Post subject: Electronics
WST
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Well, first of all, I am sorry about creating a new topic, but I was unable to find any other place where I could post this, even if I allowed myself some necroposting… As some of you probably already know, one of my hobbies other than tool-assisted speedrunning is making hand-made electronic devices. So, this topic is going to be dedicated to such kind of hobby. I am not actually very skilled at it, but I have some basic knowledge about soldering, making PCBs, and so on. I built a lot of simple analog circuits, like luminiscent lamp driver (for powering it from a battery), a lot of audio amplifiers (transistor and IC powered), and some other stuff. Ages ago (like in 1970s, for example) learning about electronic DIY usually started with building a crystal radio. It is very simple, but it’s just perfect to give imagination about many complex things such as amplitude modulation, diodes and capacitors, and lots other things… But, obviously, nowadays it doesn’t make any sense in absolutely most places on Earth. So, what circuit to chose for building it first? I’d suggest a very basic circuit with a LED, battery, a button and a resistor. It’s a lot simplier than even such simple thing as crystal radio, but it’s still enough to get imagination about: — electricity basics (polarity, for example) — soldering (if used) — Ohm’s law, the most basic law in electronics Experimenting with such a basic circuit could include varying the resistor’s resistance, measuring the voltages on the battery and on the LED, measuring the current. Why am I talking about it? Because I got friends who want to learn about electronics, and they have to start from scratch. My problem is that I have absolutely no idea what to recommend them — I am way too busy to teach them myself, and I do not know any good (proved to be good by time) information sources which could help beginners to learn the basics of electronics step by step. I’d be glad if you could suggest such a source (preferrably online). And, of course, you are welcome to join the discussion.
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I have a four year degree in Electronics Engineering Technology. It is good stuff, eh? I will look around and see if I can find any good resources for you.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
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This is a fantastic applet from one of my all-time favorite websites: http://falstad.com/circuit/ Of course, there are some pros and cons to me recommending an applet. One can't really learn about all the intricacies of circuit-building from an applet that offers only a limited set of features. Chiefly, someone who learns too much about circuits from a computer program is likely to think that electrical engineering is a largely academic exercise, failing to see the practical side of things. They may also become too reliant on circuit elements in their idealized forms, failing to appreciate how circuits grow in complexity as (for example) nonlinear phenomena emerge. However, I think there are some major benefits, especially if learning is supplemented by actual circuit-building. (Or rather, I should say, if circuit-building is supplemented by the applet.) The applet is (relatively) easy to set up and see results, it's free, it's reliable (we all know how frustrating it can be when even the simplest circuits fail to operate as we expect), it has a strong base of circuit elements to choose from, and the output is largely visual without the need to set up an oscilloscope.
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Sounds like the applet would be helpful for prototyping, and then you'd try to build the actual thing once you got something working in the applet. At least, for the simpler circuits. When I was in college I took one digital engineering course that had an awful (seriously, the UI was a trainwreck) computer-aided design program for setting up circuits that served a similar purpose.
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To me electronics is like, I'm sure, programming is for non-programmers: Even though I have an extremely cursory understanding of the very basics (I have a masters degree from a university of technology after all) I just can't get my head around it, and even trying the simplest of designs would be a completely insurmountable task for me. Yet to people who are fluent at electronics design coming up with with the design of a simple circuit that performs a simple task is as easy as for me to write a small program that performs a simple task. And I really mean simple tasks. For example, how large of a resistor do I need not to burn out a LED? I have no idea. (I know you need a resistor, but for the life of me I cannot remember how to even begin to calculate it.) And let's not even start with things like transistor threshold voltages and how to use them to achieve things (or what kind of transistor is most suitable for whichever task), or anything complicated like that.
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Warp wrote:
And I really mean simple tasks. For example, how large of a resistor do I need not to burn out a LED? I have no idea.
Ohm's law. But seriously, this is a site for TAS and very little electronics happens here. There are a LOT of wonderful resources on the internet for what you seek. I can send you a huge list of beginners electronics resources if you desire. Why post this thread here?
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WST
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Well, I posted it in «Off topic», and since some of our members build devices for hardware TAS verification, is really having such a thread worse than having discussions about My Little Pony, Mars One, math and physics, programmimg? Also I have no mood to join other communities… I have to thank you all for your replies, but I don’t think the shown applet is suitable for my purpose — it’s good for those who already have some experience. My goal is to help my friends start from scratch, and I beleive, there should be available «classical» books, I even know a few ones, but they all are written by Russian authors, and I doubt they are translated into English language. Also Russia has it’s own system of naming electronic components. You know, up to early 1990s it was an extremely closed country, and even electronic components were not imported. Instead, a lot of local components were manufactured. For example, Russian replacement for NE555 would be КР1006ВИ1 (available in SMD format as КФ1006ВИ1), replacement of 78L05 would be, for example, КР1181ЕН5 (and there are a plenty of other replacements). Some of them are absolutely the same — hardware clones, in other words. Others just do the same function and have the same pinout, but the inner side differs a lot. That’s another reason why I don’t think why Russian books are suitable for newbie in electronics from USA or Japan, for example. In case you are wondering — even nowadays the Russian electronic components are still manufactured, despite the fact that it’s economically inefficient and the technology significally degradated during heavy economic crisis in 1990s
Derakon wrote:
When I was in college I took one digital engineering course that had an awful (seriously, the UI was a trainwreck) computer-aided design program for setting up circuits that served a similar purpose.
Out of curiousity, was it MicroCap?
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WST wrote:
Derakon wrote:
When I was in college I took one digital engineering course that had an awful (seriously, the UI was a trainwreck) computer-aided design program for setting up circuits that served a similar purpose.
Out of curiousity, was it MicroCap?
Sorry, I honestly don't remember what it was called.
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Fair enough. (And I am one of those members building such a device.) I just don't see what you intend to gain here. Check out these absolute beginner materials (among many on the internets): http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/ http://electronicsclub.info/index.htm
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True wrote:
Why post this thread here?
I didn't know there was a limitation on what should be posted here and what shouldn't.
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Warp wrote:
True wrote:
Why post this thread here?
I didn't know there was a limitation on what should be posted here and what shouldn't.
I've already replied "fair enough." He can post whatever he wants. But since you won't drop it, I'll elaborate. If he wants good information about electronics, this isn't the place for it. It's like going to a bakery to get the best advice on how to do car repair. That was my point.
true on twitch - lsnes windows builds 20230425 - the date this site is buried
WST
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True, your links are brilliant, this is exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much! So, isn’t it the case when the bakery shop is full of car mechanics? :) (upd) I’ve just realized that electronic devices are made with tool assistance, so it’s actually not that much of off topic… :)
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WST
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So, I’ve successfully built my first SMD device. I used a very simple circuit: It works just like a charm, but at first I could not make it working. I checked the plate many times, even replaced the NE555 IC, which I supposed to be broken — no result. The LED was constantly luminous without blinking. Suddenly, when looking for possible short circuit, I’ve realized that today I used a newly bought soldering flux… My guess was right: the source of the problem was the conductive flux. After washing it out and starting the device again, it worked. Here is a generated picture of the PCB (view from SMD component side). I used a DIP LED (I don’t have SMD ones, yet) and two CR2025 batteries. Resistors and capacitors are 1206-sized. Cannot provide a photo for now, because I broke my mobile phone. But I will post a photo (or video) next few days. I will also show some [a little more complex] DIP devices I’ve built.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
WST
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Op amp based triangle oscillator: Link to video Built it on a breadbord, because I was trying to investigate into an issue with the production device using this circuit as it’s part. Showing it just for your interest. :)
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
WST
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Okay, as I promised — video (and photo) of my first SMD device. Also my apologies for the fourth post in a row :) Link to video
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True wrote:
But seriously, this is a site for TAS and very little electronics happens here. There are a LOT of wonderful resources on the internet for what you seek. I can send you a huge list of beginners electronics resources if you desire. Why post this thread here?
You seem to never have seen this thread. Electronics thread has way more to do with TASing that than one :) EDIT: I'm late to the party, so nevermind.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Good stuff, WST! I hope you are having fun!
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
WST
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Sticky wrote:
Good stuff, WST! I hope you are having fun!
It’s actually just a hobby, helping to spend time and relax from boring work. It plays exactly the same role in my life as TASing :) Btw, this is yet another analog device I’ve built. It’s also probably not suitable for any serious application and built just for fun. It’s a buzzer built on a quad operational amplifier. Three of it’s channels generate triangle waves of different frequencies, which can be adjusted by the three 20K variable resistors. The fourth channel amplifies the signal; the two transistors amplify the current, so you can connect a speaker to the output. The sound volume can be adjusted with the 1M variable resistor, which is connected into the negative feedback line of the 4th op amp. Unfortunately, as you could have noticed, I have way more experience with analog circuits than digital ones… But I’m still learning, and often experiment with microcontrollers (AVR), standard logic ICs, NE555 timer and so on. So I think very soon I will be able to show some of my digital constructions. It’s not going to be a TAS player (sadly, I do not even have any working game console nowadays), but something a lot more simple :)
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nesrocks
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A co-worker of mine did this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcAdO3PtyVw It is a motherboard that accepts atari 2600 and odyssey2 cartidges and controllers and plays them apparently perfectly. Outputting to vga. I wonder how hard it is to do this, as he said it was easy but I don't think it is. I know nothing about electronics so... edit: I didn't mean to kill the thread, I have the tendency to do that with my slightly off topic replies. Please ignore me.
WST
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Waduh… Today I took my breadboard and decided to try the leftmost part of this circuit The IC is К176ИЕ12 = MM5368 So I’ve connected everything and connected my frequency meter to pin 14 of the IC. And — what the hell — it shows 33.3. I guess clock quartz is not meant to be that wrong? I tried three of them, and they all result in the same output frequency — 33.3 kHz. May the reason be the parasitic capacity of the breadboard itself? Or my frequency meter is lying me?.. (upd) I present a small challenge for the members who are not really familiar with the electronics, but still enjoy my topic. You have to answer a simple question. I got a lot of light-emitting diodes. Some of them are red, some are yellow, some are green. There are also some, which are transparent, but all of them emit red, green, yellow, blue and orange colors. But I also got some black LEDs. Obviously, they do not emit black light (can you just imagine that?) — their actual color is infrared. Infrared (IR) light is completely invisible for the human eye. So, the question is: how do you think, if I connect this LED to my blink device and record a video with my mobile phone: 1. Will the light be visible on the video? 2. If yes, then what color it will be? I strongly advice the users who know the answer, not to post the answer here. Just wanna make a small challenge for everyone curious and then post the video answer :)
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My answer: 1. Yes, 2. red.
~ [I]feeuzz
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1. depends on the camera. 2. if it shows up, it's red. Explaining 1: Using a phone camera (or similar) has been a popular technique to debug IR circuits for some time now since it captures the infrared spectrum which allows you to see if the light is actually turning on or not. On recent phones however this is no longer possible as the manufacturers have started to add an IR filter by default.
WST
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Well, I wanted this to be a question for those who do not know the answer. But since you answerred correctly, and even explained your answer, it’s not interesting anymore. The only thing I’d like to notice is that the color is not actually red, and also depends on the camera — on mine it is clearly white. I’ll put a video soon. As about my clock circuit… I’ve just found a russian quartz and tried it; and it also resulted in 33.3 kHz oscillation frequency. Now I am almost sure that it’s all about my bad frequency meter (I’m using a cheap non-branded chinese multimeter to measure frequencies).
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On my camera I was surprised to see two pink lights on the wii sensor bar, but then I figured what it was. So, on my camera it shows pink.
WST
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Okay, the capacitors actually do affect the frequency, but getting ~32768 Hz is so damn hard that I have to postpone it. Actually, it’s not a good idea to make it on the breadboard, because the parasite capacity of the breadboard itself and connecting wires makes a quite significant contribution into the resulting frequency. So if I really decide making digital clock on pure logic ICs, I’ll simply reserve some space for a couple of adjustable capacitors when designing the PCB. The next problem I met, is that my 176ИЕ13 IC, which is also a required part of what I want to build, is broken. It’s not very surprising, though — I’ve took it from a broken old clock. So now the best thing I can do with it is to explode it =D I have to pause this project for a while — until I go to the city and buy a new IC (upd) another guy doing same kind of things ^^ Link to video
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)