Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Doesn't the green dream disappear on a new game+ file? I thought that event based items did not carry over.
With the leveling up being obsolete now, this run is going to be amazing.
Thats right, GreenDream doesn't carry over, so no improvement to the NewGame+ run as long as it's required for the instant glitch trick (which seems very likely to be so).
I just finished watching the full WIP run and have a few comments.
I'd first like to say congratulations for finishing the game with a significant reduction in completion time from the published run! Even though it's a test run, it's already beyond any expectations I had. Precise luck manipulation, clever item use, and repeated abuse of game mechanics allowed for things to happen I've never thought possible. (I laughed when you skipped the candy scene, then came back for it... priceless)
I think about the only gripe I do have is the jerkiness in movement. (Though it could be for reasons I don't immediately see...) Sometimes I get this feeling that you walk around a little extra before talking to some people, and I also think some of the extra movements that don't affect the game's pace are a bit awkward. I can't tell you which parts exactly (it has been about 2-3 days since I last saw the run) but they did sort of stand out.
But it is just a test run after all and nothing's set in stone. I only know nitpicking makes people strive to be their best :)
Once again, thanks a ton for the test run. It really satisfied my taste for some more Chrono Trigger breakage action :)
Alsoooo... sweet glitch there :D
Would this work in every fight, or is this a special case? orz
Those two fights are the only cases that the glitch can be used in an any% run because it requires an Elixir, the Green Dream and an enemy who has certain amount of HP to properly perform the glitch. Here is an overview of the glitch.
Normally, when a character with the Green Dream is defeated, he automatically revives. However, sometimes, (perhaps, when some RNG condtions are satisfied) he falls down once again and gets up. If that happens, the game temporarily considers him as dead, and if the other two chatacters are really dead at that point, he becomes unable to use any item on himself. Instead, he is able to use an item on enemies! And if you use an Elixir on an enemy and the sum of its current HP and the amount of HP heal is more than 32768(0x8000), that cause overflow and does instant kill. In an any % run, Inner Lavos(20000) and Lavos Core(30000) are only enemies who meet those conditions. Therefore, the glitch is only available in those two battles.
dave_dfwm wrote:
This glitch would save more than just 7 minutes. Think of all the time it saves you from leveling up!! Although I forget, where do you get the GreenDream?
Yes, you're right. An improvement done by the glitch would easily go beyond mere 7 minutes. Like Saturn, I guess 20 + minutes improvement is almost promised. But, to be on the safe side, I personally think it's still too early to say any leveling up isn't necesarry now. As usual, some test will be needed to make it clear.
As for the Green Dream, You remember correctly. I never had the Green Dream in my test TAS. The thing is, the smv was not directly taken from the test TAS. Sorry for the confusion.
@SaxxonPike
Thank you for watching my test TAS. I'm really glad you liked it!
Regarding the movement, even though it may look sloppy, actually almost all extra movments have purposes to save a few frames. That is, in Chrono Trigger, just because you talk to a person as fast as possible doesn't mean it gives the best result. Here is one typical example.
In this movie, instead of talking to Frog as fast as possible, I go a long way round and talk to Frog. It seems slower at first, but it ends up faster after all, since when Crono opens the chest, Marle and Lucca already stand very close to the position where they'll walk to at the beginning of the Masamune cutscene. This is a very useful technique in CT and you can apply it to entering some unavoidable battles as well. Hope this cleared up your question.
Also, due to my laziness, I had not started the final recording yet. So following the discovery of the new glitch, I've taken some time and ponderd over how to work on the run from now. And I just reversed my earlier decision and made a decision:
I will use the skip trick in the final run.
Some people may blame for my inconsistencies. But the situtaion has changed since I made the earlier decision. Unlike six months ago, now I already finished one full CT any% TAS, although it's a test TAS, you can see pretty good strategies for skippable bosses are packaged in it. So, to be quite honest, now I find myself leaning toward making a CT TAS with curretnly known all tricks and glitches in order to push the game to the limit.
Under these circumstances, I have no choice but to put off starting the final recording in the meanwhile because I have to test lots of different strategies for almost all boss battles at lower level. Especially, each Lavos form fights would be very troublesome and it would take long to reach to the optimal strategy since I'm totally new to fight them with less techs and around level 15-20.
Hopefully I'll finish all the test stuff and really start the final recording in this year. Again, thank you for the patience. And I'd really like to say sorry for all the people who has been looking forward to see a TAS without the skip trick.
As usual, any feedback would be much appreciated.
I actually support your decision to use the skip trick, inichi. The test run already showed the limit for a legit playthrough without any boss skips while using very optimized strategies on them. Skipping the entire Lavos fight with the instant kill glitch but fighting every other boss would be inconsistent after all. And since you don't even have to level up for Lavos anymore, bosses like Nizbel II would be unnecessarily delayed as well due to the much lower level and inferior techs.
Going for the absolutely fastest completion time no matter what would on the other hand be a completely new run never seen before, so it's a good decision in any case. We can still have the option to publish your test run (which can easily be considered a pretty optimal one that totally surpasses every TAS standard for this game already) alongside the final glitched one, if needed.
Good luck with all the testing, and don't pressure yourself to finish everything faster. What counts is to make a optimal run in the end, no matter how much time you would require for it.
PS:
As for the final time with all boss skips possible, I would guess something between 1:50 - 2:20 to be possible.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
I actually agree with Saturn on this. A totally destroyed run would provide a lot of entertainment value for the amount of new things present. I'm sure that once it were published, your test run could be linked to in the movie text for people to view who don't want to see the boss skip utilized.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
I think that the test run is of high enough quality to be published. It sure beats the hell out of my run. It should obsolete it, then a 3rd category can be made for the extremely glitched out run.
Maybe just publish the short one and mention no-skip run in the movie description? Seems like a decent compromise (I highly doubt that having three categories for an RPG — naturally one of the most boring genres to watch — is really warranted in this case).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I think we don't need New Game+ at all, and definitely disagree with having 3 categories. Fastest time and 100% completion seem the way to go, in my eyes.
Well, dunno, I kinda like the NewGame+ run, and it seems it might be further shortened, thanks to the recent findings. Finishing a several-hour-long game in under ten minutes is hardly a bad thing to have at a speedrun site.
Having two overly long (as in, difficult to watch in one sitting) runs doesn't seem too appealing, though.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
I dont know the game all that well, so forgive the ignorance--
but cant you fight lavos at most times throughout the game?
it seems like this glitch would reduce the game to a time trial of retrieving the needed items, then a sudden victory. You probably realized this already, but what is at the heart of this is that it not only cuts out the leveling time required, but it also cuts out some amount of the storyline.
but cant you fight lavos at most times throughout the game?
You can fight Lavos as soon as you reach the End of Time. However you need the Green Dream which is acquired by completing Lucca's Mom's Sidestory to use the glitch apparently.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Regarding the movement, even though it may look sloppy, actually almost all extra movments have purposes to save a few frames. That is, in Chrono Trigger, just because you talk to a person as fast as possible doesn't mean it gives the best result.
Yes, thanks for the quick response :)
inichi wrote:
I will use the skip trick in the final run.
I fully support this decision. Take your time though. Don't feel rushed. It's quite a massive project.
Also, I almost feel that the testrun should be published for now...
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
I know it's not really common practice, but have you considered submitting your test run, inichi? I think it could solve the problems that have been popping up:
1) It seems to have a proper amount of optimization for being worthy of publication here, despite being a test run.
2) It would allow for a justified encoding of the run, and not just a link to the .smv in the future movie's text.
3) In case something happens to your motivation, and you don't ever finish the glitch run, this would provide a very good replacement for hero's run anyway. And since you seem to be the only one interested in working with this game, if you leave, we'll have another game in a similar position as OoT.
4) You said that a glitch run would take a lot more testing, and that you may start by the end of the year. If the test run were submitted and published, it would still be another year at least before you were done with the improvement, and the general public could have the joy in watching two new (and large) improvements, instead of one, without getting bored with them.
Just some ideas and thoughts, but I personally think that the test run would probably be well received if it were submitted.
Thank you for the feedback guys.
I appreciate you offering me to submit the test run but I'm afraid I can't do that. Though, I must admit, I was tempted to do it a little. :p
The main reason is the fact that it contains an obvious improvement here and there regardless of using the skip trick and the instant kill glitch. Perhaps, as you said, it may already have enough quality to meet TASVideos' standards. However, I just can't motivate me to submit a run which is improvable by almost 30 seconds.
In addition, I don't think we need a separate category for CT any% run. To separate the category, I think it would be necesarry to find a new glitch which allows you to skip almost all boss fights and cutscenes like Zelda LttP run does. Of course, that's just my opinion, though.
moozoh wrote:
Anyway, any ideas on the target time for a fully glitched TAS? Something like 2:30 seems about right.
Maybe, 2:30 - 2:35. But, I'm always wrong about that. So, yeah. :)
@mmbossman
Thank you for the suggestion. I can see your point of view, but, I won't submit the testrun on the ground that I mentioned above.
#3 is probably what I'm most concerned about now. We all TASers have a real life and we don't know what is going to happen to us even in the next days. I only hope I won't lose the motivation for CT TAS until I finish the final run...
Well, dunno, I kinda like the NewGame+ run, and it seems it might be further shortened, thanks to the recent findings.
Again, there are no strategical improvements known for the NewGame+ run yet. However if you "invented" some new ones out of nothing, feel free to let inichi and everybody else know so that people can start working on the new run.
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
You can fight Lavos as soon as you reach the End of Time. However you need the Green Dream which is acquired by completing Lucca's Mom's Sidestory to use the glitch apparently.
Yes, it's needed according to inichi. And the earliest point to get it is after you visited Zeal.
inichi wrote:
Perhaps, as you said, it may already have enough quality to meet TASVideos' standards. However, I just can't motivate me to submit a run which is improvable by almost 30 seconds.
Typical inichi. :-)
30 sec improvement on a 3+ hour run. Thats of course way to much to meet the standard here compared to a ~1 hour improvable run. But I can understand you very well, I would probably feel same about that.
inichi wrote:
Maybe, 2:30 - 2:35.
Surprising to hear that from you. I really assumed that skipping so many bosses (which take alot of time each) and the leveling up scene would save much more than that. Let's see what will come out when the run is done. :-)
Again, there are no strategical improvements known for the NewGame+ run yet. However if you "invented" some new ones out of nothing, feel free to let inichi and everybody else know so that people can start working on the new run.
Actually, wouldn't this Elixer-on-Lavos trick work?
- Forget Marle -- saves on cutscene text with Lavos.
- Crono tackles Shell alone like normal. End with low HP.
- Let inner Lavos Doors of Doom wipe out Crono, do the GreenDream glitch, and use Elixers to instantly win the next 2 battles.
Again, there are no strategical improvements known for the NewGame+ run yet. However if you "invented" some new ones out of nothing, feel free to let inichi and everybody else know so that people can start working on the new run.
You don't have to be such a dick about it, though.
What about the deequip trick?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
According to people who know stuff about this game (a.i not me, only finished it once. Shame) you don't get to keep greendream in a newgame+ run.
Nuts, I forgot about that. I can understand the Masamune, but why do all the other special equips have to be lost on a New Game+?
Anyways, as Moozooh said, the deequip glitch could be helpful, at least for the one or two times offensive magic is used.
As far as I know the de-equip trick only increases magic defense, not attacks. I did a quick test to be sure, de-equipping Crono's armor and helmet in a NewGame+, and Luminaire still did ~6050 HP damage, just like usual. Maybe inichi can clear us up further, since he indeed mentioned that it would make your magic attacks stronger. I can't see a reason why it should do so though, as armor has nothing to do with magic power at all.
As for the mom-skip using the pause trick, the problem is that once the dialogue starts, you can't enter the menu anymore and thus get stopped before the exit like usual. :-(
