Essentials

  • Emulator used: FCEU 0.98.16
  • Genre: Platform
  • Aims for fastest time
    • Takes damage to save time
  • updated: moozooh's suggested screenshot (the greatest screenshot in the history of the world)

Version Change

Note: This run uses the (U) version of Bionic Commando. The previous movie by Genisto used the (J) version.
The initial reason was to include the hilariously bad dialogue. It has been said that the (J) version is the "harder" version, but we have found that to be not entirely true. There are quite a few differences, some which made the (U) version faster, and some which made the (J) version faster.
Regarding a ROM version change, the Rules page states the following:
If there is already a published video, do not use a different ROM than what it uses, unless the new movie is obviously better for reasons that are not only caused by the version change, or the ROM is superior (or a language change), and you can show how it should be compared to the existing movie.
Since the previous run was done with the (J) version, a direct comparison of end times is not an informative enough way to measure the differences in play. So, we've separated the differences into four categories and totaled them up.
In-level difference - Gained 1463 frames
This is the (mostly) directly comparable improvement gained during each level. Time was gained from better technique for many sections, especially the bosses, as well as retracting more with the grappling hook, which moves the guy a bit faster at the exchange of slightly less distance and less landing control. Time was also gained by keeping the 3-way gun for Area 7 instead of restarting the level.
Some of the in-level difference was due to in-level changes between the two versions, such as different enemy or platform placement. A rough estimation of this difference is between 60 and 90 frames.
Text speed difference - Lost 3185 frames
The text boxes scroll slower and hold more words in this version.
Scene change difference - Gained 110 frames
Minor differences in the number of frames between two controllable scenes, such as the title screen and room transitions. This was usually faster in the (U) version.
Map route difference - Gained 1741 frames
Slower text changes the relative position of the trucks during a given route on the world map, because the helicopter does not begin traveling to another area until the text "Ok. We'll move." is fully displayed, but the trucks begin moving immediately after selecting "Transfer". This allowed for better route on the world map, with more direct routes to some areas, as well as playing one less overhead stage. (This same route in the (J) version will enter six overhead stages.)
Total difference - Gained 129 frames
If you'd like to see a complete spreadsheet of this data broken down for each segment, please ask.

Cardboard's comments

I HAVE PAID MY DUES

JXQ's comments

The Bionic Commando (J) run on this site has been one of my favorites ever since I've been here. It sometimes felt odd obsoleting it.
This game is remarkably stable to hex-edit in early improvements found into a run that is farther along. This game is remarkably unstable with FCEU while rerecording in a laggy area, such as 6, 9, 10, or 11.
Thanks to Cardboard for being my partner, and to Genisto for his previous run.

Truncated: This movie has a better route and much better playing in the levels than the previous movie.
In response to all the arguments about the version switch: I dislike version switches. If it was up to me, the rules would state that all movies be played on (U) versions, unless it didn't exist or (E) or (J) included a glitch or shortcut or game element not in the (U) version. That way we wouldn't have any of this nonsense, or people switching ROMs just because the intro or dialogue is shorter, which has no bearing on the quality of play.
Also because i dislike version switches, I'm glad that this movie has now changed back to the "real" version, which the first published movie was made with, before it changed to the (J) version for no good reason at all.
Bisqwit: I don't think we have reached a concensus about whether this should obsolete the J version or not. I'm putting it on delayed. And, I disagree with the assessment of "no good reason at all"; in my opinion, Feitclub's reasoning re: J version was good.
BoltR: Since there is no rush to make a decision about this movie, and it's just causing an argument; I am setting the status to Needs More Info. We can wait until the updated (J) version is complete and pick up the debate from there. Blame version changing.
Bisqwit: Setting back on accepted, and to obsolete the current J version. However, the question what happens when the next J version is submitted, is still open. Some say only U versions should be accepted from here on, and some say any faster version regardless of version should be accepted. There may be someone who also thinks the next J version should be published alongside, but it doesn't seem to be a likely option. Such decision however does not need to be made until such movie exists and is submitted. However, if this movie is still in the workbench at that time, it will be delayed because then also its fate is in question. (We don't publish movies that already have their obsoleter in the workbench.)
Bisqwit: Processing.

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Active player (410)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
JXQ wrote:
Phil, Though you and I cannot communicate effectively to each other, I still feel the need to defend our submission against your claims.
Is shouting aloud so people can know that we can't communicate makes you happy?
JXQ wrote:
Your statements do not change the fact that these version changes still occured, which was my point.
Yes but it can't be compared to them. They don't have as many differences like this. Imo comparing to others is bad argument. That's the "He did this, why can't I?" childish attitude.
JXQ wrote:
Lastly, if this does not obsolete the (J) version, what happens when someone improves with the (J) version? That's a bad situation waiting to happen.
I've just started a run yesterday of the REAL version.
Cardboard wrote:
Also, I am a little curious if it shouldn't have been faster for Genisto to dive under the platform, so he could still keep swing.
Cardboard wrote:
As for Area 15, Genisto could have made that first part of the level at least 10 frames faster, so the version change alone does not gain us 40 frames.
If he would know what you are saying, he would have done that. And that run is just a little modified copy of the old Famtasia to play with FCEU. He did fix things so the movie stay in sync. Btw, I don't know what do you mean by dive under the platform. Can you make some picture? If you mean the same platform where he fall on after doing the "pass through wall" glitch then I am not sure if it's possible. Otherwise I did improve that part by 10 frames and didn't finished testing.
Skilled player (1670)
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A good TAS:er would have found this out himself, since it's mentioned in... every FAQ (Knowledge is power): http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5095/The%20way%28J%29.fcm (With the Hitler-ROM)
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Active player (410)
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Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Cardboard wrote:
A good TAS:er would have found this out himself, since it's mentioned in... every FAQ (Knowledge is power): http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5095/The%20way%28J%29.fcm (With the Hitler-ROM)
Wow. Kinda insulting. Anyway, your supposed discovery is nothing exceptional. I thought you mean something else. What you found and think is superior by attacking Genisto is not so exceptional. In fact, you did some error in that video too.
upthorn
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Active player (388)
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Phil wrote:
Tas authors wrote:
It has been said that the (J) version is the "harder" version, but we have found that to be not entirely true.
I remember watching the old Bionic Commando then Feitclub had submitted Hitler No Fukkatsu and differences were noticeable. J version is harder. So please explain why it's not true. Btw, changing version just because of "hilariously bad dialogue" is not an excellent reason.
Phil. I thought you had left TASVideos. Why are you back here, starting arguments with JXQ and Cardboard?
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Phil, you're quick to mention your reasons against (U), but ignore our reasons against (J). Conversely, our submission text is very clear to the pros and cons of both versions. You are using slant to try and make yourself appear right, and we are telling all the information so each person can decide for themselves. There is no, as you put it, "REAL version".
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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What I try to explain but quickly get attacked by Carboard is that I have no objection that your movie be published. It's well done and such. I think U and J can coexist. I did voted No because you want your run to obsolete a different game which I am against. I thought I was clear.
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
That wasn't clear to me, but it is now, so thank you for clarifying.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Skilled player (1090)
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Voting yes on this submission. It's been a good few months since I last saw Genisto's run so I won't comment on how I thought it compared. As a TAS, however, it was great and very entertaining. What I like most about this game is the interesting form of movement (off the top of my head I can only remember also seeing it in Umihara Kawase) which adds good variety and action. Although I can't remember the real specifics of Genisto's run I do know that it was considered near perfection. This run shows large improvement from a technical side also, which of course is great. Excellent work JXQ and Cardboard.
Active player (410)
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JXQ wrote:
That wasn't clear to me, but it is now, so thank you for clarifying.
For better clarification, here are my pros and cons for using U and J versions. Bionic Commando Pros English text (Though it may be a con for japanese audience) Funny engrish (Mostly noticeable by those that excels at English) Cons Nonsensical dialogues (It may be a pro for a minority of people) Long text (Bad for people that want to only see action) Master D :S Hitler No Fukkatsu Pros Not censored and some sort of authenticity . (It does have Nazis swastikas and final boss named Hitler as the picture suggest.) Short text (Good for those that want action but bad for people that loves to read ;) Con Japanese text (Though it may be a a pro for japanese audience) Authors suggested that their movie replace the japanese version movie. As I said, I don't agree. It reminds me of Castlevania 3. The US version is harder while the J does have better sound. Also for the U version you can enter a name that unlock the hardest mode which make, imo, the US version interesting. If we take the same arguments, English text, J version is not harder,etc, then a CV3 US movie should obsolete the J version. Is it true? While people love music of Akumajou Densetsu, I love the uncensored parts of Hitler No Fukkatsu. Also the differences in both versions are outnumbered. It's 2 different games.
upthorn wrote:
Phil. I thought you had left TASVideos. Why are you back here, starting arguments with JXQ and Cardboard?
I didn't left TASVideos. I thought the main goal of the Workbench forum is to give opinions and arguments of the submitted runs. Did I do something wrong?
Player (147)
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA
I personally don't care which version is used as long as I can see Hitler's head explode.
Nach wrote:
I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
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Location: Heather's imagination
VANDAL wrote:
I also found that the old run utilized the waiting times with more diversity in the entertainment department so that's another downside.
I don't remember which one is which but one of the two versions disables your movements when the core is exploding and the other doesn't.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
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(U) freezes your character as the boss asplodes, but that can be (and usually was) worked around by starting a grapple before the asplosion that connects after the asplosion starts.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Experienced player (612)
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Consider my Meh vote obsolete since that's the only problem, which couldn't be helped... much, that I had with the run. Awesome job by you, JXQ, and Cardboard.
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JXQ or Cardboard: Is there an 8 frames rule in Bionic Commando?
Skilled player (1670)
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We are not sure. There is some kind of frame rule, yes, but we are not 100% sure of the size of it. EDIT: I do not think it's 8, I think it's smaller, but I'm not sure at all. We almost never suffered from this. Also, about the pros/cons texting, yes the text is faster in J, so the action fans will drool more over the J-run, but the text is unskipable, so using U at least makes it readable, and therefore, a little more entertaining, in my opinion.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Joined: 8/13/2005
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Location: Canada
I enjoyed watching this movie and consider it an improvement.
Active player (410)
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Cardboard wrote:
We are not sure. There is some kind of frame rule, yes, but we are not 100% sure of the size of it. EDIT: I do not think it's 8, I think it's smaller, but I'm not sure at all. We almost never suffered from this.
Ok in HnF, there is an 8 frame rule which costs me some frames at level 15. Also, I forgot to mention that more enemies in HnF may be not make the game harder(Though, I have no 100% proof) but it can cause lag where BC doesn't.
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
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Posts: 3132
Bisqwit wrote:
I don't think we have reached a concensus about whether this should obsolete the J version or not. I'm putting it on delayed.
If you have a strong enough of an opinion on this to supercede Truncated's decision on this submission, could you respond to our reasoning for this to obsolete (J)? Specifically, this post.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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JXQ wrote:
I am curious to know the origin for the rule about not changing versions.
To keep the playing ground even. It is one of the rules that exist for the situations, where the previous author might have chosen a game/route that is slower to complete, but more entertaining to watch. I want to protect that kind of choices, so that "fast completion" (or something else) does not become a singular goal that overruns every creative idea.
JXQ wrote:
What I understand from this sentence is that the new "obviously better" movie should be better for reasons other than a version change, which can only mean an improvement that is possible on both versions. This essentially says that changing versions is okay as long as there is an improvement, after version differences are removed. This submission meets that qualification.
I disagree on the "after version differences are removed" part. Meaningless differences, such as "level transition takes 100 frames in version A, 90 frames in version B", yes. Meaningful differences are those which affect the viewing experience. The uncensored graphics in the Japanese version are part of that value in my opinion; the loss of them should be weighed together with other meaningful differences. Such differences are unfortunately unquantizable by nature, which is why we are still discussing. But that doesn't make them any less real. In my opinion, Phil made a better attempt at summarizing them than you.
JXQ wrote:
It's not like Cardboard and I are trying to deceive anyone with a version switch.
No, of course not. But you went ahead, making the submission, without any prior discussion. As such you're undertaking the hardest risk that once your movie is complete, it will suffer an unfavorable judgement, because of an inherent design choice. It happened to Xebra. Let's forget about timings. In my opinion, the uncensored theme in the game is of bigger entertainment than the Engrish dialog texts.** So if someone later makes a submission that is exactly as fast as yours (ignoring version timing differences), but made with the Japanese version instead of the English version, should the new submission obsolete yours? In my opinion, yes. However, it would be a stupid submission ― I hate to have those on my site because they're so meaningless; it's just patching someone else's mistake without contributing much new. That's why I'd strongly have hoped you had made your movie with the J version instead (to avoid the scenario I just described), and why I don't feel happy about your submission. ** But I realize this is not everyone's opinion. The question is, is it of majority or minority opinion? __________________________ P.s.: It is explode, not asplode. Don't teach bad spelling; it will spread where you don't want it to, by people who don't understand your reference.
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Added one Y-vote to the pile. I would let the two different versions coexist as an educational example of censorship in video games.
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Aqfaq wrote:
I would let the two different versions coexist as an educational example of censorship in video games.
And which version should get the star? :P
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Reading the thread, it seems that most people who mention the version change are either happy with it, or indifferent. There are only a few people against it, but one of those people is talking very loudly and frequently, perhaps creating the impression that their point of view is more supported than it really is. The vote count is also quite staggered in one direction, and although this is less telling than individual posts, it still is an indicator to be considered. Thus, I am surprised that you say there has not been a consensus. There won't be a full consensus obviously, but the majority seems pretty clear to me. I feel like your changing the status of the submission had the subtext of "Discuss this again until you reach the correct decision." It seems the basic conflict is uncensored graphics vs. badly translated text. As you said, these are not quantizable, and an argument could be made for either based on personal preference. I do not think the solution to this is to just default to the previous version, as I think this is limiting to the ones who submit movies. (P.S. Spelling things correctly will not stop grammar mistakes on the internet. I have a firm belief that one person cannot change anything on a grand scale.)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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I suppose the star can be recycled… Aqfaq's post is a good suggestion, but I want to hear more opinions :)
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Baxter wrote:
And which version should get the star? :P
The higher rated one.
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In the submission text Bisqwit referred to, Feitclub wrote: "It's up to you whether or not you want to replace my first time attack with this one, or list this separately as a different game. Personally, I would replace it (as this run is faster) but leave the Bionic Commando FMV available for download." Although he listed differences in the games, even back then they were not listed as better or worse, just different. However he did bring up the only two justifiable options, I think. Either replace the older movie, as this run is faster, or list this separately as a different game. If people really like seeing the Nazi references, I see no problems publishing both movies, however for me personally it doesn't make any difference. While the history of video games is interesting, history is meant to be studied, not glanced at during a speedrun as the symbols zip by. My $.02.
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