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SmashManiac wrote:
I was thinking more in the lines of flagging a publication with a warning only when someone reports an issue that is confirmed valid by a judge, maybe through a dedicated forum or something like that.
This is still exactly what I argued against: it requires explicit rejudging, and it can result in reports flood. The only practical benefit I see is encouraging TASers to obsolete such movies. But I would say the cost is way to high.
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SmashManiac wrote:
I agree, but preventing such submissions because they require additional code analysis seems a bit extreme to me. Just my two cents.
Please list games that have 100% abuse-proof rerecording system that we explicitly prevent submissions of.
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Let my personal opinion not get in the way of productivity. I'll post basic info in the ticket you opened there. If their TAS support ends up being sufficient, we might make it an accepted emulator, at least for testing purposes (otherwise how will their TAS features get thorough testing, right?).
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Oh come on, just look at the list of supported hardware and software. DOSBox is a hack of a hack of a hack of legacy code of spaghetti code of code translator. Of course there can be aim for more accuracy... compared to no accuracy. But seriously, when the piece of host hardware is emulated as a whole, the games just run as intended. And not only games. When you're working with a dead code-base, there's not a lot of things you can achieve before getting sick of it.
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Hello. Please check out this thread instead:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20206
DOSBox (and, inherently, all its derivatives) is a disgusting useless piece of garbage compared to PCem, and PCem is the thing that is planned to be added to Bizhawk in the near future.
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Nice routing with all the warp tricks this time! Really impressive. Perfect warp spawns depend on the background, and the background can be manipulated to spawn sooner, just awesome abuse of this stupid mismatch between layout and BG/music.
Since warpless for this game now means completing as much as the game provides, and it's finally known to be longer than warped, warpless is also a vaultable category for this game.
The only thing to check would be whether the layout really repeats after this movie ends.
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This game can't be tased for real yet, but if it works on PCem, it has all the chances to become available for bizhawk in the near future. IIRC, it does work there.
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Challenger wrote:
Challenger wrote:
Probably I can finish in a few days. ;)
And nearly a week has passed...
I ended finding much more improvements than I expected. So, probably I'll finish this on next week or two. I saved more than 400 frames until now. ;)
How is it going?
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I wasn't answering that question, just clarified our reasons.
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Just to point out why we're suggesting this:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#GamesWithAdditionalLevelSetsOrGames"Playing a single episode or individual game to completion, or all episodes or games, is considered game completion."http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#ObsoletingAPublishedMovie"Movies for all games or episodes inside a multi-game or multi-episode game can obsolete individual movies that only play a single game or episode within the game. This is assuming that the combined movie surpasses all the individual movies that it is trying to obsolete."
The manual makes case 5 stand out as the only case that puts an end to the crimes this bad guy does, which is why I considered it full completion for this game, but since its gameplay is different from the other 4 cases, having all 5 in one movie is the best option.
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Yes please.
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Imagine we agreed to have a workflow for marking invalid movies. In order to determine their validity, we have to check them against all the existing rules. Basically, we have to rejudge them.
Now imagine having to rejudge everything after every rule change.
Now imagine that every day some dedicated person suggests old movies for rejudgment that they see as "probably not valid anymore check please".
Do we really have so many spare judges that have nothing else to do than checking every retroactive rule break 24/7?
To quote IRC:
16:43 <feos> now imagine someone ragequits over that post
16:45 <adelikat> speaking of ragequit, imagine if you unpublish someone's movie based on a rule change after the fact
16:45 <feos> oh yeah
16:45 -*- feos looks at circus charlie
16:46 <feos> but really
16:46 <feos> figuring our circus charlie publication is invalid involved fucking disasm
16:47 <feos> by all means let us start doing disasm just to make sure that no, some 15 year old movie is actually fine, we were mistaken by suspecting it
And I'm not even talking about all the unvaultable branches that were published because they got great votes, but then rating humiliated them. Rejudge from scratch just to say "sorry, we think this movie is invalid because the audience tricked us with their borderline feedback apparently".
All sorts of insanity, when it comes to actually unpublishing things.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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TiKevin83 wrote:
I also wanted to mention, I think it's important to look at the inverse of the problem presented here. If a new movie were to be submitted that is faster but relies on inaccurate emulation and does not play back on console, it would violate existing rules about taking advantage of emulation inaccuracy.
Not exactly. Relying on an emulator bug, where some trick in the game is only ever possible with that bug (see the recent discussion about VC Ocaria of Time) is one thing. Allowing a trick that in principle works on console, just has slight difference in timing or outcome (Post #465348) is another. We are fine with the latter.
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Maybe your config got corrupted? Always unzip each bizhawk version to its own folder.
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If such movies are hidden by being obsoleted by Grue (see Moth's link), then they aren't annoying anyone. Which means they will never be properly improved. Never sounds a bit less optimistic than after 15 years, doesn't it?
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To TiKevin83.
Yeah, we need to discuss all the other options as well. If eventually resyncs are not allowed, we'd have to think about other options anyway, so why not now? Also, proper discussion helps to remove all the noise from the problem, so in the end we can come up with a simple list of points anyone could assess without having to read everything from start to end.
What I see here so far is our need to acknowledge accomplishments that happen on the TAS scene. This is why I think your case is identical to the Demo tier question.
As dwangoAC said yesterday in the GDQ thread, not allowing those accomplishments to be represented among regular movies feels like we don't really care about them. On the other hand, us caring about them doesn't magically turn into us accepting those movies. As I said, the entire staff crew needs to be convinced. Which is why we would need to come up with simple, obvious, logical, and compelling points.
I'll ponder your actual post later.
andypanther wrote:
I have to disagree with your position on this, feos. We should accept new movies as an improvement based on better accuracy alone, this motivates people to improve this aspect of TASing. The idea that "we don't know if this better accuracy is perfect accuracy, so it can't be counted" just seems plain wrong, for the same reasons why I disagree with the rule for vaultable highscore runs having to have 100% proof that they can't be improved. You can never proof something is 100% perfect, such proof should never be required. We don't follow this mindset for normal speed records, so why in these instances?
And of course, there's also the problem with TASes that are optimized to SMB1-levels, we should be able to replace those movies if necessary, even if no gameplay improvement is found.
I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying it's something entirely new that we never did before. And I'm saying that policy-wise, it's seen as moot right now. If we want to convince people that it should be introduced, we should make it not moot. Which includes discussing all the other scenarios, and all the other reasons to acknowledge the TAS scene achievements.
We obviously can have a rule "movies that are neither time nor entertainment improvements can be accepted to obsolete if they feature accuracy improvements", but reasons to introduce such a rule are so far unclear.
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Overall, I still think that the message of the site is highlighting optimization as a thing in itself. Another thing we highlight is entertainment value of the resulting product. Of course we heavily depend on emulator accuracy. But in cases when neither entertainment, nor optimality has improved, accepting such a movie means highlighting accuracy alone, as a thing in itself, which would be something entirely new.
Again, this was always important for us. But accuracy is not what a movie can achieve. This is a side job, it's done by emulator coders. You can not "TAS accuracy".
You can arguably compete in accuracy by tweaking movies. But like Battletoads showed, some things are just non-deterministic by nature, so perfect accuracy is impossible for movies. And better accuracy is not always real: a movie might get closer to console sync by working around some problem, but the problem itself is still there.
In Battletoads, the RNG routine runs during all the idle CPU time, and tweaking the startup state looked like it helped with sync, but in fact, the movie remained non-deterministic and only synced by coincidence. DwangoAC had to hack the replay method really hard in order to replay the "game end glitch" movie on HRDQ.
This yet again boils it down to "better accuracy" rather than "perfect accuracy". Console sync can be a coincidence too. So console sync can not be our "thing in itself" that we want to highlight independently.
Which brings us to the same problems the Demo tier met: anything that we can not unambiguously verify as optimized and/or entertaining replay file, is moot when it comes to accepting a movie of it. See I'm not saying it's anything bad. But after all these years, there's zero consensus about what a Demo tier really needs to be: all staff members disagree, even the advocates of it disagree with each other. Lack of consensus is what can be bad. Lack of consensus is what I mean by "moot". We can talk about our ideas for several pages and still not advance.
Even that is not the final verdict, and maybe we can have a consensus here. But usually, it takes a direction or a problem obvious to everyone, and only then people can agree on something. When the problem or the direction is not so clear, it's barely possible to promote policy changes.
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TiKevin83 wrote:
Allow resyncs when a movie is to replace another movie from the same author(s). This sounds quite reasonable in any event; what's to prevent an author from retracting their old runs before submitting the new one to circumvent the resync designation? Unless you can't retract a run from the site.
Right, when talking about the author's decision to update their movie, there's still a valid question "Why?" that we need to have an answer to.
The judge guidelines talk about avoiding meaningless publications since 2006. We had no reason to retract that requirement because it's always been a valid one. It just happens to be a bit vague, and it hasn't changed a lot since then. So the judges keep this in mind and always ask themselves, as well as the authors, why exactly do we need to publish a given movie.
This movie we have here still answers "because it now syncs on console". You don't state that in the paragraph I quoted, you just mention the author's wish as the first reason. But the author has made a submission, so obviously they want a movie to be replaced. The very fact that a movie has been submitted can't be a reason to accept it. Therefore there has to be a more fundamental reason.
The third reason is along the lines of "closer to being replayed on console". So overall, all we have is "better accuracy".
TiKevin83 wrote:
Allow resyncs when a known improvement is made to a core as opposed to resyncs across cores. This could tie resyncs to improvements in hardware knowledge better.
I don't know what's bad about resyncing across cores if they are comparable. I don't know what's better about resyncing within the same core as it gets better. This reason might justify resyncing a run after every new release when the core was tweaked to (supposedly) become more accurate. I don't think any of us aims for allowing that.
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Supporting custom rerecording workflows that only work on the per-game basis is not only extra coding, but also a whole new platform that needs to be verified against all sorts of abuse. In emulators, we can guarantee that no abuse happens. In internal replay formats, like Doom, not so much. Some games use replay systems that are absolutely unacceptable for us due to what they allow internally.
Right now we all hope that Linux games become TASable with libTAS.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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What to do with them is a valid question, but can you start with listing the pros and cons that you have in mind, that make it clear to you that we ought to do something about this?
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"Then"? If their gameplay is unique compared to Case 5, they can still be published separately. Checking how different it is will need to be done for each of the 4 cases.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
What we see here is an example of a movie that can't really be called a meaningful tool-assisted record.
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#MustBeClearlyDefinableAsAGameWhichHasAchievableGoals
http://tasvideos.org/Vault.html#TechnicalRequirements