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How many CD-based TASes have been console verified again?
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So in light of the recent improvements to the rules about full completion, we established that sometimes there's no easy label for a full completion movie, if the full completion criterion is not monolithic.
In [3774] ZXS Castlevania: Spectral Interlude "100%" by Noxxa in 34:33.12, the full completion goal consists of a lot of objectives, which all originate from fundamental in-game features and match all other rules. But the overall goal is still compound.
By the current publisher guidelines, there's basically nothing we can put in the label. Because "100%" doesn't appear in the game as any sort of measurement, and all the other goals can't be deduced to anything simple, meaningful, and accurate.
So in this case, when the community agreed to have this goal as approved full completion for this game, people also agreed that using the "100%" label here makes the most sense. The only other option was putting literally "full completion" as a branch label, by this was liked by no one.
Here's my edit where I describe how I see this situation:
After heated discussion we agreed that when the full completion goal for a game is decided by the community to consist of maximizing several independent units, each on its own, we can't deduce such labels to "all X". If the game does not use the term "100%" for something special, compound full completion can be labeled as "100%". When "100%" means something different in the game, there should be a new iteration of discussion to come up with a name that's not "100%" and still represents full completion.
So we consider the "100%" label iconic [for speedrunning in general] and use it when we have to, when we can. Changed the branch back.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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BTW, with this installation of lav filters and without ffdshow, regular avisynth doesn't want to load an ffv1 clip for me, even though ffv1 is checked in lav's video config.
As for h264, we can ship lav filters with bizhawk prereqs.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
The "arbitrary" disc image being generated specifically for the movie submitted, in effect, is being made non-arbitrary due to the nature of it's creation. Thus it's going to be allowed for vault?
Or is this just a site standard for any run of these types of game that utilize additional 'arbitrary' CD data, and they still aren't vault eligible?
Extra CDs that aren't named by the game are not allowed to be literally arbitrary, have to be generated for the movie's goals specifically. Then movies utilizing them become vaultable. Arbitrary extra CDs aren't allowed even for Moons. But this rule doesn't differentiate between tiers. I'll add a note.
Warp wrote:
Is that really a good criterion?
I'd say that if the run is boring to watch anyway, the most unambiguous rule is to not allow any extra data. This especially since allowing extra CDs would make the run non-console-verifiable.
You don't have problems with the sentence that goes right after that one?
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Monster Rancher 2
It is a PSX game that tells you to insert arbitrary CDs into your console's CD drive while the game is running. There is an internal prompt mode (the Shrine) when this works. The instructions tell to try as many as possible. And every CD spawns a new character.
Hires scans of the CD and the manual.
This game can be completed without extra CDs. Some of the characters you would be able to spawn this way can be obtained without extra CDs too. But the game itself was made to be so incredibly boring without this feature that no one who knows the game thinks it's meant to be played without extra CDs. Even the RTA community uses them in the speedruns.
Even with the extra CDs, the game is utterly boring to watch a movie of. So It's impossible to accept it to Moons. And there's been a lot of discussion among users and staff members about eligibility of such scenarios for the Vault tier.
Vault
The Vault tier requires clarity.
Vault rules wrote:
Goal choice criteria must be clear, non-controversial, and objectively verifiable. Vault requires clear cuts, so a movie with unclear goals that can not be agreed upon will be rejected.
Since day one, Vault is limited to 2 most clear and obvious movie goals, fastest completion and full completion. Game choice is also strictly limited to games that can provide for a meaningful tool-assisted record.
So the Vault rules are also clear and strict. They consist of clauses that can be objectively checked. And we don't make exceptions to the Vault rules. Because it'd violate the principle of clarity and blur out the borderlines, opening the Pandora box of unpredictable decisions.
Problem
If we allow arbitrary extra CDs for Vault, all sorts of crazy unresolvable problems appear. We can't afford trying every image in the world hoping that it results in optimal outcome. Also we can't make our movies depend on images that may be impossible to obtain. And we want to shut ourselves off dependency images that may cause copyright and legal problems.
If we disallow them, the community gets sad. Because I talked to lots of people, including judges and admins, and no one actually wants this feature to be banned from Vault.
On the other hand, when dealing with something that's arbitrary in nature, and trying to make it fit into a system with strict rules, you either have to throw the rules out of the window, or the arbitrariness. Or both. And since adding exceptions to Vault rules damages its main point, record keeping (you can't know if something in the Vault is even a record anymore nor whether it tries to be), we really have to sacrifice arbitrariness here if we want new non-standard content to be available.
Solution
When the game asks you to insert a certain specific image (in-game or through the instructions), it is considered a part of the game. And it can only be inserted when the game explicitly prompts for that. Inserting images that weren't asked by the game is not allowed.
When a game asks you to insert an arbitrary image,
1) you need to use an image that's been generated exactly for this movie,
2) you need to provide instructions how to recreate it,
3) this image has to serve the goals of your movie as optimally as reasonably practicable,
4) you need to provide insight on why you consider it optimal,
5) the method used to create it must be free and easily accessible.
Only such "arbitrary" images are allowed, and only when the game duly prompts for inserting them.
This rule is for all tiers.
This was approved by Nach and liked by judges. Opinions, suggestions, complaints? Also maybe I forgot something?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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FitterSpace wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/3410M.html
Does this TAS qualify for fastest completion? The highest difficulty in GoldenEye Wii (called 007 Classic) adds additional objectives that need to be completed. The fastest way to complete the game from start to finish is by playing on the easiest difficulty since you don't have to do those extra objectives. But on the other hand, this TAS does complete the game as fast as possible, just on a higher difficulty that takes a little longer. Also, would this TAS qualify for vault?
Edit: I should also mention that I do plan on making a TAS on the easiest difficulty one day, since the lack of additional objectives means that a lot of really cool glitches can be done to skip parts of the game. If I made a TAS on that difficulty and it were published here (along with an updated 007 Classic TAS), would both of them have the "fastest completion" flag? Both TASes would have the goal of beating the game as fast as possible, just on different difficulties that make the runs different lengths.
Hard difficulty is already vaultable. And preferable in general. Especially if it makes the movie more challenging and more entertaining. If you make one on easier difficulty, it might be accepted to Moons if it's different enough and entertaining enough, but if it's boring, there's actually a rejection chance. It's only faster because the challenge has been reduced, and the harder challenge is already there.
As for the flag for when they are both in Moons, I don't have a clear answer just yet. Can't guarantee they both get accepted.
As for unlockable level sets, they are allowed for Vault, see the clarified rules:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#Vault_2
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"Most users" comes from my unfixed post which comes from my 4-year-old memory. There has been discussion about how could existing problems with the Vault tier be fixed, and this name was a part of the most supported idea. Renaming doesn't magically fix a lot of things, it only fixes some. Not fixing anything was the most supported option of the poll, but polls don't reflect a lot of aspects either. While during actual discussion opinions may evolve and people can come up with improvements to others' ideas.
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EZGames69 wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
feos wrote:
...the Vault tier (which I'd still love to be renamed to Coins).
Off topic, but I like this idea. Keeps in line with using Mario 'power-ups' as the tier labels.
I personally find the Vault tier to be just fine as it is. The point of the tier was to accept any (or most) games on the site for record purposes. Naming it "Vault" makes sense because it acts as a archive for records on fastest completion and fastest 100% completion. I dont see how "Coins" would fit that description, and it might just cause confusion for a lot of people.
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Nach wrote:
VirtualBox has settings as to whether you want to use the host hardware or not. Obviously anything tightly coupled to the host shouldn't be used. That's where Hourglass has also had issues, where games acted slightly differently depending on the video card used.
Well I can't check this particular case anymore, but the main question is, was VB even designed with determinism in mind? I think it takes a dedicated guru to dig into the code and do the checks, as well as through usage. But even though this environment would allow games more modern that PCem probably, I really doubt games that require modern hardware are going to work at tolerable speeds if at all.
By the time there appears someone to start this work, PCem might be already way ahead by what it supports. Also linux TASing is already a reality, and if Wine is possible to get to work, quite some Windows games also become available for TASing without speed decrease (unless you're on a VM of course).
Bottomline: there are several directions to explore, it just takes code maniacs.
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It won't be widespread, because when you know how to do such runs, at some point the concept gets old and you aren't interested in making more and more submissions of it.
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Omnigamer wrote:
The flaw or ambiguity in 5 though is asserting that the content resulting from using the input is not available at the start. It is available from the start - exactly through reading the nonstandard input. This is no different from the content that can be accessed from game start through controller input alone.
You can not argue with a general statement. There can be specific combinations in games that spawn new characters that you can not select before entering such combinations.
You can not have entered such a combination before starting the game. Because such a combination is only ever read after the game has already started. Which means if you don't enter this combination, you don't get this special character, and it won't be available from the start.
Omnigamer wrote:
For numbers 6 and 7, I don't see these as reasonable or enforceable limitations. Plenty of games have content that is not explicitly detailed in-game or in user documentation, including special moves, secrets, and otherwise. Are all such content also not vault eligible? Or looked from the other perspective, if a developer explicitly lists a cheat code in a game manual, can using it be vaultable?
11 is not a clear concept. What is the functional difference between a set of inputs to generate content and a set of inputs to select pre-formed content? For MR2 specifically, it is not required to obtain a monster from the Market (pre-formed) to complete the game. It is optional to visit it at all, as you can obtain similar outcomes from the Shrine (generated). The only difference is that one method requires nonstandard input, while the other can be accessed with only controller data. If the nonstandard input is already regarded as part of the input set, the cases are identical.
Nonstandard input by itself I consider a normal input method for this game. But the key point is, what do you send as input data? Usually games tell which control does what in the game, it teaches you how to use controls. It may also teach you what codes you can send, and what they do. CD data here is a black box, and I don't think this can be contested. You do not know from the game instructions which CD bit does what in the game. This is used as a random seed, and it's supposed to look random when trying a new CD.
And using CDs is optional simply because you can complete the game without them. Both Shrine and Market are optional. In SMB, the A button is required, but the B button is optional. The Reset button is optional there as well. And the Start button is too
I don't think we need to draw any legitimacy lines between generated content and pre-formed content. We do not care which exact procedure is used to define your character. We only care how you enable this character in the game. By sending a specific input combination or by playing the game gradually and/or with glitches.
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Correct.
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Even after having read the rules added to the page?
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<feos> the thing is
<feos> this game Masterjun writes to fuck with our rules lets you collect icons of Nach, there are 20. and lets you kill an adelikat boss at level 5 that makes the game show the ending. you can avoid collecting the icons, and you have to kill adelikat to see the ending. then the game sets a timer and enemies just spawn and fly around killing you like in reallyjoel's mom difficulty. you dodge for 10 hours, you get some sort of full completion reward. what do?
<feos> it could be said that for such a game, we have both "100% completion" and "best ending" classes, and only the latter is vaultable? or only both?
<feos> any of these options being vaultable would be a community definition anyway
<feos> "both" being considered FULLER full completion would make sense for vault indeed, and be clear. but still loose, since it's compound
<feos> community decision is absolutely unavoidable
<feos> so in case of any possible competition for the vaultable 100% branch, we'd have to make a decision anyway
Bottom line: Arbitration Community Decision of Appeal is already described in the rules, it's called a clear consensus. So we don't even have to change anything.
22:56:34 <Masterjun> feos: I kind of want a text size 9 disclaimer at the bottom that I'm not actually making a game
PS: Difference between arbitrary and arbitration.
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First, please don't call community definitions arbitrary. Call them loose, because they are still very strictly limited. They are loose within those limitations, and arguably loose compared to in-game definitions. But in no way arbitrary.
Second, nice digging! You're describing 2 kinds of full completion definitions competing for a place in the lowest tier! We need clear definitions of everything in the Vault, so arguably, the most clear one should win. But we can't have 2 such definitions, one being vaultable. We only view something certain as actually full, otherwise the term is pointless.
If in cases of conflicts regarding vaultability we prefer in-game definitions, then community definitions would have to be entertaining enough for Moons. For me this makes sense.
If we prefer community definitions, then something that's arguably more objective and official won't have a chance at alll.
If we prefer whatever is more complete for Vault, then the shorter one has to be moonable. This makes even more sense to me.
But the question remains, which one do we mark as "100% completion" movie class? I feel I need Nach's advice here.
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Check out these changes guys. Approved by Nach.
http://tasvideos.org/diff.exe?page=MovieRules&rev=339&prev=337
Also if anybody knows games where no input combination is explicitly suggested by the game, yet most to all combinations spawn new content not present from the start (characters, abilities, modes, etc), please name them!
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Yes but what should we do for compound goals that the community agreed to define as full completion? This may happen to be neither best ending nor max points. Completionist won't work either, because it might not be "maximize EVERYTHING!!!", just several different things.
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scrimpeh wrote:
FWIW, [3257] GBC Shantae "100%" by arandomgameTASer in 1:19:15.18 is called 100%, despite the game not tracking a percentage counter, or giving you any reward for getting everything in the game.
I don't really see the problem with 100% tbh. As long as the criteria are well defined and it covers everything in the game world, what's the problem?
100% is defined as all transformations, all items, which includes every collectible in the game. This means GBA mode has to be enabled to get the Tinkerbat transformation.
I feel that if full completion consists of more than a single maximized unit in a movie, we should use "100%" rather than "all X", because otherwise it'd result in bloated branch labels. But if it can be deduced to just one unit, we must use that unit.
If the game shows percentage, and maximizing it is all we need for full completion, we can use N%. But if there are extra goals decided to belong to full completion, this becomes moot. Because we don't limit ourselves to the in-game goal, yet we use its name...
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If that glitch setup is used in a new movie, but not here, this one can still be accepted, depending on the details of the difference between using the glitched setup and avoiding it.
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If we complete this game even faster by using this glitch, it will stop being related to our fundamental speedrunning rules. So the current movie is fastest completion, and it is a valid publication for this game! And if a movie avoiding the glitch is faster, it will obsolete it for real.
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Look at this cute table oh man this is so cool.
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Warp wrote:
Precisely this was discussed many times years ago. I'm glad it's finally been implemented.
The first suggestion for this flag was 4 years ago:
I can draw a movie flag for "fastest branch" in a few minutes, and all will be happy: all who want to know the fastest one would instantly know it, all who want to know the conditions would see it in the labels.
Recently, after this happened, and adelikat expressed that he honestly does not like how we dropped the blank label that used to equal any%, I felt that we have to give people who need this some helping hand.
Warp wrote:
Back when this was discussed, the question arose whether "fastest completion" means that absolutely anything goes, no matter what. In other words, even if the run just jumps from the main menu to the end credits in a fraction of a second (as has been demonstrated to be possible, even with console verification, at least in one case), literally showing no gameplay (or even the main menu itself) at all.
Has this question been resolved with a simple "yes", or are there some more complex criteria?
If you look at the RTA community, they have several "any%" branches, distinguished by some limitation or feature, for example "any%, no major skips". This happens because they explicitly use the very term "any%" in their branches, and we don't. So for them it has to be something descriptive (a string), and for us it's just a flag (a boolean). We use branch labels for brief indication of what to expect from a movie, and "any%" as "fastest completion" has been completely disregarded (no offense Nach, we all basically agreed with you there).
Ever since then I've been playing with this idea every so often, and my most fundamental solution was this:
We have an entire movie tier dedicated to exactly this: a clear and obvious definition of the "fastest completion" branch. It happens to have different labels and movie classes, because they are used for different purposes, but we still depend on being able to figure out what a vaultable any% branch for any given game is. Without knowing this, we won't be able to decide whether some boring movie has to be accepted to Vault or rejected. So TASVideos does use a certain definition of any%/fastest completion. Therefore we can document it. Therefore we can explicitly use it for the purpose people wanted the blank branch for: indication of a clear and obvious binary thing that speedrunning is all about.
The only definition for this flag that we can productively use is the one we're already using when judging movies: it should belong to every vaultable branch that is not "full completion" (which is another single vaultable branch.
And here we just note that if several branches are fundamentally allowed for Vault aside from "full completion", they all belong to any%. Good thing we have descriptive branch labels: when someone sees 2 branches for a given game have this flag, they also see what the difference is by simply looking at the labels. It was a very good idea to keep those labels in official movie names.
[3185] NES Inversion by MESHUGGAH & jhztfs in 05:18.91[3187] NES Inversion "Extra world" by MESHUGGAH & jhztfs in 01:16.44[3271] SNES Prince of Persia by Challenger & Odongdong in 33:31.20[3670] SNES Prince of Persia "Training mode" by Challenger in 03:31.10
Two vaulable movies distinguished by the region. God this is so neat!
[1302] NES EarthBound Beginnings (Prototype) by Nitrodon in 47:56.08[3714] NES EarthBound Beginnings (Japan) "warp glitch" by chatterbox in 23:07.85
To finally answer to your question, since avoiding things like a "game end glitch" for games where it's possible is not vaultable, we can't use such a flag for them. And that is our borderline that is inherent to our definition of any%, which is in turn inherent to our definition of the Vault tier (which I'd still love to be renamed to Coins).
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ais523 wrote:
100% rules question: say a game contains 100 items, some of them have duplicates out of bounds, and collecting both the out-of-bounds and in-bounds copy does not increase your percentage more than collecting just a single one. Is it legitimate for an all-items/100% run to collect just an out-of-bounds copy of an item, and not the intended original?
feos wrote:
The game officially promoting maximizing some item or action, can't be completely disregarded if we want to come up with a solid full completion definition for a given game.
On the other hand, we can't limit ourselves to this alone either, because the community speedrunning the game may happen to have fuller definition for full completion.
So to actually define full completion for a given game, we can't have strict rules, but we can have guidelines that would let us understand how to even handle this.
Here's what has been agreed on, on IRC:
Read the manual.
See what the game tracks, recognizes, awards for.
Check what existing speedrun community does.
Talk to the community and try to come up with an agreement.
Keep the definition clear and solid considering the above factors.
I added the last point to indicate that when people are brainstorming, we must encourage them to come up with clear and solid definitions, but we still rely on the community decision.
So if everyone agrees that this movie's goals should be considered full completion for this game, at least for tasvideos, we can consider it vaultable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
