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Posted: 3/5/2013 9:35 PM
Post subject: Floor glitch pause/unpause
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SideofClouds
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Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
I found a glitch (sort of) while testing if the newt suit would be useful in stage four at the room with the rising floor: http://youtu.be/JZFNH4JGwog ... normally you would get stuck and die but if you pause/unpause in a specific way the floor won't rise and you'll be able to pass through.
Posted: 3/13/2013 9:21 PM
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SideofClouds
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Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
Finished stage 1 on which I spent most of the time figuring out what 'dance moves' to do in the elevator area ... also I've tested out whether the NEWT suit would be useful in later stages and it isn't ... furthermore I had to carefully choose which enemies to kill and in what order so that I won't lose time while moving and to get 3 valuable items in the elevator section ... enjoy :) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/537178627/TAS%20WIP%20-%20Power%20Blade%202%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D%20-%20Levels%203%2C1.fm2
Posted: 3/14/2013 3:53 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
This WIP is one of the most awesome TAS examples I've seen lately.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 3/21/2013 7:12 PM
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SideofClouds
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Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
Here is the WIP with level/stage 2 finished: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/868639859/TAS%20WIP%20-%20Power%20Blade%202%20-%20Levels%203%2C1%2C2%20.fm2 I think the mid level boss (dragon) battle can be improved if you can find a way to manipulate his movements so that he'll go across the screen and shoot twice ... in my version the dragon shoots twice, goes across then shoots twice again (he doesn't get to do the last part though hehe). Other observations: 1) If you shoot immediately after you slide jump you can (sometimes) maintain your speed ... also depends on context (works pretty well in water) 2) I didn't use the pause/unpause glitch at the room with the rising fire (even though it works) because I would have to do it for a long portion of it ... and it's pretty annoying for your ears .... you can choose to do it only to pass under a medium sized platform (the one on which capn' Saver collects a power-up) but then you'll still have to wait for the fire to go down again and it would look silly ... so not worth it. Tell me what you think.
Posted: 3/22/2013 3:25 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Does pause save at least some frames? I'd say go for it if so, the sound is not much of a problem here.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 3/22/2013 3:28 PM
Post subject: Power Blade 2 wip: YouTube
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antd
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
Link to video
SideofClouds wrote:
Here is the WIP with level/stage 2 finished: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/868639859/TAS%20WIP%20-%20Power%20Blade%202%20-%20Levels%203%2C1%2C2%20.fm2
Posted: 3/22/2013 4:43 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Thanks for the encode, antd! The run looks solid so far, and you have good playarounds in the autoscrolling segments. It's just a shame there's so many of those. Bossfights with the rocket suit are also quite impressive. I'm curious why you get the wetsuit though, since it's only used for a single short segment. And why did you take so much damage in the water dragon fight?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 3/22/2013 7:32 PM
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SideofClouds
He/Him
Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
feos wrote:
Does pause save at least some frames? I'd say go for it if so, the sound is not much of a problem here.
Okay, I'll see what I can do and post about it.
antd wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJcbLVYn9Vc
Thanks for the encode! :) It's weird that some portions look different in the video compared to when actually replaying the TAS wip in FCEUX (and I tried higher quality res) ... or is it just my old PC? :P
Derakon wrote:
I'm curious why you get the wetsuit though, since it's only used for a single short segment. And why did you take so much damage in the water dragon fight?
The Wet Suit saves a lot of time in stages 4 and 5 (play the game and you'll see). When I'm taking damage the dragon also takes damage while I'm sliding (3 hp per hit to be precise) and it allows me to kill him faster ... if I were to normally hit him with the 'fiery boomerang' I would lose about 10 frames (I hit him 4 times while in the form of bouncy spike ball which accounts to 4*16 = 64 frames saved minus 54 frames (the time to gain back health at the end of battle)) ... 4*16 because of the 16 frame rule where the frequency of dealing damage is one hit at each 16 frames (at best) ........ oh and the fiery boomerang also does 3 dmg
Posted: 3/22/2013 9:10 PM
(Edited: 3/22/2013 10:00 PM)
Post subject: Down with the flame of Udun
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SideofClouds
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Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
Mkay, so the rising fire glitch saves 101 frames. Pros: saves 101 frames Cons: bad sound effects + I have to get the power-up for the boomerang later and to redo the remaining areas and hopefully get a small battery http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/948331456/WIP%20-%20Power%20Blade%202%20testing%20fire%20glitch.fm2 So what do you guys say ... yay or nay? http://youtu.be/J0orq5xMqwA ... video not private anymore (my bad)
Posted: 3/22/2013 9:53 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
The video's private, so I can't see it. Generally I'm inclined to trust the TASer when it comes to speed/entertainment tradeoffs, especially when they're as clear-cut as this one. Also, thanks for the explanation of the wetsuit + dragon fight.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 3/23/2013 5:31 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
I like it, looks far less expected than anything other. The sound isn't that bad btw.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 3/23/2013 2:26 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Hm, yeah, since it's for such a short time I'd say it adds rather than subtracts from entertainment. If we were going to be stuck with that sound effect for several minutes then it'd be a different story.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 3/23/2013 3:52 PM
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SideofClouds
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Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
Okay, so pause-stopping the fire it is then ... I'll post again when stage 4 is finished as well.
Posted: 3/23/2013 11:51 PM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Thank you for the encode, antd! Even though i don't know the game, i enjoyed watching your wip a lot, SideofClouds. Keep up the great work! Congratulations!
Posted: 3/25/2013 9:24 PM
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SideofClouds
He/Him
Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
Quick update: currently I'm improving the existing WIP (already managed to save 123 frames till area 6 of the first stage woohoo) and I'll have to completely redo some parts where Capn' Saver dances on music ... so it might take a while till next post.
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Even though i don't know the game, i enjoyed watching your wip a lot, SideofClouds. Keep up the great work! Congratulations!
Thanks man!
Posted: 3/26/2013 3:16 AM
Post subject: Youtube / Emulator differences
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antd
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
SideofClouds wrote:
It's weird that some portions look different in the video compared to when actually replaying the TAS wip in FCEUX (and I tried higher quality res) ... or is it just my old PC? :P
It might be because I upscaled the video to 1080p HD resolution. Also could be due to youtube's lack of 60 fps playback. Colourspace may be slightly different too.
Posted: 3/26/2013 3:49 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
If you redo dances, keep in mind that you don't have to always twitch at 30 Hz, varying the rate is a good thing. Especially when it also causes some sound effect.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 5/1/2013 9:49 PM
Post subject: Levels 3,1,2,4
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SideofClouds
He/Him
Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
It's been a while since I last posted some progress due to the fact that I had many school projects ... but here is the WIP with the first 4 stages completed: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1132894980/WIP%20-%20Power%20Blade%202%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D%20-%20Levels%201-4.fm2 I decided to skip 2 small batteries because I was waiting a few frames for them to show up and in the case that I do need some extra energy to get to defeat the first boss in stage 6 I'll just backtrack and get one ... or I won't use the suit in a room (will have to see how it goes). A good time saver came from the fact that you could keep your speed a little longer after slide jumping and shooting (due to the shooting animation I guess) ... so you'll see some 'random' shooting around the stages (it worked really well with swim suit in water). I somehow got really lucky and didn't have to waste my time trying to manipulate luck at the second dragon battle ... he jumped across the screen and shot twice (that's the fastest pattern needed to kill him). Stage 4 boss was a bit of a challenge since he had a twin ... and in memory his health showed up to be 128! ... but his real health was actually 64 and only for the right one the value would decrease when I hit him and for the other one I had to watch the health bar on the screen to see when his health dropped ... my tactic was to make them jump close to each other and hit em' both with the same shots as many times as possible (keep in mind the 16 frame rule). In the autoscrolling parts where I had to wait I tried to keep it as entertaining as possible ('dancing', synchronizing movements/shots to music). Please let me know what you think ... what parts did you like and what parts you didn't like [and why]. Just be honest with me mmkay? :)
Posted: 5/2/2013 10:47 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
It now looks just as great as the game itself is. Amusing fashion. The only sad thing is the place where you have to wait for a floor to reach certain levels for you to slide. I guess you used the pause freeze in all possible places there though. I have a thought about the fire freezing pausing. Can pause be spread throughout the room so that it doesn't occur as a huge bunch of presses? It'd be fun if you actually don't pause when you're in a narrow place, but pause when it's wide, somewhat breaks the expectation. Syncing pause to music can also be good. Link to video
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 5/2/2013 3:20 PM
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SideofClouds
He/Him
Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
feos wrote:
It now looks just as great as the game itself is. Amusing fashion. The only sad thing is the place where you have to wait for a floor to reach certain levels for you to slide. I guess you used the pause freeze in all possible places there though.
Thank you ... and yes I did the best I could to save time there, I even tried to see if the Newt suit could save time by climbing onto the walls but to my frustration, it didn't work.
feos wrote:
I have a thought about the fire freezing pausing. Can pause be spread throughout the room so that it doesn't occur as a huge bunch of presses? It'd be fun if you actually don't pause when you're in a narrow place, but pause when it's wide, somewhat breaks the expectation. Syncing pause to music can also be good.
That's a pretty good idea and I just tested that and yes, it is possible to spread the pause throughout the room :) ... I'm either going to make a song out of it or sync it to the background music, will see ... hopefully it will be less annoying and more entertaining. Also, thanks for encoding the WIP so others can see :D
Posted: 5/2/2013 4:22 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
I don't think the pausing is annoying right now, but if you think you can make it better, by all means, go for it. :) The run looks good! Energy management looks tough though. Thanks for the encode, feos!
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 5/2/2013 4:23 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
It's not annoying, it's just out of the "like a pro" fashion.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 5/9/2013 11:51 AM
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SideofClouds
He/Him
Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
Here's my attempt to make the pause-glitch across the fire room more pleasant: Link to video And here's the older version: Link to video However, the new version has 3 more lag frames than the first one... I've also been working on stage 5 and things are going pretty well. Currently I'm at area 5 with the side-scrolling moving snake blocks (or whatever they are) ... problem is that extra jumping/shooting/moving too fancy (even getting stuck between blocks) causes lag frames (about 2-3 per jump/shot) and I have to make a choice ... either go for optimality, not cause any lag frames which will probably result in a more boring area ... or sacrifice some time to make it more entartaining. I'm going to do both versions and post them here and let you guys decide.
Posted: 5/9/2013 2:21 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
For the pausing, I have to say I think the old version is better, mostly because it keeps the pause sound to one big "chunk" instead of playing it over and over again. For the snake blocks, that's a tricky problem, and I don't know how to advise you. Good luck!
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 5/25/2013 1:57 PM
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SideofClouds
He/Him
Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 20
Location: Romania
Stage 5 is finished, yay! http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1986509721/WIP-Power-Blade2-stages-1-5.fm2 I remade the boss battle with the twin cyborgs(robots) from stage 4 because I found out that the shot animation when you are in the air gets canceled when you land and you can perform other actions right after that! ... so I saved about 75-80 frames by placing myself in between the twins and making small jumps to do double shots (I even show this at the end of the battle). One important thing to mention is that the loading screens also have some frame rule where if you finish faster the next room will show up at the same time even if you finished a little slow ... and in some cases, finishig quicker may produce additional lag frames in further areas which is annoying. Now onto stage 5: - in the first area I had to slay the flying robot with laser, otherwise the game would lag and lose more frames if I hadn't done that - in the second area I'm trying to keep it entertaining while going up on those moving platforms - in the 3rd area I'm saving time by bumping into one of the runners which propels me at a great speed towards the exit - 4th area: just skipping the cutscene + a shot to the face at the woman - 5th area: keeping it entartaining ... I sacrificed a few frames for entertainment - 6th area: raining death from above and grabbing a small battery - area 7: just swimming downwards and avoiding enemies - area 8: going up ... and that's about it - area 9: the first balloon producing machine causes a lot of lag frames so I get rid of it as fast as possible - area 10: I get rid of the two female disc throwing robots because they cause lots of lag At the boss battle I jump a lot to cancel shot animations and to destroy the suckers attached to the ceiling while still doing damage to the boss according to the 16 frame rule ... for the last stage I'm left with 16 units of energy which translates to about 16*400 = 6400 frames with the suit ... not very much considering that the last stage is the longest and i have to defeat the first boss with at least 1 unit of energy to spare. It just occured to me that I might be able to save some time by not using the suit in the first area (since i go back to normal in the next room and the transformation takes 1-2 seconds) ... i just tested that and at first glance it saved about 16 frames XD (my bad) ... but I don't want to leave you guys with nothing so I'm posting this anyway. The next post with the final stage will probably be put on hold for more than a month or so since I'll be busy with studying for exams and going to work ... also I want to make a real-time play of the game following the exact same path in the TAS (stages 3,1,2,4,5,6) and post it in the 'Let's see you play something' topic of the forum ... just to have a comparison.
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