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Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
arukAdo wrote:
The dash arent completly connected I think, theres probly a few frames to wait before dashing again or the boss just dont take damage, like for any tas if you dont watch ram for boss hp closely you aint going to get far, thats while recording or replaying older movies, theres a cooldown between each hits so say you have the rain in between no dmg from dash yeah, the trick is to register them at same time, you can even jump after the first dash to regain height if your too far from his head. And yeah its optimized to the nearest frame usually; many tricks have no place for error like for exemple screen flickers, big toss and many others.
Thank you, I got it figured out. The color effects on the whip were throwing off my RNG.
arukAdo wrote:
You dont need 3 million zircon, the boomrang are 2000 each, the problem is just to figure what part of the run can be improved from having more of them, and how many boomerang in total, so that you know how much money is needed exactly, theres a lib card in one of the vases, otherwise its only 500 anyway, thats still a lot more time consuming than just say kill a merman and drop an extra food since you cant have the chicken in the wall
What vase are you talking about? I can't find another Library Card anywhere near the route, where is it? Also, you can't buy a Card instead, because the Fairy shop glitch only works the first time you enter the shop IIRC. Whatever, Zircon is definitely the best way.
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
So erhm, just for fun ive tryed to fool around with boomrangs, the inverted keep will be a big time saver, we can save time on the wolf rise and get faster toss on the skull, we may use a third jump after the skull if we want to avoid the small rise, im not sure its worthy money wise tho, but the 2 first surely does save frames. Edit: well actually we can skip the flamberge alltogether, boomrangs can replace it in every situations. Id say; -3 sets for keep -1 set for chapel (2 at worse) -5 sets for marble/shaft So that would be 48-54 boomrangs for jumps, plus a few to open Richter switch (and save a menu access), and some more to optimize guardian lvlup shift (menu access as well) 60 boomrangs would be 120k$ wich is 800 zircon, 50 would be about 667 zircon , getting the frame count of selling 800 or 667 zircon would be nice :p (then of course if its like over 30 seconds, measure vase in library or outerwall and compare) Edit: ok so ive underestimated shaft, its gonna cost 1 less set there, and some wolf rise is going to be required, ive timed about 1600 frames for wolf and 600 frames for sword, so thats around 15 seconds lost there, wich is about equal than grabbing sword, 1 extra set needed if not grabbing sword to avoid waiting gears to get on top faster
Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
arukAdo wrote:
So erhm, just for fun ive tryed to fool around with boomrangs, the inverted keep will be a big time saver, we can save time on the wolf rise and get faster toss on the skull, we may use a third jump after the skull if we want to avoid the small rise, im not sure its worthy money wise tho, but the 2 first surely does save frames. Edit: well actually we can skip the flamberge alltogether, boomrangs can replace it in every situations. Id say; -3 sets for keep -1 set for chapel (2 at worse) -5 sets for marble/shaft So that would be 48-54 boomrangs for jumps, plus a few to open Richter switch (and save a menu access), and some more to optimize guardian lvlup shift (menu access as well) 60 boomrangs would be 120k$ wich is 800 zircon, 50 would be about 667 zircon , getting the frame count of selling 800 or 667 zircon would be nice :p (then of course if its like over 30 seconds, measure vase in library or outerwall and compare)
That's impressive. I never noticed how much being able to do the shop glitch changes everything. No wolf rising at all is wonderful. Maybe one day it will be possible to do 0 relics somehow... As for which gem to use, I'll repeat what you said earlier: we don't need 3 million Zircon. There's no way the Garnet or the Onyx could take less than a minute, and they probably take significantly longer, especially since you have to deal with a boss in both routes. Unless I'm missing something that you thought of recently, I'm almost certain that Zircon is the fastest.
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
Well now whe know we need at worse 800 zircon so you can tell wich is faster, you could maybe not use the lib card and go outerwall, there toss on the axe guy to get the gem and here use the card, before the boss, the only revelant info is how long it takes to sell 800 zircon imo, then we know precisly how much faster are others to sell and if its worthy.
Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
arukAdo wrote:
Well now whe know we need at worse 800 zircon so you can tell wich is faster, you could maybe not use the lib card and go outerwall, there toss on the axe guy to get the gem and here use the card, before the boss, the only revelant info is how long it takes to sell 800 zircon imo, then we know precisly how much faster are others to sell and if its worthy.
I don't think you can get out of the room with the library card without actually using the library card. It would still be faster to do the big toss to the Garnet and then go up the Outer Wall normally if you didn't get the library card at all, though, but I don't think that could match the Zircon. If there's a way to get another library card before getting the Onyx, then that might match Zircon, but even then it would be close at best, unless you think 800 Zircon could take 2 minutes or something.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
In 2 minutes there's 60*60*2 = 7200 frames. If it takes more than 7200 / 800 = 9 frames to sell 1 Zircon, then it'll take more than 2 minutes to sell 800 Zircons. And doesn't the Librarian manage to say "Hehe! Thank-" before getting cut off when you sell the next gem? That's gotta be at least a quarter of a second (15 frames), which would mean over 3 minutes of selling Zircons... Or am I completely misremembering how gem-selling works?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
Derakon wrote:
In 2 minutes there's 60*60*2 = 7200 frames. If it takes more than 7200 / 800 = 9 frames to sell 1 Zircon, then it'll take more than 2 minutes to sell 800 Zircons. And doesn't the Librarian manage to say "Hehe! Thank-" before getting cut off when you sell the next gem? That's gotta be at least a quarter of a second (15 frames), which would mean over 3 minutes of selling Zircons... Or am I completely misremembering how gem-selling works?
The gems are sold by selling 255 at once, meaning you only hear his line 3 times, not that it pauses the game or anything. And I'm pretty sure it takes less than 9 frames to tick the counter up one. Though, since that means that we'd have to equip the the Zircon 3 different times, arukAdo's idea of big tossing to the Garnet and not getting the library card should still be considered. Better yet, is there some method of getting out of the library card room I don't know about? You can't just jump out, the door on the other side just pushes you back down immediately.
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
Oh yeah exiting might require double jump or mist, forgot about that actually, im not sure if someone ever figured out how to exit. 9 frames is goofy, it should take only 1 press so 1 frame, but theres going to be lag and opening menu ect... hence why i wanted somebody to try sell 800 zircon heh if it takes over 30 seconds its going to be lot of problems thats for sure
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Okay, so I'm completely misremembering how gem-selling works. Thanks for the correction. :)
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
So ive tested various stuff, it wasnt optimized like hell or anything. clock tower: ~1000 frames faster to skip flamberge and no lvl up on harpy. -requires one extra menu access anywhere between medusa in outerwall and after harpies in clock tower (~100 frames), or dont drop medusa shield/axes only (?). -boomerangs could save some frames (50-) in harpy room if skip flamberge; no wait for small gears, entertainement factor is guaranted there with wolf. -lower level. keep: 500+ frames faster with 2 sets of boomerangs in skull room. 150+ frames faster with 1 set of boomerangs in second room. -you need 2 boomerangs to replace flamberge for opening the secret stairs before richter. chapel: 150+ frames faster with 1 set of boomerangs than flamberge. -no king stone with boomerangs (?). shaft pit: 800+ frames faster with flamberge than 3 sets of boomerangs. -no flamberge requires a set of boomerangs (~100 frames slower for wolf) at guardian after the shift. -lower level might requires to lvl up on guardian instead of the knight for a stat boost. dracula: ~800 frames slower using masamune special attack, normal attack is even slower, this can be improved with better luck manipulation. ~150 frames slower using alucard shield on both shaft and dracula; in the older movie we are higher level; 2 medusa cast would make alucard shield the fastest (dont drop medusa?). -masamune is always faster on shaft; casting alucard shield spell is too long if you dont use it on dracula too. -in the current movie, grabing the mablung sword cost about 580 frames, maybe this could be improved. -recast medusa shield takes 140 frames. 57 boomerangs should be optimal, 51 if skiping them in clock tower. Ill make some tests in the Library later.
Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
If possible, I think that if we can get the Garnet without having to go up the outer wall, we should do that even if it's slower than zircon. Yes to boomerangs in the clock tower as well. Also, made a route through the reverse keep without big toss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvXX9bOwLzI Not perfect, but it's the right general idea. Big toss is still faster probably, but it looks really badass. Is there some better way to deal with the enemies at the end than having to throw more boomerangs?
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
Im using only 1 set to get upside stairs, I wasnt really focusing on doing better but rather adapt boomerangs to the old strategy. This look faster but requires 3 sets instead of 2 with the skull. And no you cant kill those tombstones you have to toss on them. 63 boomerangs are 126k thats 840 zircon or 84 garnet.
Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
arukAdo wrote:
Im using only 1 set to get upside stairs, I wasnt really focusing on doing better but rather adapt boomerangs to the old strategy. This look faster but requires 3 sets instead of 2 with the skull. And no you cant kill those tombstones you have to toss on them. 63 boomerangs are 126k thats 840 zircon or 84 garnet.
Aren't boomerangs only 1000? That in mind, it took about 954 frames from pressing the button to sell the first one to sell enough zircon to get 51 boomerangs, having to repeat the glitch once, whereas it only took 82 frames from the same starting point with the Garnet. Also, if we get the Garnet, we can afford to stop and get Gauntlets, etc., meaning more freedom for the experience route if need be. Though, I'm pretty sure we can boomerang in place of any bounces in the previous run, though it might be somewhat slower.
Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
For those of you interested in the relics skip without the Flamberge that arukado mentioned earlier, here's a really rough outline of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idXbOZZdCJs
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
Right its 1000 not 2000, just bad memory, so its half zircon/garnet. So it mean you have about 900 frames to get to the garnet...? thats pretty short Its 2.5 frames to sell a zircon on average, thats with counting 100 frames for menu access And btw, we cant do what you linked in the movie lol, this takes forever I sayd 100 frames not 3000 :p It works exactly same way than flamberge you just switch screen then trow and the wolf will levitate over the gasp.
Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
arukAdo wrote:
Right its 1000 not 2000, just bad memory, so its half zircon/garnet. So it mean you have about 900 frames to get to the garnet...? thats pretty short And btw, we cant do what you linked in the movie lol, this takes forever I sayd 100 frames not 3000 :p It works exactly same way than flamberge you just switch screen then trow and the wolf will levitate over the gasp.
On the bright side, having to use the Zircon won't be nearly as awful. ~20 seconds is a lot more reasonable than 45. I still want to use the Garnet if at all possible, though. I know that the video I linked to was really slow, I was just getting questions on how it would even be possible to do Relics Skip with Boomerangs at all and wanted to put something together really quickly. Wait, how exactly does the screen transition work? Like, is the boomerang jump you're talking about the first one that is done? Or, do you do two somehow, one to get to the top corner and another to get to the next room?
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
You double jump to get to max height (if you dont watch ram dont bother trying), once at max height, you press and hold left, after switch screen you use 6 boomerangs then press wolf, he will just do a horizontal crossing over the gasp that requires the flamberge otherwise. Its same exact input than in any other movie except you have to use boomerangs instead the flamberge. It takes 600+ frames to use a Library card, imo its impossible to go for garnet. Even if it take like 200 extra frames to get the zircon theres no way you gonna kill a boss ect... in the same ammount of frames. It gotta be tested tho, just to know roughtly how long it takes. From the fairy card you gotta go lesser demon, revenge it, grab the garnet and lib card then back librarian, if you end up over say 2000 frames its moot. Edit: well, first I was wrong theres no lib card near the garnet, second you cant buy it from the librarian, and lastly it takes way over 2000 frames, revenge on lesser demon also requires the stopwatch, its definitly a no-go. Id would go personnally for no flamberge and no medusa shield, maybe we could just do both movie, its lot of work and should end up nearly the same, but if we are 3 on it less an issue already.
Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
arukAdo wrote:
You double jump to get to max height (if you dont watch ram dont bother trying), once at max height, you press and hold left, after switch screen you use 6 boomerangs then press wolf, he will just do a horizontal crossing over the gasp that requires the flamberge otherwise. Its same exact input than in any other movie except you have to use boomerangs instead the flamberge. It takes 600+ frames to use a Library card, imo its impossible to go for garnet. Even if it take like 200 extra frames to get the zircon theres no way you gonna kill a boss ect... in the same ammount of frames. It gotta be tested tho, just to know roughtly how long it takes. From the fairy card you gotta go lesser demon, revenge it, grab the garnet and lib card then back librarian, if you end up over say 2000 frames its moot. Edit: well, first I was wrong theres no lib card near the garnet, second you cant buy it from the librarian, and lastly it takes way over 2000 frames, revenge on lesser demon also requires the stopwatch, its definitly a no-go. Id would go personnally for no flamberge and no medusa shield, maybe we could just do both movie, its lot of work and should end up nearly the same, but if we are 3 on it less an issue already.
The Garnet is the gem at the bottom of the Outer Wall, not the one in the Library. The one in the Library is the Onyx, which I've also thought was a lost cause for a while now. Also, didn't I say that there wasn't a Library Card near the Onyx and that you can't buy one a while ago? :P Why shouldn't we use the Medusa Shield? Did you find something better to use? Is there another shield spell that lets us just stand there? I know there are several, and the greater freedom to gain more strength might affect which is best. We could kill a Malachi and use the Dark Shield spell, getting a level up at the same time. Have you already tried that?
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
Alucard shield is only slower by a few frames when you single cast medusa, by skiping the medusa shield we save also menu access and some frames.
Skilled player (1080)
Joined: 9/15/2013
Posts: 116
arukAdo wrote:
Alucard shield is only slower by a few frames when you single cast medusa, by skiping the medusa shield we save also menu access and some frames.
Alright. So, the strength thing isn't an issue anymore? Also, happy to get to color a vampire again. Though, would medusa shield be slower even if I was able to get you one in the first castle really quickly (killing a medusa head while heading up stairs, ie)? What if we were somehow able to get our strength a lot higher than in the last TAS?
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
You want to get a higher STR while we are killing less monster...??? thats impossible yeah And thats within 150 frames lol. Ive did the test and noted all frames... its 150 faster for medusa but it take 140 to recast, so its crystal clear that if you are lower lvl you aint gonna catch up within 150 frames. Yet we can do both movies if we want to verify this, if we are 3 tasing it should be doable.
Skilled player (1080)
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Posts: 116
arukAdo wrote:
You want to get a higher STR while we are killing less monster...??? thats impossible yeah And thats within 150 frames lol. Ive did the test and noted all frames... its 150 faster for medusa but it take 140 to recast, so its crystal clear that if you are lower lvl you aint gonna catch up within 150 frames.
So, basically getting too much HP to big toss prevents you from using the ability to skip all bounces to get more strength. Noted. No recast isn't happening, in that case, which is kind of disappointing.
Experienced player (954)
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Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
We can also make 2 movies... but its gonna be hard to keep up the quality equal on both of them, at least we could say we tryed everything possible, its so tight choices theres no way to tell if theres gonna be extra problems on the way. Movies would be strictly same up to outerwall, so would have to start recording the second there. Flamberge and no medusa would be sort pointless; you can save time on medusa by avoiding a menu access, wich youll still require for flamberge, so medusa is free if you get flamberge.
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017
Hello SotN TASers! Sockfolder discovered the 'sock skip' (pending better name). It allows you to skip Death with 1HR or 1 neutron bomb+level up. It can be used on any horizontal loading zone to appear 1 screen width 'further' into the next room. This is useful for 'all bosses' category and possibly other categories. It may be useful in other rooms in the castle. 1HR: http://www.twitch.tv/sockfolder/c/3030513 1 neutron bomb+level up: http://www.twitch.tv/sockfolder/c/3030464
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Experienced player (954)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep
Ive saw this yesterday, it only improve runs where you dont use luck mode, still its a funky trick for sure
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