This is a TAS of Joust for PC DOS until no new content appears. Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
Objectives:
- 1 Player
- Complete all unique content (plays until no new content appears)
- Makes speed and entertainment trade-offs (focus on maximum entertainment and head-bashing)
- Still ends input early (*really* early)
- Contains death abuse
The PC version of this game has substantially different physics from the other versions. In particular, this version plays much faster. I'm able to end input extremely early during wave 9 and allow the physics engine to do the rest of the work for me. Note: The temporary encode I made is much longer than it needs to be due to walking away for a bit too long during the dumping process.
Nach: From all the Joust runs submitted, I may have enjoyed this one the most.
However, feedback was mediocre, and this run is also incomplete, as the rules state the criteria for completion is as follows: "Games that loop endlessly can still be defined. The completion point is one where there is no new content, and the game is no longer increasing in difficulty."
Since the game does increase in difficulty for later waves with more distractions from the pterodactyl, and spawning enemies which move considerably faster, I am deeming this run incomplete. Several more waves need to be played, and a later cycle must be reached. Rejecting.
Now you're thinking with portals! No... wait... I just don't know any more... I think I've had a Joust overdose.
So I take it that you end the input early and then the character automatically runs into its doom over and over again? It looks kinda messy, but maybe it can't be helped... As for the entertainment value, well, this run is not un-entertaining, I can tell you that much. Maybe this sensation translates to 'meh'.
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AKheon wrote:
Now you're thinking with portals! No... wait... I just don't know any more... I think I've had a Joust overdose.
I have definitely had a joust overdose. :)
AKheon wrote:
So I take it that you end the input early and then the character automatically runs into its doom over and over again? It looks kinda messy, but maybe it can't be helped... As for the entertainment value, well, this run is not un-entertaining, I can tell you that much. Maybe this sensation translates to 'meh'.
So I end input *extremely* early. The game continues to have the bird running in the same direction because I never told it not to, so eventually he just ends up in the lava. The truth is that when I was dumping the video I walked away a bit too long so the encode I uploaded runs far longer than it ought to. Please make your judgment on the basis of the completion of the last wave. Thanks!
Fast and hilarious. Yes vote!
Can we also have a run of Conquest, which is Windmill Software's rendition of Joust? It became popular several years before this port did, and features wind physics. I'm pretty sure it's freeware by now.
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I would like to formally request that this specific run be re-judged (and not group-judged with the same typo in the rejection message as other Joust runs) based on the following:
This specific port does complete all new game content, as evidenced by the overly-long encode showing wave 10. The red-lanced enemies appear in wave 1 and the grey-lanced enemies appear in wave 4. The Pterodactyl appears in wave 8. The encode continuing to wave 10 shows that a failure to pick up an egg produces a grey-lanced enemy. Further, wave 7 demonstrates that the color of the bird makes no difference anyway as faster spawn speeds present by the time that level arrives allow for repeatedly jumping on the head of an enemy the frame it can move, meaning even if it could fly faster it is still eliminated shortly after the invulnerability wears off.
In other words, for this port, all content is encountered in one form or another in the first 9 waves.
In full disclosure, there is one other possible reason that this run *could* be rejected that perhaps isn't obvious, but is also easily fixable with a longer movie file: jpc-rr allows you to independently depress and release keys so at the end of this movie file I depress the run right button and never bother to release it (hence the "May contain emulator abuse." warning). This could be remedied if requested by simply extending the movie to show holding down the right arrow key until the last contact on wave 9, but I personally think it's OK as it is as you could theoretically trick the OS into thinking the key was still held down even on a real keyboard.
Finally, please take into consideration that this rather different Joust run was released in a batch of 5 Joust port runs and likely received far less feedback due to dilution (further diluted by Stars-tier runs submitted at the same time). The feedback that was received for this specific run was positive. The voting was skewed by people (I won't name names :) who voted No on all of the Joust runs at the same time without considering the strengths and weaknesses of the various runs (and I'll be the first to admit that there were weaknesses in some of my other runs).
My intended tier for this run is Moons (because a run with entertainment vs. speed trade-offs is generally not eligible for the Vault). Some time was spent using the faster flapping speed allowed in this port to clip through platforms and jettison eggs in strange directions which overall strengthened the entertainment value rather than detracted from it in my opinion. If this run after careful review is only suitable for the Vault, the consideration should be made that the only actual lost time is waiting for an egg to hit the lava rather than collecting it, during which time the bird is being positioned for the next wave anyway so any lost time due to entertainment is actually debatable..
I hereby request that this run be re-judged on its own merits based on the evidence I've provided. If the specific rejection reason remains "go do some more levels", please provide specific exit criteria appropriate for this port of the game for future TAS'ers to aspire to. Thank you for your reconsideration!
I'm at wave 20 right now, and I can say that things do differ! Different platforms disappear, at wave 16 shadow lords start spawning. But while after wave 16 there's no unique content, only after wave 42 it's no longer more difficult! As in, that is the first wave where all enemies are shadow lords.
http://seanriddle.com/jwaves.html
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
I'm at wave 20 right now, and I can say that things do differ! Different platforms disappear, at wave 16 shadow lords start spawning. But while after wave 16 there's no unique content, only after wave 42 it's no longer more difficult! As in, that is the first wave where all enemies are shadow lords.
http://seanriddle.com/jwaves.html
Now *that* is an interesting result!
feos, if you are at all interested, you are welcome to submit a DOS Joust TAS; I won't have time anytime soon to get all the way to wave 42 (if that really is the ultimate answer, pun intended :).
I'm at wave 20 right now, and I can say that things do differ! Different platforms disappear, at wave 16 shadow lords start spawning. But while after wave 16 there's no unique content, only after wave 42 it's no longer more difficult! As in, that is the first wave where all enemies are shadow lords.
http://seanriddle.com/jwaves.html
Now *that* is an interesting result!
feos, if you are at all interested, you are welcome to submit a DOS Joust TAS; I won't have time anytime soon to get all the way to wave 42 (if that really is the ultimate answer, pun intended :).
Well, according to the list, it seems after wave 56 does it truely start looping. Also what exactly happens after wave 90? Game over? Kill screen? Loop back to wave 1?
One more thing: Does something similar apply to the other versions?
I mean I'm in the NES version. Just saying that it doesn't get any harder only after wave 42. BUT: after wave 20 it gets REALLY REALLY old. So I'd like to stop somewhere sooner, or it will be a dead vault run. The guy in the other thread said it should stop after shadow lords appear...
I summon Nach in this thread!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
I mean I'm in the NES version. Just saying that it doesn't get any harder only after wave 42. BUT: after wave 20 it gets REALLY REALLY old. So I'd like to stop somewhere sooner, or it will be a dead vault run. The guy in the other thread said it should stop after shadow lords appear...
I summon Nach in this thread!
OK, so I now understand that you're only talking about the NES version, which gives me some hope that I wasn't completely wrong, but I do not currently have the time to go play more of the DOS version of Joust to find out if there is any more content. Nach, I also summon you to this thread - what exactly do you want to see here? Please, be specific, what endpoint is good enough for you for the DOS version of Joust so I (or someone else with more free time) can satisfy the requirement?
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dwangoAC wrote:
I would like to formally request that this specific run be re-judged (and not group-judged with the same typo in the rejection message as other Joust runs) based on the following:
Finally, please take into consideration that this rather different Joust run was released in a batch of 5 Joust port runs and likely received far less feedback due to dilution (further diluted by Stars-tier runs submitted at the same time). The feedback that was received for this specific run was positive. The voting was skewed by people (I won't name names :) who voted No on all of the Joust runs at the same time without considering the strengths and weaknesses of the various runs (and I'll be the first to admit that there were weaknesses in some of my other runs).
I hereby request that this run be re-judged on its own merits based on the evidence I've provided.
I'm offended that you think this run wasn't judged on its own merits. Copy and pastes aside to save verdict text effort, I looked at each run on its own, and I did for a time consider accepting this.
dwangoAC wrote:
This specific port does complete all new game content, as evidenced by the overly-long encode showing wave 10. The red-lanced enemies appear in wave 1 and the grey-lanced enemies appear in wave 4. The Pterodactyl appears in wave 8. The encode continuing to wave 10 shows that a failure to pick up an egg produces a grey-lanced enemy. Further, wave 7 demonstrates that the color of the bird makes no difference anyway as faster spawn speeds present by the time that level arrives allow for repeatedly jumping on the head of an enemy the frame it can move, meaning even if it could fly faster it is still eliminated shortly after the invulnerability wears off.
In other words, for this port, all content is encountered in one form or another in the first 9 waves.
What you summed up here shows you utterly missed the point in my rejection message: "Games that loop endlessly can still be defined. The completion point is one where there is no new content, and the game is no longer increasing in difficulty."
You focused on the former requirement, not the latter.
If a regular player finds later levels harder for any reasons, you have to play them, it doesn't matter if they reuse content at that point or not.
dwangoAC wrote:
My intended tier for this run is Moons (because a run with entertainment vs. speed trade-offs is generally not eligible for the Vault).
What you intend as the tier is irrelevant.
dwangoAC wrote:
If the specific rejection reason remains "go do some more levels", please provide specific exit criteria appropriate for this port of the game for future TAS'ers to aspire to. Thank you for your reconsideration!
Find the point where the game stops increasing in difficulty, and has a level loop, and stop there. As I said to you on IRC, I recall the game needing a good 30 waves more before it loops.
If I was mistaken about increasing difficulty, and I'm getting different ports of the game mixed up (there are multiple DOS ports, and I've played ports for several systems), please enlighten me, and I'll review, and happily accept if I'm wrong.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
The hardest wave is when all enemies are shadow lords. After that it's not "more difficult" anymore. Because if we consider seeing the first shadow lord a final point, I can spawn one in the very first wave (just by not picking the eggs), which makes no sense.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
I'm offended that you think this run wasn't judged on its own merits. Copy and pastes aside to save verdict text effort, I looked at each run on its own, and I did for a time consider accepting this.
~snip~
Find the point where the game stops increasing in difficulty, and has a level loop, and stop there. As I said to you on IRC, I recall the game needing a good 30 waves more before it loops.
If I was mistaken about increasing difficulty, and I'm getting different ports of the game mixed up (there are multiple DOS ports, and I've played ports for several systems), please enlighten me, and I'll review, and happily accept if I'm wrong.
I confess that I was a bit rushed when I submitted this run as a knee-jerk response to Feos's NES Joust run (fed by my somewhat childish desire to have *all* the Joust ports represented at the same time). I had finished this TAS so many months before submitting it that even my own memory of which ports were different had started to blend together. The level of effort I went to to verify that this run was as complete as possible was less than adequate, fueled in part by my emotional state after all of the runs were rejected with the same message. If there really is meaningful content after the point I stopped in this DOS Joust port and it's the only way to satisfy the rules (entertainment / length considerations notwithstanding), then so be it.
I will endeavor to put more effort into researching the completeness of my category and goal choices, as this appears to be a personal failing on my part that I should address based on my recent submissions that have been rejected. Nach, I apologize for my reaction and any personal attack you perceived, which was not my intent. I expect my behavior as a representative of TASVideos to be above reproach, and that was not the case here, for which I am sorry.
As far as my involvement with any additional effort on this run, that will have to wait as I am fully invested in getting AGDQ 2015 prep completed right now but if someone else wants to pick this run up they are more than welcome to do so. Thanks to everyone for the interest, and here's hoping a good run of this game can be accepted at some point.
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dwangoAC wrote:
fueled in part by my emotional state after all of the runs were rejected with the same message.
Almost the same message. Each one did have a unique sentence or two pertaining to the run in question, what was good/bad about it aside from the collective failing of being too short.
I understand the emotional crush, when I reject runs from people who really want to make them, it's not my intent to make you feel bad (which unfortunately is almost always a guaranteed outcome). To be honest, I personally liked you runs, but we have completion rules and levels of quality that we're trying to maintain.
While having a run on every platform is certainly a cool idea, especially when there's significant differences in each of them (which AFAIK, is generally not the case here), it may be more self fulfilling to make one solid run with a particularly good port. Two players doing antics and clearing the waves quickly and in interesting surprising ways can be very fun to watch, even if the run goes on for a good 10 minutes.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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You know DwangoAC, I still think you could pull off the Joust ports if you would feature a new one every month, or so. Looking back, I believe submitting them all at once prevented them from "standing out" on their individual merits.
Maybe one port could be an "any%", while another could be a "playaround", etc. That way, each port would offer something new to the table.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
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ars4326 wrote:
You know DwangoAC, I still think you could pull off the Joust ports if you would feature a new one every month, or so. Looking back, I believe submitting them all at once prevented them from "standing out" on their individual merits.
Maybe one port could be an "any%", while another could be a "playaround", etc. That way, each port would offer something new to the table.
That was actually something I was angling for, making one of them 1 player, one of them 2 player, one of them to highest score, one of them to first egg wave, etc., but the goal choices were not well received and the consensus was that it should be 2 player wherever possible.
Out of all of the ports, jpc-rr is the hardest emulator to use but the DOS version produces the most entertaining result so after I complete AGDQ 2015 I might consider taking this on again; in the meantime I'd welcome someone else doing it, though!
A.C.
******
this version of joust is actually emulated from the arcade. only the rom is patched to skip the startup test, and samples are used to handle the sound effects.
This fast flapping speed should be just as possible in MAME.
I recommend the following categories as suggestions.
1)fastest difficulty plateau. this reaches the level at which the game's difficulty does not increase after and beats it.
2) fastest loop. this beats wave 90 and goes back to 1.
3) fastest max score. this puts up a score of all nines. possibly by abusing pterodactyls, which should be easily killable repeatedly under TAS conditions.
4) glitchfest. try to do as much wacky stuff as possible
