Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
In the last glitchfest from R&Z, there is shown a very weird glitch: in MGZ, if you are standing on the blue «disk» under the descending ceiling, the game randomly crashes, sometimes even throwing you into… competition mode. I wonder if it’s a memory corruption glitch, which can be abused for speedrunning? marzojr, maybe you have any idea what’s happening?
Link to video
Watch it from 5:50, if you are not familiar with the language
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Sega Atlas is awesome.
Makes me wish it was a standard feature in Sonic games, that you could have a second camera option like that. It is great for ring attack TASes.
Thank you for making this.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
TheYogWog wrote:
Thank you for making this.
You are welcome. Don’t forget to thank me for a little promotion boost for your original video as well :)
TheYogWog wrote:
Makes me wish it was a standard feature in Sonic games, that you could have a second camera option like that. It is great for ring attack TASes.
It could be possible, at least in theory. The question goes to Lua experts: is it possible to draw GUI windows from within Lua scripts running inside Gens?
(upd) I’ve just realized that I could render the zoomed-out picture over the Gens canvas using gui.gdoverlay. But it would look ugly because of limited palette and small canvas size. So, displaying the map and your position in a separate window would still be better. However, displaying a zoomed-out image in the Gens canvas is already on my TODO list, since it would be handy and easy to use (you can assign hotkey for zooming out).
P.S.: being really interested in your ring attack project, I am going to make Sega Atlas encodes for the most of your further WIP previews (if you make the gmvs available, of course).
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
You are welcome. Don’t forget to thank me for a little promotion boost for your original video as well :)
Yes, I see that. Wonderful, thank you for that as well.
WST wrote:
However, displaying a zoomed-out image in the Gens canvas is already on my TODO list, since it would be handy and easy to use (you can assign hotkey for zooming out).
That would be incredible. And as long as I'm engaging in wishful thinking, I should add how great it would be if it were possible to see everything on the map at once instead of just whatever's on screen.
I appreciate your interest in my videos, WST, and likewise I find Sonic Atlas videos very interesting. Check your inbox for my lattest .gmv, which includes up to MGZ1. I'm also putting my own encodes on my YT channel right now (sorry for the shitty picture quality, don't really know that much how to fix that). I'm not sure if I'll always release it every time I finish a level, but in this case I think it would be a good idea as I'm hoping you might be able to spot any lingering issues with my playing that still need to be worked out (I feel I've gotten the hang of loop jumping now)
Currently, I'm about to begin testing on MGZ1 which is sure to be an endeavor. It's perhaps the most complex map in the game, and was one of the first levels I did when I started TASing and I remember having to restart from scratch 5 different times on this act because of the path swapper. I'm not sure but I'm hoping that won't be as much of an issue this time as in this run allows the use of glitches, whereas my previous attempts did not. Anyway, I'm mainly mentioning this because of one question in particular that I know I have right now, and that has to do with the annoying drilling machines that appear periodically throughout Act 1.
What do they affect, exactly, if anything? I mean, is there any reason I should wait for them to finish drilling? I know it's possible to bypass them sometimes by going fast, but like I said I don't know if that would affect pathswappers or something that would end up causing trouble later on. Also it seems if you don't get by them fast enough and don't wait for them to finish drilling, the drilling sound won't go away for the rest of the level. If for some reason I had to find myself in that situation, would it be acceptable to sacrifice a time-loss in order to prevent the drilling sound from negatively impacting the viewing experience? Apologies for being longwinded.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
As I remember from TASing Amy@S3K, the only problem coming from leaving the ground shaking, is that it makes it impossible to defeat the glitched boss (act 2 boss in act 1). But since you are going to beat the normal boss, I guess, it will not be much of a problem, however, I did not check it — only making a guess.
P.S.: saw your movie… What I can say — I’m impressed, you seem to be much more creative on the route planning than the authors of all ring attack runs I’ve ever seen before (Qwerty, feeuzz, LTRP, Felipe). Not to offend them, but it’s true. I have no idea if it’s just your talent, or result of insane efforts, but it doesn’t matter — anyway it’s impressive and fun to watch. And your moves to the music make it truely a masterpiece.
P.P.S.: Sega Atlas encodes coming soon. As soon as I have time (the script processing a huge map, works really slow).
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Just made a TAS which is unique (sort of). I made a GMV file that syncs both Sonic 2 and Sonic 3. Although this is short and the TAS itself is mediocre, I thought it was pretty cool.
..my lattest .gmv, which includes up to MGZ1. I'm also putting my own encodes on my YT channel right now (sorry for the shitty picture quality, don't really know that much how to fix that). I'm not sure if I'll always release it every time I finish a level, but in this case I think it would be a good idea as I'm hoping you might be able to spot any lingering issues with my playing that still need to be worked out (I feel I've gotten the hang of loop jumping now)
Your run is going from a goal choice I wanted to see, to something fantastic on its own merits.
http://www.youtube.com/user/theyogwog
I'll link it if you won't.
Good luck on Marble Garden!
There's a video I saw many years ago, but sadly can't find now, of somebody doing all 4 sonics with the same input, IE 1+2+3+S&K. They only did 1 level, but naturally it's tougher than just those 2; since about 80% of the time you only really needed to control just one Sonic.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
I do think that I know a very major (saving seconds) shortcut in Sandopolis 2, which is not used in any of the runs I know (including the currently published Tails TAS), but I can’t reproduce it (tried with Knuckles a lot). I succeeded to make it only once, and only with Amy, but something makes me think that it’s possible not only for her…
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
That ground entrance; nice work, as far as I know, you are the first one to find out Knuckles can go through regular floors by gliding at the right frame. In some quick tests, it seems that the ground must not be very thick (except if you gather some very high vertical speed),
TheYogWog wrote:
Thanks, marzojr. Yes, you're correct that it only works with unusually thin floors for a regular jump.
I just want to add that while what I said is technically correct that Knuckles can't glide through thicker floors without a lot of y-speed, while zipping it seems there's a way for him to go beneath those floors easily using only a regular jump. I tested it and Sonic can do it too, but not Tails. Is this already known to you guys? It probably is, but I just found out about it this morning and I'm glad because it's the solution I've been looking for to getting those 3 rings that are stuck in the wall in Sandopolis 1. It might have speedrunning applications too.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
Yes, it is known… Both objects and terrain can be skipped if your Y-position simply does not appear inside them. So it’s only question of proper alignment and speed :)
It also works horizontally, which, I guess, you already know.
(upd) sorry, understood it in a wrong way.
Yes, glitching through walls to a lower level while being already inside a wall, is also known, it’s even used in real-time speedrunning (a good example is Flying Battery 1 level-wrap). In tool-assisted speedrunning, I often used it with Amy. It’s useful for her at least in 3 places: Hydrocity 1, Flying Battery 1 and Launch Base 1
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
So I've reached a point on the MGZ1 boss where I think I could save a few frames (but not necessarily reduce the final in-game clock by any amount...) by sacrificing my shield, and then using the signpost to spawn another one while the in-game clock is stopped. This would result in a longer real time, whereas without doing this I could have a shorter real time but (maybe) a 1 second longer in-game time.
To be honest, up to this point I haven't really known whether I'm going for in-game or real time... I know initially I said in-game, but honestly I just picked one at random not knowing the difference, particularly as far as TASvideos is concerned regarding publication guidelines. I seem to recall reading somewhere they only accept realtime, and also that in-game clock-stopping glitches are sometimes not allowed.
Anyway, I don't think it's mattered until now because afaik there wasn't any situation where I could improve either at the expense of the other. I didn't expect for it to really be an issue (thus I resolved not to worry about it for the time being, though maybe I should have) until Launch Base Zone, where I know it's possible to stop the in-game clock early during Act 2. Although, I'm not sure if this would be practical in a speedrunning scenario but I won't go into the details to keep this post short. But again, I think it ultimately comes down to timing and how that's handled for the run.
tl;dr Real time vs in game which should I use for my run and why, please? Thank you.
Go for in game time.
1) It's used for every RTA and TAS run thus far
2) If you go for real time, any time you finish a level in under 30 seconds you are obliged to wait until you have 30 seconds in game time before hitting the signpost to minimize the time to count down the bonus. Which is dumb. Which is why sonic goes for game time :)
I would also think that when you go for in game time clock stopping glitches are disallowed.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
Most Sonic TASes go for in-game time, with an exception for abusing the checkpost trick. I don’t know the reasons behind such a tradition, but it seems started here (see small text).
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
About the "TASvideos only accepts realtime" thing: TASvideos' automatic timing software always uses realtime, but if you say that you're going for in-game time, the judges will just ignore the time given by the timing software and use the in-game time instead. You should feel free to use whichever suits the game.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
Saw this on youtube before you posted it here.
Lorenzo also did a spindashless WIP, but with Sonic.
It’s a pity that some acts cannot be beaten this way.
Link to video
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
TheYogWog asked me what is the possible shortcut in Sandopolis 2, which I randomly discovered a while ago. So, this is my reply.
When going through this level, you come to this place… Usually you jump from this slope to pass under the door above; but when I TAS this place with Amy, I usually abuse corner glitch / stair clip. However, it seems to be possible to glitch through that slope by running into it after spindashing from the switch. My very first Sandopolis 2 TAS shows this way (watch with attention to not miss!). The obvious problem with it is that you need to glitch through the floor to the lower level after that, but for Amy it isn’t a problem — she can go to the lower level a bit later. But I beleive that this issue can be resolved; resulting in a significant time saver.
P.S.: be sure to enjoy this after watching my old SZ2 run, it will give you a better feeling.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
About the "TASvideos only accepts realtime" thing: TASvideos' automatic timing software always uses realtime, but if you say that you're going for in-game time, the judges will just ignore the time given by the timing software and use the in-game time instead. You should feel free to use whichever suits the game.
Ok.
Really sorry, but just one more question about in-game timing: I understand that in-game timing differs from real time in that it's essentially "paused" at certain times throughout the game. For example, during the score screen in Sonic. But at what point does the timing stop: on the frame when the official in-game clock stops, or on the first frame that the player loses control of the character? Conversely I would ask, when does the timing re-start: on the frame when the game clock resumes, or on the frame when you can continue entering input for the character?
I ask because I think I can take some fractions of a second off the clock in Act 2 by hitting the signpost an extra time while the clock is stopped at the end of Act 1. It's only worth it if the timing stops when the clock stops, though; otherwise, hitting the signpost twice delays the score screen enough that it ends up taking longer that way.
Thanks again to everyone for answering so many questions I have.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
What are the best known times for Knuckles in the first zones of S3&K? Are Qwerty’s old times (and marzojr’s Ice Cap) the current WR?
Need some reference in order to start working on a full S3&K TAS as Knuckles.
I wonder if someone has a WIP of this game as Knuckles…
(upd) as Qwerty explained me, his Angel Island 1 should be already very optimized, other levels can be improved. I wouldn’t like to rely on upthorn’s run, because it’s 100% and also because it doesn’t match today’s Sonic TASing standards (it’s one of the reasons why I gave it low rating on technical side. However, upthorn mentioned that he made his TAS primarily to stimulate interest in that game).
I removed my mark from my own TAS after seeing the rule saying that the TAS author should not rate his own movies.
I am not sure if the full S3&K run as Knuckles is going to be my next project, at least because I have a few other WIPs which are much closer to finish, but I am happy that Qwerty and feeuzz already suggested me their help about this project.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
When going through this level, you come to this place… Usually you jump from this slope to pass under the door above; but when I TAS this place with Amy, I usually abuse corner glitch / stair clip. However, it seems to be possible to glitch through that slope by running into it after spindashing from the switch. My very first Sandopolis 2 TAS shows this way (watch with attention to not miss!). The obvious problem with it is that you need to glitch through the floor to the lower level after that, but for Amy it isn’t a problem — she can go to the lower level a bit later. But I beleive that this issue can be resolved; resulting in a significant time saver.
P.S.: be sure to enjoy this after watching my old SZ2 run, it will give you a better feeling.
