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Can the entire game be beaten that way? I imagine switching players that do the job for every track, since the one who loses gets placed first. But do they advance to the new country after losing half of the times?
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Okay. The ending. At tasvideos, we don't consider the game reasonably beaten if you just reach some score, even if the game says it's your goal. For games without an ending, we judge by unique content and difficulty. An invisible enemy is difficult in real-time, but trivial in a TAS. Yet it's arguably more difficult than the prior enemies. Also, it's the last unique one.
But the thing is, what's the point in spawning the most challenging/last unique enemy if you don't defeat it? The rules don't clearly ask for that, and I guess we need to clarify this, but consider this example:
Say we have a game with 100 enemy slots, it spawns them on timer, and you don't have to defeat them to let the new ones spawn. They just spawn, and the game becomes harder with increasing amount of enemies on the screen. And each enemy is a bit harder than the previous.
The current rules don't explicitly require to beat any of these enemies. But it doesn't mean that you just have to spawn them all and die, even thought it'd effectively mean "no more unique content is shown". The point of game completion is completing this unique (and/or hardest) content that is provided.
I'll clarify this in the rules, but I think it's quite obvious that this last enemy needs to be defeated to say "we completed all that is unique in this endless game".
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#GamesWithoutClearEnding
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The best way to verify this is looking at the game code where it decides which enemy to spawn.
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Here's another movie, this time 2-player Paris:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47797322823909438
Video comparison:
https://yadi.sk/d/hh3tOxg33Xsjnw
00:03.87 seconds faster (in-game time for this game is quite accurate to real time frames).
You might think it's not that much. But this is just one track. See how many rerecords it took me. Of course I don't know this game that well, so a lot of them come from familiarizing myself with it. But after I did so, I want to say that your run lacks planning and serious optimization.
I'm not saying my attempt is fully optimal. But check out my usage of Nitro and gears, as well as acceleration management on turns.
If you beat me on that track, I might consider the result optimal enough to be accepted, but again, this is just one track. The same amount of planning needs to be done throughout the entire game!
I don't know if you want to work on optimizing it for real, but if you try, post your progress on forum after each level. That way people will be able to check optimality of your work before it's too late. Use userfiler to host your WIPs.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/my#uploadfile
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I'm doing a proper 2p test of Paris.
But before I finish, as also said in GameFAQs, this game has a password glitch similar to the one in Top Gear 2. You can simply enter an empty password, ignore the warning, and start with the country you want.
This is not a debug/cheat, because it does the same thing as actual passwords - it only takes you to the country, not to the city of your choice.
If a run without this glitch is considered too boring for Moons, it will be rejected for avoiding time saving glitches for no reason.EDIT: Seems to be just a rumor originated from Top Gear 2. Doesn't work in this game.
Additionally, if one aims for the in-game time instead of real time, the second player won't be needed. Which, judging by your explanation of the 4th gear glitch in your video, makes a 1p run significantly faster than 2p.
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Is any of these vaultable?
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Can't you just keep the other player behind so you don't have to bump each other all the time?
In this 1-player test I reach the end of Paris in 6680 frames (01:51.36 in-game time), while you reach it in 6963 frames (01:56.08). I don't know why do you call it "abuse", it's just how the game engine works: the red car accelerates faster while on the 4th gear, it is optimal to use it, avoiding this technique is sloppy play.
I'll turn this into a 2-player test for the sake of experiment.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47780402692011774
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Tremendous job gentlemen! Here's some cookies for you two.
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Look at the startup part. None of you 2 is pushes, both are driving on a straight line. I'll be testing this track in your conditions.
The problem is, the movie rules say that a speed-oriented movie must beat all existing records. You don't seem to have checked this record.
Explanation of gear techniques from GameFAQs, for the reference (inluding the 4th gear tips):
Anyway, here's the legendary "Red Car Top Gear 4th Gear Trick" to shed extra seconds off your race time in the Cannibal (Red Car) This is not a glitch and is not a cheat- it is smart driving. In my opinion, this car was designed to run in 4th gear beyond what automatic transmission does for it. Automatic transmission for the Red Car is **bad**, we'll leave it at that. To be a true speed-master of the track, drive the red car in manual transmission.
Here's the trick-
Watch your speedometer, and let it run in 4th gear all the way up to around 215-225 Km/h (to figure out MPH for this equivalent, divide the Km/h by 1.6-- but I always drive in Km/h since it's a lot more accurate.)
Being in 4th gear up to around this speed will make your red car accelerate MUCH faster than if you had shifted earlier to 5th gear. It is also advised that you downshift to 3rd gear and then 4th for awhile if you hit an opposing car.
When going downhill, if your speed is below 220 Km/h, throw it into 4th gear. Memorize which sections of each tracks have decent downhill runs, and throw it into 4th gear when going down them for some extra speed. Your car should hit around 230 km/h or so, and once it gets around to that speed, shift to 5th gear to build further speed, as well as save
your fuel (running at higher revs in lower gears burns more fuel.)
When using a nitro, ALWAYS have the car in 5th gear, unless your speed is below 220 km/h from hitting a car or something. If that happens, shift down to 4th gear, and throw it back into 5th gear once you hit around 220-230 km/h, to make your nitro boost maximize its power, as well as conserving fuel.
In short, through using gears with the red car-
1st Gear- Shift up at the start of the race as soon as your tach fills to about halfway (audio cue also helps a good bit)
2nd Gear- Same as the first gear, shift up ASAP, you don't need to stay in this gear for long.
**3rd Gear- Should only be used if your speed is below 160 km/h. This will get you up to speed quicker. Shift up as soon as you hit 185-190-ish.
***4th Gear- The best gear to accelerate (gain speed) in. Hit it to 4th gear when you are above 190, and keep it in 4th until you hit around 215-225. Use this gear when going downhill if your speed is below 225. Once you get above 230 when going downhill, shift to 5th to get more speed and save fuel.
On long endurance races (pit stop races), you shouldn't run it in 4th gear long (try to use it only on downhill stretches-- like the end part of Tokyo, for example), so use 5th when around 215 or so to conserve your fuel.
On 3-4 lap "sprint" races, this really doesn't matter. Drive in 4th as much as you need to, sprint races are easy to win in the red car. You should not run out of fuel in any of them except Stonehenge, so drive as aggressively as you want. When using the red car, consider "sprint" races an easy 20 points.
***5th Gear- 5th gear should be used when your car hits around 215-225 km/h in speed, or, of course, when you are using a nitro. The 5th gear saves your car fuel and is the "holding speed" gear. If you're smart, you can actually hold speeds of 240-250 km/h in 5th gear for a long time.
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Look like a good candidate. Just can you guys please rate it a bit harder?
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You're losing several in-game seconds to the run published 14 years ago (on the Bordeaux track). How is it possible, given that run uses the same difficulty? It only uses one car, and starts from the first place, but from what I'm observing so far it's just plain faster.
[113] SNES Top Gear "one track" by Phil in 03:51.17
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Not MAME, PCem! MAME doesn't emulate anything above 486. PCem has high chance of being added to bizhawk.
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Why?
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<Mothrayas> "You've thought Mario was a cute little pet that makes everyone's life brighter?"
<Mothrayas> do they still keep people as pets in russia?
<feos> :)
<feos> we're all pets of the regime
<Masterjun> perfect execution feos
<Masterjun> that ":)" looks threatening like it rarely does
<Masterjun> it's all coming back to me
<Masterjun> help
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It was tried and miserably failed. I wasn't really around, you'd need to ask the elders what exactly happened.
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Oh boy. I finally watched it. This run is absolutely fucking brilliant.
You've thought after MrWint's bots this game's speedrunning was finallyofficiallyproperly dead? Meet 2 fucking framerules saved!
You've thought Mario was a cute little pet that makes everyone's life brighter? Meet this bloody massacre!
You've thought Wario was the evil twin of Mario? Meet this terror who is sick of his own game and wants to blast it into pieces!
You've thought you've seen all the tricks that don't waste time, and all the more elaborate ones that cost it? Meet this absurd mess that builds itself like a hallucination.
You've thought speedrunning was about going fast? Meet this run that flips the chessboard and plays its own game by slowing down, only to arrive exactly at the same time!
This is absolutely in every way a star to me, a NES TAS of the year, and I really want the warpless walkathon star to be moved over here.
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I have a few questions. It absolutely doesn't sync on any other Dolphin version that has no av desync? Did av desync for the author too? Is it certain that av desync is not caused by missing audio samples, for which Ilari made this tool? Are savestates of other Dolphin versions incompatible?
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Stop speaking for the entire community. Stop accusing staff who invests all their effort into handling everything, in being just a very small group of people. Stop exalting your subjective opinion over the entire community. Stop rewriting history.
No one decided that there was too much discussion. All the discussion that's been before my suggested solution has naturally stopped by itself. Literally nothing was enforced without discussion. You can pretend you're able to read everybody's mind and claim that they've given up. Yet you want the entire community to give up and accept your narrow-minded vision instead of the compromise that serves all the goals I listed.
Unfortunately it is exactly the main problem with your suggestion. You don't care what happens to everything and everyone after it's enforced and everyone who disagrees with you gives up.
This somewhat demonstrates how far you are ready to go when it comes to actually resolving the problem.
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Sorry Aran. I tried reading a whole lot of your posts, and I simply can't. I keep giving up three lines into a sentence of 10.
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I guess I'll have to do it for you then.
When you have 2 camps with contradicting opinions on some subject, and each camp is approximately half of of your audience, blindly enforcing either opinion is impracticable, one-sided, unhelpful and narrow-minded. Especially when it's the audience who contributes and manages content in your community. You have to come up with solutions that would relax the tension, satisfy the overwhelming majority, be definable in a way that'd make sense to this majority, and serve on the long run. If you're unable to come up with such solutions, things will be getting worse, tension will keep increasing, flamewars will keep raising, and no one will be happy. One half will be annoyed with the enforced policy, another will be annoyed with the fact that they are disagreed with. And all this will be just a result of lazy staff who's unable to resolve the problem.
To resolve this problem, we had a staff conversation back in 2014. And we all agreed that whatever mess was introduced after retiring the "glitched" branch and removing the label from all "any%" branches, it should be fixed by using branch labels to describe the movies themselves, instead of describing the difference from "any%". The first thread you've seen contains the discussion where we try to point out all the problems we see and suggest solutions. The second thread suggests a solution. This solution was based on all the previous disagreement and agreement, and it was also commonly agreed upon, as lack of flamewar in that thread indicates.
The solution was to completely avoid enforcing either of the two originally suggested approaches. Because both of them are 100% based on subjective things called opinions. We stopped relying on opinions in labeling branches. We started relying on statistics. Whenever the approach of some branch is so common that it's default, we leave it without label. Because it's already implied. Whenever the approach of some branch is uncommon/rare/unique, we label it. When it's somewhere in-between, we label both variants.
But the important part of the original staff agreement was that "any%" is not something that needs to be addressed in the branch label. Because doing so results in the mess I'll show you after I find all the examples that convinced us back then. "Any%" is not descriptive. It tells nothing about gameplay conditions used to beat the game ASAP. Gameplay conditions are differences between branches. Difference between branches is what we need to mention if we want branch labels to help people orient in them.
So for internal game conditions we agreed to mention all options. And for external game conditions we agreed to mention the rare ones. Sorry that I don't have all the IRC logs from 2014. But it was all discussed in the usual #tasvideos room, and everyone could participate.
Now note that the main problem, "glitched vs. blank" and "blank vs. no X glitch", was resolved by not enforcing either of these options. We don't use "glitched" anymore for "major skip glitch" branches. And we don't use blank label anymore for any%. Because, as I said, these were subjective opinions of 2 halves of the community, and enforcing either of them is in no way a solution.
You may say that all this isn't contained in the second thread I linked. But all the main principles are, and I couldn't believe they remain unapprehended after having read that thread and remembering the events that led to it.
And what do we label explicitly, and how? Use SMB3, Battletoads, Super Mario World, Super Metroid, and Super Mario 64 as examples of how perfectly your suggestion serves your plan.
Also note that "goals" is a rather broad term that you'll have to clearly define before demonstrating your suggested system in action, if you want the system to only care about this single aspect. The branching system since 2013 requires branch labels to not only accurately depict the goals and achievements, but to also differentiate each branch from others. Keep this requirement in mind when showing examples of your approach.
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Ah, so you're fine with ignoring half of our audience? OK. You've just been ignored as the unlucky half.
You've clearly skipped the second thread I linked.
You've clearly skipped the second thread I linked.
Seeing is not enough. You will have to read it. Especially when you try to pretend it has nothing to do with this conversation.
Okay. Now please go and read the second thread.
That's a bold claim after having refused to actually read.
It's here http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15247
I will. But I'll need you to post a full definition of the approach you defend, so I don't end up arguing with a false interpretation of it.
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This is known. As I said, unfortunately, 40% of the audience do consider this an issue.
Where are you getting this from? It's not what the Judge Guidelines say. They say that double obsoletion (for example any% obsoleting any% and 100% at once) can happen when the new run achieves the goals of both other branches. Cross-branch obsoletion is another thing, and it only happens when the branches are similar enough.
Thanks for your binary opinion. Are you sure that if it doesn't matter for you, all other people should be forced to stop caring?
I guess you've missed this thread then. Which is strange, because you've posted there.
I guess you've missed this other thread then.
Thanks for sharing your feelings.
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If hardest difficulty adds variety and complexity, is harder to play and to TAS, use that. If it only makes things tedious and long, use easiest. If unsure, use hardest.
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How old? Your warped run was renamed 4 years ago. You mean even older? Community decided that the older approach doesn't work. I was okay with the older one. But we had to invent something new, and it was invented. Note that these threads mostly talk about "glitched". But the problem is identical. What happens when "glitched" branch is shorter than "warps"? We change the warped branch from blank to "warps", and remove the branch from "glitched", since it's now faster? 40% of our members insisted on that. Other 40% insisted on keeping the warped branch labelless, and labeling the "glitched" one. Really, such problems can't be resolved in a way that's perfect to each contradicting camps. So yes, we invented a compromise.
But as was pointed out by Nach in this thread, even then we'd have to rename branches constantly, every time a new branch appears. So we decided to give branches names that'd stick for years.
You only see tags if you look at the entire publication module. We don't add all the info from tags each time we mention some movie by name. Examples: wiki tag [xxxxM] that turns into movie name, forum tag [movie], history of publication entry, site front page, submissions, youtube video name, etc. All these don't tell anything that's in the movie classes. We don't embed all the movie classes into publication names. If we did, it'd be awfully overloaded. And if we remove all branches that tell the same thing as movie classes, all the above examples will end up with identical movie names for all branches of each game. Take Battletoads as an example.
NES Battletoads (USA) by MESHUGGAH, feos & Koh1fds in 00:55.66NES Battletoads (USA) by feos, Alyosha & Samsara in 21:38.38NES Battletoads (USA) by feos & MESHUGGAH in 11:04.72NES Battletoads (USA) by Phil & Genisto in 13:27.98NES Battletoads (USA) by nesrocks in 24:57.47
I removed branches, because all the info they have is also present in their movie classes. Looks helpful? Nope.
It's impossible to reflect them in the simplest form when you have 2 camps with contradicting labeling preferences, tons of variations of branches, up to 5 branches per game, new branches appearing every year, and if the site grows, even more branches per game potentially.
It's only equivalent to any% until a major skip glitch is found. And only for this game. For other games, any% is equivalent to other goals. As mentioned in the first post of this thread, if we always drop the label of any%, and label all other branches, it ends up in unmanageable nightmare.
But why "kills" is not a branch? Because it uses a mechanic that's so common that we consider it default. Similarly, "jumps, runs" are standard mechanics in speedruns. We already imply them. But for any mechanic that can become a new branch, we add a label.
Not so long ago Memory asked me, why don't we consider 1p and 2p internal goals in SMB and why don't we label them. Here's the answer I came up with:
"Warps" is not a default goal, because "warpless" is also really common, and not every game has warps. Same with "1 player" and "2 players". We already discussed this in details in this thread.
I explained above why we can't leave all the fastest branches without labels.
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I already suggested that on IRC, a huge part of this thread clearly belongs to the "Arguments regarding arguing" topic. Too bad it's locked.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.