Topic by BoltR

Posted: 5/6/2005 1:39 AM
(Edited: 1/16/2006 12:42 AM)

Post subject: Super Smash TV

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BoltR

Former player

Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada

Well, it's been suggested a handful of times, and I choose to give it a shot a few months back. About two seconds into the actual gameplay I decided that having to hold 8 buttons at once, and then attempting to press frame advance was just too hard for me to do by myself. It also took FOREVER to accomplish anything. So, I dropped the project months ago. Recently as the award nominations started I made a joke about how Smash TV would win most unbeleivable in 10 years time, after I got around to finishing it. Someone came up with the idea that I use dance pads to help reduce the amount of buttons I have to press with my hand. While I do have them, I didn't think this would work very well, but it gave me the idea to use an arcade controller which I have. So two days later, i've spent a few hours messing around with it, and I have completed the first room. Playing with my feet. The way i'm making the run is as follows: -Hard difficulty -Using a code to speed up the gameplay (Make it harder on myself, and more insane to watch) -Does not miss a shot -One person playing both characters -Does not die As I've said the first room is complete, and up to download. Unfortunately, it being the first room there isn't many enemies, so it's not much to watch yet. However if you have played the game for any length of time you know that in the later levels the whole screen can fill up with enemies, and not being totally overrun can be difficult.

Posted: 5/6/2005 1:53 AM

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Wren

He/Him

Joined: 4/11/2005
Posts: 196
Location: Michigan

Awesome, I am glad to hear your working on this game. I used to play this game all the time "back in the day" and I never even had considered how cool it would be speed ran in any shape or form. Now that you brought it up, though, it does sound very entertaining. I'll watch the first level shorty... just gotta dl the rom.

<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>

Posted: 5/6/2005 2:00 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

In Snes9x, you don't need to hold any buttons. You can just toggle them and have them automatically pressed. This will work as long as you're playing all frame advance. It's not as impressive as playing with your feet of course, but probably less frustrating in the long run.

Posted: 5/6/2005 2:11 AM

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BoltR

Former player

Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada

Truncated wrote:

In Snes9x, you don't need to hold any buttons. You can just toggle them and have them automatically pressed. This will work as long as you're playing all frame advance. It's not as impressive as playing with your feet of course, but probably less frustrating in the long run.

Back when I first started the run this wasn't and option. As for playing with it right now, while I cannot say i've actually tried, I think it would be more work. As I would have to be toggling multiple keys on and off every frame, and I just know I would be constantly missing keys or something. I'll try it though.

Posted: 5/7/2005 3:23 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Awesome to see someone crazy enough to do a 2-player time attack on this game! I had a few nitpicks / suggestions about your sample movie: 1) If you're going for fastest time, (not sure if you are specifically or not) you can exit the room quicker by not having the yellow shield at the end of the room. The red player is positioned to exit immediately, but the blue player can only get close enough to the exit door as the shield will allow until it dissolves, so there is extra waiting time there. 2) Also for fastest time, it saves a LOT of time to avoid all prizes and money, because that stupid screen at the end of each level gets annoying when playing normally. Unless there is a way to skip it that I'm not aware of. Hopefully this run continues to be updated, I'm very excited for it!

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 5/9/2005 4:01 PM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

I love it! And actually, I don't really care how much prize money you rack up, picking that stuff up is the fun part of this game. But yeah, this would be a really sweet run if you can manage both players well. Good luck, you'll need it.

Posted: 5/10/2005 3:22 AM

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BoltR

Former player

Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada

Before anyone else tells me that the link is dead, I am well aware. Although I didn't lose anything important in their sudden closure of the free accounts; I do find it amazing that they just shut the accounts down without ANY warning at all and then told people to pay for their service. I could see that pissing alot of people off as they might have lost alot of files. Anyways, for if anyone wants to watch what i've finished just contact me in the IRC channel and i'll send you in some way. I'll update the post with a new link as soon as I get another stable webhost which I want to post on a public forum. Also in reponse to jxq2000: I am aware of the yellow shield wasting time, but it only really registered that what I had done when I was half through the level. This only really wastes like 3 frames, and I don't AT ALL want to have to redo all of that just to save 3 frames. If someone wants to put the amount of effect required to make this video to beat me in time, then hats off to them. I'm also planning to getting alot of cash money prizes in this game, even though it takes a while to count up at the end of each level. It's a game show, what kind of super human contestent wouldn't try to get a ton of money while playing it! Also it can be pretty humorous just how many copies of the home game you can win. In truth i'm not too worried about speed, as I have no chance in hell of getting it even close to as fast as phsyically possible. In the later levels it will probably take ALOT of manipulation just to keep from dieing. It's a type of game which doesn't lend itself to speedrunning; however I beleive it will be more than entertaining enough to watch. There are other movies on this site which are entertaining for reasons other than speed, such as River City Ransom. *Note: This does not mean I won't be doing the game quickly, it will be done as quickly as I possibly can, but I won't be trying to get as many frames out of each room that I can. Barring any MAJOR mistakes I only plan to do each room once.

Posted: 5/10/2005 3:18 PM

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quietkane

Player (65)

Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.

No complaints here. I've never gotten through more than 5 rooms of the hard game, so the whole thing will be plenty impressive.

If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.

Posted: 1/15/2006 6:04 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Well, I have a strange problem. A little bit of this crazy run using "Smash TV (U).smc". I'm using SNES9x 1.43 v7 improvement by Nitsuja. The end of this file is supposed to have player 1 pick up a yellow shield, run it into the slow guy who borders rooms, and then the shield piece will fly into a large group of enemies on the right side of the screen. Unfortunately, the shield isn't always appearing, causing a desync. Playing the file normally causes some missed shots to happen in the second room, and play to just get lazy. Playing again, and fast-forwarding (with the tab button) until the beginning of the second room, the file syncs up more - the enemies are in the right places, and the shield appears (although I still haven't gotten it to play exactly as I did when I recorded it). I'm sure I didn't load bad savestates or anything like that (I don't think that matters with this game anyway). I wanted to work on this run in spare time, perhaps to take small breaks from Super Metroid, but these desyncs have got me holding off. Maybe this is just a game that has desync issues, like Mortal Kombat? I hope not. Anyway, if anyone has any ideas, that would be cool.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/15/2006 6:39 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Did you fiddle with the Five Settings?

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 1/15/2006 6:54 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Yeah, WIP timing needs to be on, but the rest don't seem to affect play. I can create either scenario based on whether or not I fast forward with any of the other four settings on or off (although I haven't tried every combination, I don't think it's the problem). My fast-forwarding is also set to skip rendering 50 frames.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/15/2006 6:55 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Well, I mean, try changing a setting and record an all-new version to see if it desynchs.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 1/15/2006 7:03 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

I wouldn't know how to test it properly because I don't know exactly where it desyncs - I just see some improper shooting shortly after the beginning of the second room if I don't fast-forward through it. (Not to mention that recording this run is a very tedious process.)

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/15/2006 7:05 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

Active player (277)

Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712

Oh... So you might not see the desynch in a sloppy realtime run?

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 1/15/2006 7:10 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

I'm not sure. I could try recording myself just playing a few rooms 1-player under different settings and see what happens (EDIT), but either I'm going to get a desync and be sure it's messed up, or not get a desync, and not be sure if I did something that would have caused a desync under different settings. ---- Further edit: Made a little run of the first level (oh man I suck at this game). Anyway, it desynced shortly into the second room again, unless I fast-forward, then it made it to the room just before the boss, and still desynced. I had all settings turned on except for left+right.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/15/2006 8:26 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Make sure you record with "Volume Envelope Height Reading" turned off. It often causes desyncs exactly like the one you're describing, where it sometimes plays back differently (especially when fast-forwarding), making it nearly impossible to record anything reliably. It only affects certain games (such as Super Bomberman games, Mortal Kombat games, and apparently this game). It disables some sound effect features to turn it off, but there's not much choice for such games. I just checked BoltR's movie and he had that option off (and didn't encounter any desyncs that I know of). Also, he was using a different ROM than what you used - do you know what the difference between them is?

Posted: 1/15/2006 8:53 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Thanks, that seems to be fixing my desync problem. Shouldn't have too much to redo, I don't think. I can't access BoltR's run. I used to have it but must have deleted it sometime without realizing it. The ROM info in my SMV is incorrect; I started using some other version that had a longer intro, so then I just edited the SMV to erase that delay and it didn't desync (only had 1 room done at the time). I'll eventually change that if I end up progressing in this run. I'm using "Smash TV (U).smc" with checksum 3147AD34. There's also a "Super Smash TV (U).smc", is that what BoltR used? I have no idea what the difference could be.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/15/2006 9:09 AM

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Tombad

Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 380
Location: Finland

Okay, here's the info from an earlier ROM I had, I guess this is the one used for BoltR's run. I can't access the run at the moment either so I can't be sure. Could your run be on a newer version or something? Not that I know if any exist.

File: G:\SNES\mov\Smash TV (U).smc Name: SMASH T.V. Speed: 20/SlowROM ROM Map: LoROM Type: 00 Kart contents: ROM only Header ROM Size: 4Mbits Calculated ROM Size: 4 Mbits SRAM size: 0KB (0Kbit) Actual Checksum: 5CBE Header Checksum: 5CBE Header Checksum Compliment: A341 Output: NTSC 60Hz CRC32: 2D0B20D0 Licensee: Acclaim ROM Version: 1.0 Region: USA/Canada

"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home." ( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )

Posted: 1/15/2006 9:38 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Here is BoltR's run, whatever I downloaded of it at least.

Posted: 1/15/2006 10:45 AM

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Dromiceius

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332

I can't confirm or deny whether the game has desync problems, since I had a few but they all could have been caused by mixing up the savestates. Here's relatively unimpressive WIP, which I'm putting on hold for the time being, since I wanted to have player 2 jump in during the mutoid man fight, but forgot to enable the second controller. Argh.

Posted: 1/15/2006 12:46 PM

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Swedishmartin

Joined: 11/26/2005
Posts: 285

BoltR's run was awesome. I didn't know you could keep the enemies away like that. I think that it would be cool if you waited for ten seconds in the hardest rooms before you start shooting.

Posted: 1/15/2006 5:54 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

Dromiceius wrote:

I can't confirm or deny whether the game has desync problems, since I had a few but they all could have been caused by mixing up the savestates.

I get similar desync issues when playing your run, that is; fast forwarding gives me a different result than not. Well since it's not a surprise anymore, here's what I was thinking for this run - I watched BoltR's run awhile ago and although it was impressive, I thought that an entire game of that type of play would become boring to watch. So I studied how the game releases enemies. What happens is that there is a preset number of minimum enemies allowed before it will dump more into the room. This number is 8 for the first couple rooms on 2-player, I believe. When that is reduced to 7, a random number of enemies enter the room, from 1 to 12 of them I've found so far. So, although enemies aren't killed as soon as they are spotted, you can still go for fastest time by staying ahead of this trend. I want to show off some strange stuff about the game in the first level, while I still have the time to mess around - things like how the enemy speed increases, and running through groups without being harmed, etc. By the time I get farther in the game, I'll just be concentrating on shooting enemies as much as possible. I'm also not using the turbo mode BoltR used because it seems like a secret code to me that could be used for faster game completion. EDIT: I started the recording over without Volume Envelope, and pasted my old run back into it. Then I tried a bit of hex-editing just to see what I could do, and I was able to fix the run! I removed one frame between the first and second room.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/15/2006 9:07 PM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

JXQ wrote:

What happens is that there is a preset number of minimum enemies allowed before it will dump more into the room. This number is 8 for the first couple rooms on 2-player, I believe. When that is reduced to 7, a random number of enemies enter the room, from 1 to 12 of them I've found so far. So, although enemies aren't killed as soon as they are spotted, you can still go for fastest time by staying ahead of this trend.

Does this mean (if going for fastest time) that you would want to manipulate only 1 enemy to appear then so there are fewer enemies to kill, or does it mean you would want to manipulate 12 enemies to appear so you can reach some kill quota faster? Also, about turbo mode, I'm not sure if you shouldn't use it. Although it requires entering a code, it is definitely a higher level of difficulty, and this wouldn't be the first game that is played (in a TAS) at a high level of difficulty that requires entering a code to choose. It doesn't make your characters go faster, right?

Posted: 1/16/2006 12:32 AM

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JXQ

Experienced player (750)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

nitsuja wrote:

Does this mean (if going for fastest time) that you would want to manipulate only 1 enemy to appear then so there are fewer enemies to kill, or does it mean you would want to manipulate 12 enemies to appear so you can reach some kill quota faster?

The latter; each room has a predefined number of enemies to dispatch. However, I'm not sure that it even matters, because enemies are entering from many entrances at once, and the gun only fires so fast. Honestly, if it requires that much manipulation, then I would just take out the "aims for fastest time" stipulation. I may end up having to do that anyway, depending on later levels, because I'm sure things could be done faster by manipulating which weapons to appear in the right circumstances.

Also, about turbo mode, I'm not sure if you shouldn't use it. ... It doesn't make your characters go faster, right?

It makes the entire game go faster, including enemies, your characters movements and all shot firing rates. So it's really the same game, just with less frames to work with.

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 1/16/2006 12:40 AM

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BoltR

Former player

Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada

You don't need to use a code to enable turbo mode, it gets activated one you beat the game as an extra challange. I used it because I wasn't about to beat the game through twice just to show the game at it's maximum difficulty. You also must remember how boring the last few rooms are going to be without turbo mode. They go on for so long. Edit: You also miss ALOT of shots in your movie, where in the fun in that? Looks like just a normal skilled player playing. Oh and about the "whole game being boring to watch" thing. That will be true regardless of if it's played on turbo or not. The final few levels are long, and boring.