They appeared in the post correctly for me, but I changed them to direct links now.
Aglar wrote:
I had a discussion with you about this before, where I proposed a strategy where you stand on the flat ground to the left of the tube in the loop-back area and wait for the camera to get to a certain position, then start mashing the jump buttons while holding right. I retried this strat now and it works basically every time, though I don't remember if the position of the camera for when to jump is same as I said back then. So you should jump and mash the buttons and hold right when the camera reaches somewhere inside the blue rectangle here: http://i.imgur.com/9N3lelw.jpg
So quite some margin actually. You can try to see which position that works best for you, though aiming for the middle part should be the safest.
I would caution against thinking a particular strategy works every time. As I said I've tried all sorts of setups and timings, including the spot you point out. There have been times where I succeeded as many as 20 times in a row and thought I "decrypted the secret" only to fail it later on with what I swear was the exact same setup. Keep in mind that jump and flight timing will always vary in real time.
I need to know what determines whether Tails winds up here or here, because like I said once you reach that frame, further input will not help.
Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden
HDL wrote:
Keep in mind that jump and flight timing will always vary in real time.
Yeah, that's why I suggested that particular way as it leaves quite some margin for different inputs to occur while still being able to work. A test showed that there's at least 70 y-pixel positions that Tails can be at when the trick succeeds (y-positions 915-975 if you watch it using the lua HUD, then then there's some pixels in the range of about 906-914 that won't work if your y-speed downwards is too low, then the pixels 888-905 will also work). Remember that holding 'right' just as you have shifted to the boss room is a must. Try performing it on emulator with frameadvance and use the lua HUD to watch your position.
I could give some more info about how it works exactly, but it wouldn't really be that relevant for RTA:s. If you really want it I can ask marzojr to do some deeper research though.
I actually did a bit more testing before I saw your post, and I forgot to turn the HUD on. I still did learn some new things, though:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hl65zdxt3gh8b3c/DE2.mp4
There's at least one other spot Tails can wind up in. If you hold right and press no buttons, you will get stuck and be able to zip around (this is the most common type of failure). But if you fly early inside the wall, you'll get stuck in that pocket of air like the video shows.
The interesting part is when you delay the flight a bit. You'll successfully go to the pipe from all the way down there even though it totally looks like that shouldn't work. My guess is that whenever I succeed in real time, what's actually happening is that I just happened to have the correct delay during my mashing so as not to fly too early or too late. From my understanding if I can learn this timing I might be able to manipulate it to work every time (I'll try and test to see how large this window is, I already know it's larger than 1-2 frames).
I'll do some more testing later with HUD turned on and check out y-position pixels too.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
It seems that even Hyper Sonic is not fast enough to reach the good Y position after the horizontal underflow in Hydrocity 1. However, it’s possible to zip again and enter the boss room from backwards.
Recorded this just for fun. Enjoy.
Link to video
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
My mistake, I have not tried this route. By the way, thanks for the gmv — now I see that it may be possible to beat this level with Amy+Tails exactly the same way as this gmv shows.
Not fastest?.. Do you want to say that you’ve somehow managed to enter the wall by catching Sonic with Tails while falling and entering the wall from the corner at (X: 390, Y: 1004)? Apologies for an attempt to guess (I remember that you asked me to stay silent), but if you want my brain to explode, you have to give it a chance to escape ;)
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Hey, can anybody give me some tips about... movement? I'm new to TASing and while I've picked up on certain aspects of the game, I'm not sure exactly how to optimize them.
Like, slopes: I know it's faster to roll down a slope than to run normally and jumping often seems to go even faster than that. Is there a way to optimize those results by doing it during a specific frame in Sonic's animation, maybe? I don't know. I'm probably missing out on some other basic, minor details that could help improve my videos besides that.
It would probably be best to just watch one and get an idea of where I'm at, what I'm doing right and wrong. In case you guys want to help or are interested, you can see my video for Knuckles in Ice Cap Zone, act 1 below. I guess it would be considered a playaround, or a ring run pseudo speed run.
Not my most recent work, but I think a good example to use for this post none the less since I do scale the entire mountain in the beginning (which accounts for like 1/3rd of the video (which, hopefully will find a lot more interesting during and after the descent)) and inclines/slopes are one thing that I'm really not sure I'm doing optimally.
With that said, here's the video and please feel free to comment about anything.
Link to video
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
You need to use RAM watch or, better, marzojr’s Lua HUD, to determine when exactly do do certain actions (rolling, jumping and so on). It includes a simple jump predictor, and you’ll see what speed you’ll have after pressing jump button.
It’s useless to rely on character animation, instead, you should work with such values as X, Y, on-ground speed, X/Y pixel and subpixel positions, slope angle and so on.
Your TAS is very good for a beginner. Next time consider faster (and funnier) climbing, like shown in many Qwerty’s movies like this one. To know how the things are done, just look for some existing gmv file.
Link to video
You may also watch this for some inspiration
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Thanks for the helpful post WST.
It's about time I started using marzojr's HUD, I've actually been meaning to look into it for some time. The jump predictor works great. I haven't spent a lot of time working with it yet so beyond that I'm not really sure how else to use it for now. Oh well, maybe I'll figure it out better as time goes on.
Apparently the author of the second video you linked to has since abandoned that project. That's too bad, it might have been interesting to discuss routes and whatnot with him sometime.
First of all I want to say that I'm not sure if this glitch is new, but I haven't seen it anywhere.
I found a zip in death egg 1 and eventually found that you can level wrap with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5yXhqv6IBk
However I've found no way to the boss, whether or not it is possible I dont know. This is also possible with tails. So maybe if someone wants to look into it or something.
Qwerty found that zip months ago (and maybe other TASes too) but didn't think of going right enough before left.. He had not enough speed to wrap the level:
Link to video
And as it is say in the comments, it's useless because you will never come to the end by this way.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
feeuzz22 wrote:
He had not enough speed to wrap the level
The fact that he went off screen in the game where the camera’s speed is 6144 subpixels per frame, makes it quite obvious that the speed was enough for the trick to work. I guess there is another reason, which can be visible only if we see a gmv.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
The fact that he went off screen in the game where the camera’s speed is 6144 subpixels per frame, makes it quite obvious that the speed was enough for the trick to work. I guess there is another reason, which can be visible only if we see a gmv.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
Nice. I tried that place with Amy a lot, and failed to get into the wall, I think it’s impossible for her…
Anyway, when you’ll become a better optimizer? :) Anytime you say you beat someone, it’s always all about a new trick. Of course, it’s very important part of speedrunning, but if you add just one little element — heavy optimization — you’ll be able to make TASes of submittable quality yourself…
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Nice. I tried that place with Amy a lot, and failed to get into the wall, I think it’s impossible for her…
I guess, he used a trick doable only with knux to enter the wall both of Amy or Hyper Sonic can't do it by this way, but maybe it's still possible.. (maybe faster).
It is a Knuckles-only trick -- he glides into the wall to climb it. Since the check to start climbing is done before the sprite collision check, he starts to climb the wall and overlaps the sprite; he can then climb down enough to trigger sprite ejection to push him into the wall.
The fact that he went off screen in the game where the camera’s speed is 6144 subpixels per frame, makes it quite obvious that the speed was enough for the trick to work. I guess there is another reason, which can be visible only if we see a gmv.
I haven't really played around with TAS tools for this, but I have a gmv of my method to level wrap, I think jumping just before you level wrap allows you to be at the correct height to clip the left boundary, here's the GMV: http://www.mediafire.com/?0f3lllm0hvh396p
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
So, Qwerty simply didn't try to jump, lol... I hate when my idols like Qwerty disappoint me. Anyway, now is the time to try finding a way to take proper Y position quickly enough to be able to reach the boss room (if it's possible there -- I am lazy to see the level map right now). Maybe Tails could help, like in Hydrocity 1
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
What a great day! First my birthday and setting a new WR TAS!!! In Flying Battery Zone Act 1 with the time of: 38:43sec!
Sadly. I was only 3ms slower the Qwerty. Overall 4sec quicker! <<SUBJECT>> aka me. ^^
Overall saved: 40sec!
Flying Battery Zone Act 1 new time: 38:07sec
Flying Battery Zone Act 2 my time : 1:m:16sec
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7YxCDfpFPg
GMV: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/
I'm not a speed runner, but a game lurker, that's my contribution to the scene. =)
Made a TAS of Lava Reef 1, it an probably still be optimized a little though, to my knowledge it's the TAS record, any tips would be greatly appreciated:
Link to video
EDIT: http://www.mediafire.com/?cof3t611mwc1uyo GMV with savestate, Played on Sonic 3 and Knuckles rom with Gens11a
It can still be optimized a lot. I know lots of improvements for this level, but you will have to wait until the run Aglar and I are making makes it to the workbench (it loses the surprise value otherwise).
