ThunderAxe31: While this movie is relatively easy to match with real-time play attempts, it's thanks to a technique that was discovered. Before that, beating this game optimally in a TAS wasn't trivial, as documented by the existence of the currently published movie. For this reason, the game itself is not considered trivial, according to a recently introduced rule, and thus this movie is acceptable.
This submission isn't entertaining and the current fastest completion movie is in Vault. Thus, accepting this submission for Vault and obsoleting the currently published movie.
Every time a run of this game gets submitted, I first think of that other gameboy game. And then I'm disappointed it's not that game.
Nice glitch though.
I tried optimizing inputs a bit. Turns out there is no need to press Right button at all, and the Up button pressure don't need any specific timing. Which leaves only the three Start inputs to need precise timing:
As a consequence, replicating this run in real time attempts would be very trivial. And this is a problem due to this Vault rule:
Vault wrote:
Must be distinguishable from the best real-time speedruns, and must not be seen as trivial.
For what it's worth, I confirmed sync on BizHawk 2.4.
Strangly enough this game does not work on the dev build at all (I tested that version because it has updated version of Gambette, the game just refuses to load after the bios)
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
For what it's worth, I confirmed sync on BizHawk 2.4.
Strangly enough this game does not work on the dev build at all (I tested that version because it has updated version of Gambette, the game just refuses to load after the bios)
This game isn't working on Gambatte in the dev build? Does it work in GBC mode, or in GBHawk?
For what it's worth, I confirmed sync on BizHawk 2.4.
Strangly enough this game does not work on the dev build at all (I tested that version because it has updated version of Gambette, the game just refuses to load after the bios)
This game isn't working on Gambatte in the dev build? Does it work in GBC mode, or in GBHawk?
for Gambette it wont work at all, both in GB and GBC mode (and GBC in GBA).
however in GBHawk it works just fine, both in GB and GBC modes.
Edit, in 2.4 it works just fine with both cores.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Note that this is an unreleased game, so there is a chance that it could be actually supposed to not work on real hardware. I would test it myself if I had a refleshable cartridge, but I'm not sure where to buy one.
For context in this thread: the Zool submission has brought up questions about accepting 'trivial' runs that beat existing movies: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=492783#492783
I'm really not sure about a 3-input glitched run obsoleting a full-game run here. In Zool's case it was a glitch execution being improved to the point that it's short enough to grind for in real-time. The published 3 minute version basically no longer exists, it's not a record of any kind.
But a full-game run of this does still exist. It seems like there should be a middle ground between "accept a glitch improvement if it retroactively becomes trivial" and "accept new 'trivial' glitches".
And from the sound of the description, this TAS is a recreation of an RTA run, as opposed to the RTA runs duplicating the TAS like Dragster/Zool (which should not necessarily be penalized).
As a consequence, replicating this run in real time attempts would be very trivial. And this is a problem due to this Vault rule:
Vault wrote:
Must be distinguishable from the best real-time speedruns, and must not be seen as trivial.
Two years ago, the author of this submission decided to cancel right after that I mentioned an issue with this rule. However, one year ago, all tier-specific rules were moved to the Movie Rules page, so anything left in the Vault page doesn't count as a rule anymore, but just as an informative overview of that tier.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Haha, 1st time viewee here. The RTA looks great. Now what about this TAS? Is it completed in the same time? (Duration)
No, this TAS if faster than any known RTA, even today. Sorry for the late reply.
Blazephlozard wrote:
And from the sound of the description, this TAS is a recreation of an RTA run, as opposed to the RTA runs duplicating the TAS like Dragster/Zool (which should not necessarily be penalized).
It's true that this submission is using a technique discovered and used in RTA play, but it doesn't really matter, since it's doing it faster. A lot of RTA players today are using TASing tools or disassembling in order to investigate games behaviors and develop their speedrunning techniques, so I don't see issues in that sense here.
If your tool-assisted movie is not faster than the non-tool-assisted world record for the same game, aiming for the same goals, your movie will be rejected.
The phrase "not faster" should be changed to "slower." Theoretically every TAS can be equaled by a human who has enough talent and dedication. It is rare that a human actually equals a TAS, but it shouldn't be held against the TAS if it happens. Whether a human can do it in reality or only in theory is the focus of sites like speedrun.com, not this site. But if a TAS is slower than a speedrun then there's a proven flaw and it warrants rejection. Whereas equaling a TAS does not prove that the TAS has a flaw.
I don't see any problem so long as the TAS is faster than the RTA (taking into account timing differences of course).
As for the vault rules, I don't necessarily agree that it should be completely distinguishable from RTA for the category. In my mind I've always viewed vault as just a record keeping of games from the TAS perspective. Moon/Star tiers obviously are the exception and I think the rule should only apply to them. Obviously I didn't make the vault rules, but that's just my take on that particular rule.
Whether a human can do it in reality or only in theory is the focus of sites like speedrun.com, not this site. But if a TAS is slower than a speedrun then there's a proven flaw and it warrants rejection. Whereas equaling a TAS does not prove that the TAS has a flaw.
Good point. We want TASes to be reasonably optimized, but not to be "theoretically unbeatable by humans", because it would be something that can't be proven.
Exonym wrote:
As for the vault rules, I don't necessarily agree that it should be completely distinguishable from RTA for the category. In my mind I've always viewed vault as just a record keeping of games from the TAS perspective. Moon/Star tiers obviously are the exception and I think the rule should only apply to them. Obviously I didn't make the vault rules, but that's just my take on that particular rule.
I agree. Being "distinguishable from RTA" sounds more like something about the appearance of a movie, and not necessarily to its optimization level, so I also think that it's something that should be required for entertaining (Moon/Stars) and not for technical value alone (Vault). In fact, what makes a TAS entertaining is how much superhuman it visually appears, while on the other hand most Vault movies often tend to appear less superhuman when watched. Though there are exceptions, of course.
Whether a human can do it in reality or only in theory is the focus of sites like speedrun.com, not this site. But if a TAS is slower than a speedrun then there's a proven flaw and it warrants rejection. Whereas equaling a TAS does not prove that the TAS has a flaw.
Good point. We want TASes to be reasonably optimized, but not to be "theoretically unbeatable by humans", because it would be something that can't be proven.
we have the technology to prove that, what we lack is just the correct knowledge.
but i globally agree with arc : we should focus on "fastest until proven otherwise" and "judging floor is the fastest know time"
so if we publish something suboptimal it's up to US to improve it, it creates "good competition" and allow newcomers to have "easier targets" to get introduced to TASing.
vaulting this run is the correct choice for me.
I thought I had provided a movie file that included the GB bios for this, I guess the core regression distracted me from actually posting it. That was my fault.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
No, it's my fault. I completely ignored the fact that the submitted movied didn't feature the GB BIOS.
And since I doubt anyone will ever beat this, we'll have a GB publication forever without BIOS. Great job, me.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Actually wait a minute, this movie WAS supposed to use the BIOS. the file I have for Bizhawk 2.4 plays just fine with the BIOS with no changes at all. and I just noticed the publication encode has the title screen hanging for longer than it should be.
so this is actually what the movie should look like:
Link to video
No inputs were changed at all, this is the same amount of movie time, only difference is it includes BIOS.
So basically, the submission file ACCOUNTS for BIOS time, but the encode never played it. It instead just stayed on the title screen for longer than it should be.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
As a consequence, replicating this run in real time attempts would be very trivial. And this is a problem due to this Vault rule:
