Submission Text Full Submission Page
Palamedes is a unique puzzle game like no other. You match up the dice and try to come up with the best combinations. (Poker anyone?)
You clear rows of blocks by making the best hands:
handdescriptionlines cleared
1 pair2 of the same number in a row1 line
2 pairs2 pairs of numbers2 lines
3 pairs3 pairs of numbers (trifecta)3 lines
3 of a kind3 of the same number in a row1 line
4 of a kind4 of the same number in a row2 lines
5 of a kind5 of the same number in a row3 lines
6 of a kind6 of the same number (flush)4 lines
3 number straight3 consecutive numbers in a row1 line
4 number straight4 consecutive numbers in a row2 lines
5 number straight5 consecutive numbers in a row3 lines
# of a kind straightcombination of the two3 lines
black jackhand with numbers totaling 211 bonus line
straight flush6 consecutive numbers5 lines
Differences on start-up: The screen with the HOT-B logo can be skipped in the Japanese version which discounts the extra frames in the US version.
I do the Tournament mode and be strategic as much as possible. The first opponent was a pushover, but it gets harder along the way.
There might be room for possible small improvements.

Samsara: Judging.

PikachuMan: Updated nickname.

Samsara: Alright, bear with me here. Researching the game and weighing the pros and cons of the run has occupied the better part of my waking hours for the past two days, and I've come to the conclusion that this run just isn't publishable. But moreso than that, the game itself isn't publishable either as far as I'm concerned.
The issues with the run are simply that it doesn't seem like there was any testing done to get different/possibly better board layouts. Obviously, we can't expect every single possibility to be tested unless you have the patience of a lesser saint, but we expect at least some testing, rather than doing everything you get as fast as possible. A TAS isn't supposed to merely react to something with superhuman precision, it's supposed to change the world to its liking. It's clear that even single frame delays (whether at the title screen or delaying finishing off the enemy) can influence the board pattern of the next stage, so there should have been more effort put into finding better patterns.
But that's just general TASing advice, the main issue I have is with the game itself.
The board pattern does not change at all once it's set: Using the same "seed" as this submission, I matched the first stage in realtime. This ultimately means that TAS precision makes almost no difference over the majority of the game, with the only possible changes being luck manipulation, and even then I've only seen 1 or 2 dice change per line, so it's not even enough manipulation to count. The reason why it's so easy to match the run in RTA is because, frankly, well over half of the run is spent waiting for lines to come down. Without lines of your own, you can't send lines to the opponent, and you can't control the speed that the lines slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly come down. This, in my opinion, makes the game too trivial to be published. It's not as simple as, say, literally pressing nothing but right for 5 minutes and beating the game, but it's simple enough that a day after playing the game for the first time, I can match a TAS almost frame-for-frame even without the perfect reflexes or timing. Sure, I would get a different level layout for the next round, but I and anyone else would be able to easily get within frames of a TAS of that level as well.
Of course, I could be wrong about the game, and it could be publishable, but even then I would still be leaning toward rejection due to the lack of testing. While what's here is "optimized" as much as the game will allow, it doesn't exactly scream mastery of the game to just take the first result you get in every case and go on from there.
Rejecting.

TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #5104: PikachuMan's NES Palamedes "Tournament" in 06:26.56
Samsara
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Link to video Welp.
    * Is luck manipulation possible? Is there any way to manipulate what lines you get or how fast they come? * How much strategy went into this run if luck manipulation is possible? Did you test every possible set of lines or did you just go with the first working solution? * Could you please stick to one username for your submissions?
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
You can't manipulate how fast lines come. When you turn in your tray, it erases lines from your end. If there are more lines to erase than you have, the extra ones overflow to the opponent's side. Given that almost all of his matches are high score full straights, I'd assume that the long waits before cashing the tray is for luck manipulation. He should really confirm that though.
Samsara
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Joined: 11/13/2006
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Tangent wrote:
You can't manipulate how fast lines come. When you turn in your tray, it erases lines from your end. If there are more lines to erase than you have, the extra ones overflow to the opponent's side.
Slightly inaccurate: You need to erase lines on your side to send them over to your opponent, so it seems like all of the waiting is just to get a good enough number of lines to appear to shove everything back over to the other side. I did manage to get lines to appear earlier by turning in my tray at a certain time, but that's both counterintuitive since you have to turn in the tray, and I think it only applies to a single line anyway, with the next one coming in at the same time regardless. I asked about luck manipulation because I tested the game a little bit to understand the mechanics and ended up getting slightly different lines than in this run, as in everything but 1 or 2 dice is the same. There's also the matter of delaying the start of the game or the end of a match to potentially get a better board configuration in the next one, which I don't think was tested at all. EDIT: Turns out there's a one frame delay at the start menu, for some reason this actually adds a lag frame during the first match and I guess both things combined lead to a slightly different board layout, emphasis being "slightly": A couple dice are changed and the strategy used in the submission doesn't work when doing everything as fast as possible. I don't honestly think this is intentional manipulation, however, just getting lucky with that frame delay. The lag frame can also be removed easily by just delaying the first shot. The problem with these kinds of submissions is that there are a thousand different possibilities, and it's difficult to tell if it's optimized or not without testing a good number of these possibilities. Are these the best possible board configurations? Is this the fastest strategy for every match? What if a slower strategy in one match leads to a much faster strategy in another? That's not to say that everything HAS to be tested to get this to be published, it just means I'm much more hesitant about accepting it. I'd like to do some more testing, or at the very least see some more testing done by the author, before I'm comfortable judging this.
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
TASVideosGrue
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om, nom, nom... crunchy!
MarbleousDave
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I'll try to improve, but I have TASed the sequel which has different mechanics. The first game you can't speed up the lines, but you can in the second. There's also the arcade version. The Game Boy was the only version to be released in Europe. The Tournament mode on the Game Boy version uses a narrow board to fit on the Game Boy's small screen, You can see 9/10 of your opponent's board, but 2 player mode you can't see your opponent's board due to the use of a game link cable. 1 player mode the line counter indicates how many lines remaining while 2 player mode it indicates how many lines your opponent has on his/her board. What the difference between NEShawk and QuickNES? The Game Boy version has different strategy. It's impossible to clear more than 3 lines at once on Tournament mode. We could hack it to use 6x8 boards as opposed to 5x7 boards, but to do that is to run Goomba on the Game Boy Advance. But why do we need to do that when we have the NES/Famicom version?
MarbleousDave
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The Game Boy version is surprisingly faster than the NES version. Link to video