matter if it isn't the exact place, as most of the time, the shortest path will be near where you clicked (now that you've clicked, just click again in the exact point where you want to). Also, if you are going to kick right away, you can keep pressed either K or 0 while you're moving with the mouse as it won't stop moving & you'll kick immediately ;) BTW, I took again your 6-2 record & with a blunder :P PS: Thanks for creating the sprites of the kicks Warp, now is a lot way easier to run right after you kicked the box :)
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
Number of green stuff increases... what a load of work to solve all that again. Only 3 of my previously solved ones, and the other 4 that you guys have solved and I'm up to par again. As I went I took the crown in 10-3 and 12-3 if noone minds. EDIT: 9-4, 9-5 and 11-3 solved. 9-4 and 9-5 were really easy and although 11-3 gave me a lot of aborts the solution is incredibly easy too.
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
Samurai Phil: I came up with a new strat on 2-2 you can steal. I purposefully left in a frame of error so that you can improve upon my time without having to do any actual thinking of your own. Bisqwit: WOW! Love the new mousing "guess where you probably meant to click" AI.
Active player (277)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
That was nice of you.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Editor, Active player (296)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
xebra wrote:
WOW! Love the new mousing "guess where you probably meant to click" AI.
Well, it was designed by a smart person. Btw, I eliminated now the middle click area completely. As pointed out by others already, it is not really needed. So you have even larger diamond now you can click at.
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
xebra wrote:
Samurai Phil: I came up with a new strat on 2-2 you can steal. I purposefully left in a frame of error so that you can improve upon my time without having to do any actual thinking of your own.
Thou shalt not provoke us. Found a better route and left generous 11 frames of errors in it. Two steps left to find for Bisqbots route by the way. Kicks and pushes already fit. Edit: Nevermind, found the perfect route and left you 6 frames. The general idea of the center 4 pushing outwards is thanks to you though xebra. Also Goroh, I haven't even noticed your PM, sorry. I answered it now.
Editor, Player (53)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
Gorash wrote:
Also Goroh, I haven't even noticed your PM, sorry. I answered it now.
No prob.BTW, I trashed your level 6-5 record, it was me who beat it 1st so I claimed again & I'll try to hold the record if you beat it again ;)
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
Gorash wrote:
Thou shalt not provoke us.
I'm not sure how I was provoking you, but you did precisely what I was hoping Samurai Goroh would do -- actually find a better path on a level we knew to be improvable, rather than just taking the record by more accurately executing an imperfect strategy he didn't even come up with. Good job on finding the optimal strategy, now what about 2-3?
Joined: 4/16/2005
Posts: 251
I felt provoked, so you must have done that ;) I looked into 2-3 a couple of times already, but I haven't found a path remotely resembling the kick/push count of the optimal solution... Will need some more work. BTW. don't hesitate to perfect 2-2. I know you are better in short levels, and once you have achieved the human limit we can move on to the next level. Edit: I looked into 2-3 again and found three different 27/7/2 solutions. The current record is a 27/9/1 solution, so the difference should be 13 frames. I can't find a clue if one of this is related to the best possible, but maybe someone else sees a link. The perfect solution has to end with a push, else the timing doesn't fit. Solution 1: L,L,L,PD,R,KD,D,D,KL,PR,D,R,PU,L,U,PU,R,U,PL,D,L,L,L,D,PR,D,D,L,PU Solution 2: L,PD,L,KD,D,D,KR,PL,U,L,U,PR,D,D,D,L,PU,R,R,U,PU,R,R,D,PL,D,D,R,PU Solution 3: L,PD,L,KD,D,D,KR,PL,U,L,U,PR,D,R,PU,R,R,D,PL,D,D,R,PU,L,L,L,D,L,PU Where the letters are initials of up, left, right, down, push, and kick. 2nd EDIT: Bisqwit I found another bug. When I finish the last level (12-5) I get an alert saying "Level not found" and the large blue letters change to level 1-0. After that I can still click on the level details and also submit records there. Could the method for getting the name of the next level be slightly broken? 3rd EDIT: Found the perfect route on 2-3, but I can't get closer than 3 frames. 3-1 is next?
Editor, Player (53)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
Finally, there's a record in every level :) I got level 10-5
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
I swear that formation of 3 blocks at the bottom-right of 10-5 is impossible. The left block can't be pushed in any direction until the middle one is moved, the middle one would cause a "definitely-wrong" replay if pushed in any direction, and the right one can't be pushed up no matter whether it's pushed left or right first, without pushing the leftmost block to the left which gets it stuck. Obviously I'm missing something here... By the way, is this really based on a game called "Peter Box"? I think I found some screenshots from the DOS version of this game - the level graphics, publisher, and release date match up, but you may notice that the title and title screen are slightly different...: http://www.mobygames.com/game/soko-sex/screenshots (click "Main Summary" on left to read rest of info)
Active player (277)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Wasn't it based on Sokoban?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
1 2
5 6 7
10 11