When TASes are considered for publication, the entertainment value has great importance. If there is more than one way of doing something throughout the movie, and especially if these options are all equally fast, the most entertaining option should be chosen, or else the submission has a high probability of being rejected. Also in some cases even some things which may make the run slightly faster might still be rejected if they have an exceedingly negative impact on entertainment. This is a rather good principle in that it ensures a certain quality of entertainment, especially when from several choices the most entertaining one is required.
In the regular speedrunning community, however, it seems that they couldn't care less about entertainment. Even in situations where it doesn't really matter speedwise what you do (for example in interactive cutscenes which you can't skip), speedrunners often couldn't give a rat's ass about what is the most entertaining thing to do. They don't have to: Their run will be published anyways.
For example the HL:OF speedrun at SDA is a good example of this. In interactive cutscenes, instead of focusing into the story, following it and letting the viewer follow it too, it seems that the speedrunner made the best of his efforts to actually ruin those cutscenes and make them as unwatchable as he possibly could. He did this by, among other things, constantly (and very annoyingly) turning on and off his night vision goggles (this causes a doubly annoying effect: the screen flashes constantly, so it's almost impossible to follow what's happening in the cutscene, and turning the goggles on and off is accompanied with a noise which completely overwhelms the dialog).
A lesser example, and one which can be more argued for in terms of speedrunning, but still very annoying, is the FEAR speedrun (well, both of them, actually). The game itself is technically superb: It has superb graphics with very detailed textures, reflections, bump mapping, dynamic lighting and dynamic shadows. The game utilizes this graphics engine very well in many places, eg. by creating very cool dynamic lighting effects.
The speedruns, however, have been made with the *lowest* possible graphics settings (low-resolution textures, no bump-mapping, no dynamic shadows) and with the gamma correction turned to maximum (which effectively kills lighting almost completely, making everything look almost flat-shaded). The original game, with high quality settings, looks absolutely superb. The speedruns, with their lowest-possible quality settings and gamma correction turned to maximum, make the game look like absolute crap. Having played the game, looking at the speedruns like that is quite painful. All the marvelous graphics, lighting and shadowing completely destroyed. It almost looks like you were watching Quake2 with a monitor with a way too bright gamma correction.
I understand that from a speedrunning point of view they may want to get the highest possible framerate (to be able to react fast to everything), and by bumping gamma correction to the max they ensure that they can see everything, but from the entertainment point of view the visual quality of the video is completely destroyed and absolute crap. These runs would *never* be publishing-worthy as TASes here because of these visual quality issues.
Of course they don't care. The speedruns are published nevertheless. They don't give a rat's ass about entertainment issues.
Some speedrunners complain that TASing destroys the value of real speedrunning. Well, if they concentrated a bit more on actually making their runs *entertaining*, that would help a lot, IMO.
EDIT: PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING STUPID COMMENTS
Please don't read selectively "I hate speedruns", skipping everything else, and then make an ass of yourself by commenting on that mistaken assumption.
To make things absolutely clear: I like regular speedruns. I follow SDA and check it on a regular basis to see if new speedruns have been published for games I have played or like. Just last week I noticed a new speedrun of Driver (for the PC), which I immediately downloaded and liked. Moreover, I'm a huge fan of the QdQ speedruns and follow them even with more passion. (In fact, I even *bought* Quake (in a pack which had Quakes 1-3) partially because I wanted to see the QdQ speedruns on the actual game.)
So no, I do *not* hate speedruns in general. This is *not* an attack on speedruns or the speedrunning community.
What I do dislike is that in a few speedruns the runner seems to do his best to annoy the viewer whenever he can and doesn't seem to care at all about how entertaining the "boring" parts (eg. unskippable interactive cutscenes) of the run are. I also dislike when a runner selects the lowest possible graphical settings for the game, making it look like crap (although I understand there may be technical reasons to do that).
First off; I assume that all your comments towards (non-TAS) speedruns are about SDA in particular. If that's wrong, substitute for 'SDA' where appropriate.
I agree with most of the sentiments here, apart from your remarks about runners doing silly things during dead time - SDA isn't meant to show cutscenes, after all. While some people have complained about this (Lucid Faia for one, though he complains about a lot of things), the majority verdict is that it's the runner's run and they can do what they want, or at least that it's their own creativity at work.
About FEAR and graphics quality... there are people who do their very best to record speedruns at the maximum quality their system can handle (Kibumbi in particular). However, being unable to buy new hardware doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to showcase your own speedrunning talent. That would be somewhat unfair. If the gamma was used just to make it easier, than I have no sympathy for the guy, let it rip. :)
I am quite vocal on SDA about entertaining speedruns, and I push for them whenever possible, and decry those that aren't. Apart from that (I also make remarks about it whenever I verify) there's not really much else to do. Uyama for one disagrees with this, saying that records are more important.
Edit: A small example. A Klonoa: Door to Phantomile run was submitted recently, which I have rejected. Aside from things like 'runner error', I also mentioned that during fixed-time sequences, he did not attempt to collect pickups or do anything impressive. This is almost as important to me, and I would strongly argue in favour of obsoletion for a new run if this was carried out, even if the improvement was very small.
Groobo had a wooden computer at the time of recording the FEAR speedrun, so there was nothing he could do about it. That's also the reason he didn't do a H.264 encode. I hope he'll improve it on his new machine sometime in the future. :P
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
This is the same split/argument that has been hashed over here time and again:
is the goal to be a substitute for the guiness book, and be an authority on what the fastest times possible are? or is it an actual source of entertainment?
I like to think that we have put that one to bed in this community, but in others it seems they have moved to the darkside.
I'm not sure that I have a clear cut preference on the matter. Records probably mean more to me in the end, but if a less aesthetically pleasing run beats the record of a stylish and entertaining run, my vote would likely be, "great, now submit it again after you make it less boring." A boring run that is well-optimized is fine by me, and I'd accept it as the de facto movie for a particular game if nothing else has been offered. The entertainment factor only comes into play for me if someone else has already set the benchmark beforehand.
Of course, some games are just plain boring to watch, and that can't be avoided. Those examples are somewhat rare, in my book, but they do exist. Then again, I've watched both the Ice Climbers and Bubble Bobble warpless runs at 1:1 speed in their entirety, so I admit I'm not exactly the average viewer to gauge acceptable entertainment levels.
If you want to see entertainment in a potentially boring speed run, go watch Ace Combat 04: Shattered Skies. I say potentially boring because there are a lot of sections of the game that are timed sequences, which (at least on very easy) have a very easy score to acquire. Scores were gotten early and the run could have just gone around in circles, but they kept going - aiming for a high score, continuing to blow up stuff and just generally trying to entertain.
On the other side, there was an interesting thread about "ADHD syndrome" in some speed runs. Read it to get the opposite perspective of things.
Joined: 4/30/2006
Posts: 480
Location: the secret cow level
I totally agree about the HL:OF run... the night-vision thing drove me crazy. And also, if you're making a run of a PC game and using an in-game demo function, and your machine can't handle high settings, maybe you could pass the run to someone with a beefy machine to run it on high?
Argh. I watched this one recently. Repetitive flying around destroying things doesn't equal entertainment. I don't know what you could have done to make it entertaining. Fixed-time sequences usually suck. Actually, I would have been against allowing the game to enter the site; it is about as much a speedrun as a normal scrolling shoot 'em up would become.
Argh. I watched this one recently. Repetitive flying around destroying things doesn't equal entertainment. I don't know what you could have done to make it entertaining. Fixed-time sequences usually suck. Actually, I would have been against allowing the game to enter the site; it is about as much a speedrun as a normal scrolling shoot 'em up would become.
It's kinda of a trade off, in comparison to Ace Combat Zero, which has zero set time sequences, but I found the story to be fairly weak in comparison to AC04. I don't know why, but most of the sequences, despite their length, are kinda fun, especially Shattered Skies (#08)
I personally don't watch the PC games, partially because I don't play too many and partially because I find them considerably less interesting than console games, since there are (generally) more loading screens*. I tried watching KOTOR I believe it was and it was 5 seconds of play, followed by 20 seconds of load time, repeat over and over. THAT was boring.
*Yes, I realize console games today have loading screens, but most of the stuff I do are on older systems that didn't have that type of problem.
Don't fault the player for the faults of the game. Both of your examples are from PC-land, and are Western games no less, and both of these add up to a very different mentality than our console-and-Japanese focus over here. You want to follow the story in Half-Life? That's a first - most people just want to stack doors on people's heads and shoot them while they don't notice and keep talking, so that's what you get. You want to look at good graphics? Well, I'm sorry, but the lack of standardisation of hardware (and effort by developers) means the game looks like crap at low settings, which are the only settings anyone who doesn't have a spare $5000 every 6 months can manage. These are not faults of the speedrunners. If they are faults (and in my opinion they are) then the blame rests entirely with the Western studios who make the games.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Boco wrote:
Don't fault the player for the faults of the game. Both of your examples are from PC-land, and are Western games no less, and both of these add up to a very different mentality than our console-and-Japanese focus over here. You want to follow the story in Half-Life? That's a first - most people just want to stack doors on people's heads and shoot them while they don't notice and keep talking, so that's what you get. You want to look at good graphics? Well, I'm sorry, but the lack of standardisation of hardware (and effort by developers) means the game looks like crap at low settings, which are the only settings anyone who doesn't have a spare $5000 every 6 months can manage. These are not faults of the speedrunners. If they are faults (and in my opinion they are) then the blame rests entirely with the Western studios who make the games.
5000$ every six months? Don't be stupid. You were talking about half life, not Crysis, right?
The fact is, it would be neither difficult nor costly to get a PC that could do the job, but this speed runner didn't bother. Normally, I wouldn't care to mention it, but since you brought it up...
Also, I love the way you blame "the western studios" instead of simply blaming "the studios" that make the games. as if anything that doesn't come from japan is worthy of the honor of being the subject of a speed run.
So lets finish off with a rhyme:
You make me sick, you racist prick.
Why am I called racist for understanding and recognising differences between Western and Japanese game studios? It's a well-understood difference. Read this article.
"Flaws" like "being able to skip the story" and "different graphical experiences for different users" are unique to Western games. A lot of people like Western games. I don't. Why does that make me racist?
Anyway, whether or not I like Western games doesn't matter, since the complaints in the first post were about elements of Western game design and not about decisions made by speedrunners.
Twelvepack wrote:
The fact is, it would be neither difficult nor costly to get a PC that could do the job, but this speed runner didn't bother.
Some people over here in real-topia have trouble affording the $250-every-5-years that our standardised-hardware games cost. Why should we need to upgrade our computers more often than that, and why should game-quality computers cost more than that? (and they do. a game-quality computer is a very significant expense. off-the-shelf computers can't run anything better than WoW.)
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Boco wrote:
Why am I called racist for understanding and recognising differences between Western and Japanese game studios? It's a well-understood difference. Read this article.
As much fun as it is to recognize differences in tendencies, as soon as you make generalizations about a person's ethnic group, you are a racist.
Believe it or not, the problems you observed in half-life are problems created by a single developer. Even if other developers in the same country often share in that flaw, that does not excuse brash accusations about an ethnic group.
Boco wrote:
"Flaws" like "being able to skip the story" and "different graphical experiences for different users" are unique to Western games.
Bullshit, and you know it. "unique"? I can think of several counter examples, right off the top of my head. I could come up with more if it was worth itemizing a list.
Patronizing fuck.
Boco wrote:
A lot of people like Western games. I don't. Why does that make me racist?
It doesn't, your sweeping generalizations about a particular race does.
Next time, just keep your mouth shut. If you don't like the decisions made by some developer, say so, but don't pretend like it stems from some deep-seeded flaw in western thinking. As shocking as it may be, the western world is comprised of many individuals, some of whom might be able to wrap their heads around the founding concepts that make many Japanese games great.
What the hell? Where the hell did you get that? If I don't like Picasso's work (and I don't btw), it doesn't mean that I think he's an asshole. Or if I don't like western art altogether, it doesn't mean that I hate all individual white people. Are you serious with this?
I'm not really sure what the hell Western developers or lack of disposable income towards electronics has to do with this question at all. Way to stray off-topic, Boco.
Focus
The lack of entertainment in parts of non-TAS runs makes sense to me. Trying to pull off a relatively error-free, real-time run is extremely demanding and draining. Naturally, players want to "rest" during certain segments, and mentally prepare for the next part.
Furthermore, by making certain segments entertaining, they're "risking" their run, increasing the probability that they screw up, and lose time.
The 120 star Mario 64 run on SDA is a decent example; the guy tried to do something a little entertaining while getting on a platform for the 62nd star, and in the process, made a silly mistake costing himself over 30 seconds of time.
Thus, it's understandable, and one reason why I generally enjoy TAS runs a little more, although I watch both.
1) Boco did not stray off topic, because every point she made was made in relevance to Warp's opening post. Unless you chose to completely skip over the part where he attacks PC game graphical settings, but that's your own fault. Twelvepack is the one who strayed off topic to attack her unjustifiably.
2) Making an obvious statement about the wide and jarring differences in graphical settings on western PC games does not make one a racist. Stop trolling.
3) Breathe. Or don't, your choice.
Well, I'm sorry, but the lack of standardisation of hardware (and effort by developers) means the game looks like crap at low settings, which are the only settings anyone who doesn't have a spare $5000 every 6 months can manage. These are not faults of the speedrunners.
My computer is about 3 years old and it can play FEAR at almost maximum settings (only soft shadows make it too slow). If this speedrunner can only play the game at the lowest possible settings it means his computer must be over 5 years old or something. That's a rather long time in the gaming world.
"Flaws" like "being able to skip the story" and "different graphical experiences for different users" are unique to Western games.
The alternative to "different graphical experiences" is that games are either made for 10 years old PCs, or games are made only for a small amount of people who have a modern PC.
It's not like gaming consoles were free of the "having to upgrade" problem. For example, the xbox was introduced in 2001. The xbox360 was introduced in 2005. Only 4 years later. That's quicker than the average PC gamer will buy a new PC. So even if you are a console gamer, if you want the latest and fanciest games you'll have to buy a new console from time to time. Consoles are no better in this regard than PCs.
In fact, with consoles the problem may actually be worse: Either you upgrade or you don't play the game at all. With many PC games you can still play the game with your 10yo computer if you want. It may not be the fastest and fanciest, but at least you can.
My computer is about 3 years old and it can play FEAR at almost maximum settings (only soft shadows make it too slow). If this speedrunner can only play the game at the lowest possible settings it means his computer must be over 5 years old or something. That's a rather long time in the gaming world.
You realise that just running the game at highest possible settings doesn't really mean anything, since to actually record these speedruns we need to either run a screencapture program which takes a great deal more processing power to run at the same time as running the game? I can play a very old game called Unreal Tournament at around 300fps with every detail maxed for example, but playing with a screencapture program running and I'm lucky to get 30fps at 640*480.
Also Twelvepack your racist accusation is a bit hilarious, maybe you should read more about what she's saying before branding her a racist.
(Not only that but I'm not sure it would be racism anyway since 'Western' does not constitute a race or a nationality)
1) Boco did not stray off topic, because every point she made was made in relevance to Warp's opening post. Unless you chose to completely skip over the part where he attacks PC game graphical settings, but that's your own fault. Twelvepack is the one who strayed off topic to attack her unjustifiably.
I suggest you learn to read slowly and carefully, as you seem to get confused very easily, and don't understand what people are arguing. It's okay. I'll try to make it as simple as possible for you, like I'm talking to a five year-old, which, let's face it, I probably am;
Warp made an interesting post about the general lack of side-entertainment in SDA runs, and one issue he mentioned was the low graphic power on computers running newer games.
Methinks that's an issue related to motion-capture, (as ShadowWraith correctly pointed out) and playing on older computers, not the philosophical difference between Japanese and Western game designers.
And don't use the moronic excuse that it has to do with the available amount of entertainment, as game choice is a completely SEPARATE topic, and presumably has nothing to do with Warp's position at all. Hell, I mentioned how the 120 star Mario 64 run, one of my favorites on SDA, had very little side-entertainment in waited segments, and the reason why. Is that also because of those goddamn Western developers?
As for the ridiculous argument about disposable income for electronics, that's another red herring, because it's nothing more than an excuse.
I can play the same game;
"HEY GUYS!!! THIS SPEEDRUNNER CAN ONLY RECORD HIS RUNS BY SHOOTING IT ON A SHITTY, MID 90's CAMERA!!! LET'S NOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST HIM BECAUSE HE'S POOR, AND ACCEPT THE RUN ANYWAYS!!!!"
I don't give a fuck. I want to be entertained. Make an effort to get a computer that can do the graphics of a game justice, because I agree with Warp; some of the SDA runs are so goddamn dark and graphically lifeless, I can't see what the fuck is going on most of the time.
Now, stop trolling if you can't even bothered to read and understand what the hell people are saying.
There's one thing I'm curious of, in regards to PC runs.
...if people can't recording using FRAPS (or the equiv) on a high setting, why don't they use their video card's clone feature, since most modern video cards (of decent quality) have S-Video out now. Then they can record on a DVD Recorder. Plus, unlike the console folk, they already have a bypass already setup so there's no worries of lag!
...just wondering.
I don't give a fuck. I want to be entertained. Make an effort to get a computer that can do the graphics of a game justice, because I agree with Warp; some of the SDA runs are so goddamn dark and graphically lifeless, I can't see what the fuck is going on most of the time.
While it is true that SDA as a project was created for entertainment in the first place, and gathering records in the second (in contrast to Twin Galaxies, who only care about the latter), you can't expect every runner, as a content provider, to cater for anyone and everyone — which would be stupid, at least, so this kind of demanding attitude won't get you anywhere. There is already a lot of rules they have to abide by, including certain requirements for recording conditions (guess what for). Forcing mandatory entertainment activities in idle time, or recording with highest quality settings only, won't make more [high quality] content, no; it will simply rob you of some that doesn't suit your needs, considering the needs are very unstable as a whole. Because those runners that are able to do entertaining stuff or record with full settings on, already do so.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
There's one thing I'm curious of, in regards to PC runs.
...if people can't recording using FRAPS (or the equiv) on a high setting, why don't they use their video card's clone feature, since most modern video cards (of decent quality) have S-Video out now. Then they can record on a DVD Recorder. Plus, unlike the console folk, they already have a bypass already setup so there's no worries of lag!
...just wondering.
Because not every PC runner owns a DVD recorder, because it's not required unless you want to record something you can't capture with fraps or another screencapture program.
Also IronSlayer, Boco has a point because Warp also wrote about the skipping/ruining of cutscenes by the runners instead of leaving them in for people to watch. Though I don't know why she went on a tangent about game developers localisation rather than SDAs rules regarding cutscenes, there's no need to flame her about something that there's no need to be flaming her about. :)
