Guga
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I'm going to past the game first, to familiarize with the keyboard (I've always used USB controller) and the game. After that, I will start the TAS =D
Joined: 11/26/2010
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Nice I'm really looking forward to seeing this TAS!!!
My name is Forensics.
Noxxa
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Alright, I've been taking a look at this game again in order to (re)gain some useful data that will be helpful in TASing this game. Here's what I've found today: Here's a list of some of the more notable parts that can be built.
parts:          unlock   cost    effect

hyper dash      2500     1000    invincible dash (no speed bonus)

buster plus +1  400      200     buster damage +1
buster plus +2  1000     200     buster damage +2
ultimate buster 1500     500     always fully charged shot
hyper charge    2000     1000    faster charge shot
armor           2000     2000    gets full x armor (instant effect)

saber plus +1   200      200     saber damage +1
saber plus +2   2000     500     saber damage +2
ultimate saber  1000     800     ground slash always third slash from triple slash
Note that defeating a boss (including the intro boss) yields 200 DNA souls. Also, these are the memory addresses for the DNA soul count: C0F0-C0F3. Note that the variables are stored in an odd way: the four addresses stand for the four digits of the DNA soul number. So if your soul count is, say, 2156, then C0F3 is 2, C0F2 is 1, C0F1 is 5 and C0F0 is 6. Other memory addresses I've found so far are B857 and B85A for boss invincibility countdown. (Former goes at least for Flame Mammoth, the latter at least for Wire Sponge). Boss invincibility after being hit lasts for 60 frames, including being hit with their weakness weapon and being stunned. (Possibly not for all bosses; only tested on Flame Mammoth and Wire Sponge so far) A semi-relevant fact I'll put down here is that Zero has four weapons which require him to enter the pause screen (which takes at least 40 frames), which makes them very impractical for most uses, and probably aren't worth using at all. (X doesn't really seem to have totally useless weapons). These include Tri-Thunder (Volt Catfish), Lightning (Wire Sponge), Dash (Overdrive Ostrich) and Earth Gaizer (Blast Hornet). The Zero Final upgrade also counts, but it does have notable damage output (10). Probably doesn't make up for the time to obtain it, though. (Capsule sequences take around 900 frames, and that doesn't include the time wasted to reach it) Some useful notes for route planning (I'll try to design a full route later): The Saber+ and Buster+ parts are really, really convenient. One can get a Saber+1 part before entering the first maverick stage, and then the air slash will do 4 damage to a boss, which is as much as some weakness weapons on some bosses. But then, after getting 1000 souls, Buster+2 is unlocked, and when X gets both, his buster will do +3 damage, which means his shot (charged or uncharged) does 5 damage per hit, outclassing Zero who doesn't get Saber+2 until way too late. So first, Zero will be used to pick off some mavericks without very powerful weaknesses against them (e.g. Flame Mammoth, who takes only 4 damage from Fish Fang, or Tunnerl Rhino whose weakness, Earth Gaizer is absolutely useless), get their weapons to beat some other bosses weak to those weapons (options include Wire Sponge, Neon Tiger and Overdrive Ostrich). Then switch to X and pick off the rest. Uncharged weakness weapons with X do 4 damage which is less than Buster+1+2 X-Buster, so the order hardly even matters. Finally, some useful links: Damage Data Charts for X and Zero VGMaps: Mega Man Xtreme 2 Gameshark cheats for easy testing. MMHP: Mega Man Xtreme 2 (general info)
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Oh yeah, I remember their Overdrive Ostrich map was missing a bonus room.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Noxxa
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Okay, more route planning stuff. There are two bosses with weapons which will be useful for Zero, and who both happen to not be weak to any (practical) weakness weapon for him either. These are Flame Mammoth and Tunnel Rhino. Both are viable candidates for going first, and neither seems to benefit much, if anything, from the other's weapon - except maybe there's a spot for Fire Wave to get some use in Tunnel Rhino's stage, as it destroys most enemies there in one hit and may be faster at one or two points than just slashing them up the traditional way. So that's Mammoth first and Rhino second. Then, there are three bosses who are weak to Zero's Fire Wave and Drill Crush. These are Neon Tiger, Overdrive Ostrich and Wire Sponge. All three take 5 damage from Drill Crush, and Wire Sponge takes 6 damage from Fire Wave. So at least Sponge will have to be done by Zero; the other two are up for grabs, since after 4 stages, it's possible (with some positive luck manipulation) to have 1000 souls to unlock Buster +2 (and buy both that and Buster+1). Neon Tiger has a lot of enemies, especially near the beginning of the stage, so it seems better to do him with X (who can shoot more stuff better than Zero can slash stuff), leaving Ostrich for Zero. Conclusion: Wire Sponge third, Overdrive Ostrich fourth, and then Neon Tiger, where Zero gets switched out for X. Following that, there are three bosses left: Launch Octopus, Volt Catfish and Blast Hornet. Since all of them will fall to the X-Buster, the order doesn't seem that important for these three. So looking at the practicality of each weapon, Marine Tornado seems to be very useful in Catfish' stage, and both Marine Tornado and Tri-Thunder seem useful in Blast Hornet's stage, so it'll be Launch Octopus sixth, Volt Catfish seventh and Blast Hornet eighth. To recap: 1 - Flame Mammoth (Zero) 2 - Tunnel Rhino (Zero) 3 - Wire Sponge (Zero) 4 - Overdrive Ostrich (Zero) 5 - Neon Tiger (X) 6 - Launch Octopus (X) 7 - Volt Catfish (X) 8 - Blast Hornet (X) This route assumes no items or armor to be collected other than 1200 DNA-souls collected (get 200 from intro boss, spend those 200 on saber+1, then get 1000 (800 from bosses, 200 throughout stages) to unlock and buy buster+2 as well as buster+1). I don't think these can save time, but anyway, here are some of the options: - Zero Final (requires doing Sponge before Rhino (no real loss there), but collecting takes quite a bit of time (requires activating and using Lightning), and it also takes time to execute, while doing about 2.5x one slash by Zero, or 2x a +3 shot from X) - X Arm upgrade (requires head upgrade as well as possibly leg upgrade and revisiting Mammoth and... heck, forget about it) I don't think any of the items will be of use. It's also probable that it takes far too much time to get everything to get the Shotokan capsule, which defeats bosses in two hits. So the run will essentially collect no items, other than whatever Heart Tanks happen to be lying around in the way. Also, oddly, it seems that with the fortress bosses, Zero seems to do more damage and X less. This actually makes Zero more useful in the first few fortress stages, but then doing Berkana with X seems faster after that. Nice, how an optimized route actually makes the characters switch around a bit. EDIT: Some testing later, Velguarder is tied between X and Zero for damage, and Zero's advantage over X on Isaz & Sowilo is only roughly one second, which is reduced by the hassle of attempting to hit both heads with one Drill Crush. So it's probably X all the way throughout the fortress, rather than getting Zero in there.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile
I was testing the adresses and happened this
Noxxa
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Looks like you accidentally disabled the background layer (by pressing ctrl + 1). Press ctrl+1 again to get it back.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Noxxa
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Another route update, and good news for Zero: Berkana's route is impossible with X if he doesn't have the air dash upgrade. (Xtreme 2 appears to basically be the 8-bit/Gameboy equvalent of MMX6.) So we'll have to use Zero and fight Gareth instead, which also seems to be faster as Zero can inflict more damage on Gareth than X on Berkana. Additionally, if between the final four Maverick stages and the first two fortress stages another 200 souls are collected, there will be 2000 souls, so Zero can get Saber+2, with which he can do 6 damage to all bosses with an air slash and do even more to Gareth and Sigma. So, then the first two fortress stages will be done with X, and then the final stages with Zero. Nice variation, eh? EDIT: As for Sigma, I did quite some thinking and testing about it. The first form definitely has to be done with Zero, since he can kill him in four hits with Saber+2. However, the second form spends the first couple of seconds in gold mode, which can be harmed by X but not by Zero. However, X can't reach him without an airdash (meaning he requires either the leg upgrade from Volt Catfish' stage or the Armor part which costs 2000 chips). And even with the airdash, X isn't efficient enough to deal enough damage to save a hit for Zero for when Sigma turns to red mode, so it's actually better to stick with Zero and wait for ~1000 frames until Sigma turns red. I tested, and after Sigma turns red, Zero can destroy him before he switches to blue. So it's still Zero all the way through the final fortress stage.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile
Know that I thinking: Is possible use Strike Chain for speed purpose, just like Mega Man X2?
Noxxa
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ThatGugaWhoPlay wrote:
Know that I thinking: Is possible use Strike Chain for speed purpose, just like Mega Man X2?
I've been thinking about that, but I think in the end it's not worth getting it with X. This is because its range is very small, and X moves faster in general so the speed boost isn't as much. It could save some frames here and there, but I don't think it's worth it.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile
Okay, I already doned the game. I learn the position of the armors, new ways to kill bosses by videos of YT and I will start the TAS. I will be off for 3 to 6 days since tomorrow, so anything useful for the TAS will be really appreciated.
Noxxa
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Nice. Are you going to follow the route I described? Or do you have other plans/ideas?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile
You are the master, Mothrayas =P
Noxxa
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ThatGugaWhoPlay wrote:
You are the master, Mothrayas =P
Heh, thanks. I think I can get around to TASing more, so I could go work on the TAS along with you, or at least assist in some parts if needed. What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Posts: 838
Location: Chile
Sure, why not? =D
Noxxa
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Here's a WIP of the intro stage and a very small part of Flame Mammoth's stage: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1833917939/Mega%20Man%20Xtreme%202.vbm 29 frames faster than the WIP from way earlier. Roughly 22-24 from switching to Zero higher in the air, and the rest from general optimizations. Getting everything optimized perfectly was quite a bit trickier than I initially expected. Nevertheless, the basics of moving are still the same, except that the fastest way of movement on completely flat ground it to alternate down+A and >, > dashing on the ground. There aren't a lot of places with enough room for that, though.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile
Ok, I managed to get internet now. What ROM you use, Mothrayas? It always desync to me D:
Noxxa
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Emulator: VBA-RR v23.5 (svn 394), default settings ROM: Mega Man Xtreme 2.gbc (USA version) If the verification movie synced, this one should too.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile
Flame Mammoth doned! ... I think I did it terrible =(
Noxxa
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I wonder how you managed to take 1260 savestates for that. Did you even use frame advance, or any form of slowdown at all? It looks worse than a real-time run.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile
Re-doned, now is decent... I think Mothrayas, the reason of the savestates is that my computer crashed so many times when I was doing the movie, so for don't lose anything, I used all the save slots. And I used frame advance, and yes, it look worse than a real-time run
Noxxa
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It's much better than the last one, but still fairly unoptimized. You should look closely at the inputs in the intro stage which I did. For the bunnyhopping, you just need to start jumping again at the first frame possible and you'll still keep dashing speed. This is faster than what you're doing here. Also, the switch to X is totally unnecessary. You have Zero with Saber+1, you can just slash those enemies out of the way. You also take the ladder at around frame 13500, but it's clearly faster to take the bottom way instead. I'll see if I can get some time today or tommorrow to show the kind of speed/optimization that's needed for the TAS. TASing may seem hard, but one thing to remember is, patience is key :) EDIT: Oh, and could you also come and join the TASVideos IRC channel? It would be much better for conversation.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile
I have an unstable internet for today. Tomorrow I will join. Thanks for the tips!
Noxxa
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http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1142262269/Mega%20Man%20Xtreme%202.vbm Here's the first part of Flame Mammoth's stage, up to the first autosave. This is 98 frames faster than your attempt at it. Take a good look at my movements in Flame Mammoth's stage. Do you see the differences?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Guga
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Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile
A LOT OF DIFFERENCE! I think any viewer can clearly see the segments from the Pro (you) and from the Newbie (me) =P