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It's a Moons-only branch so it needs to be different enough from existing ones. If it's not, it either obsoletes Simon or has to be rejected (feedback is really lacking so far, even tho the run is very well made).
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Samsara wrote:
They're all related, but different enough to warrant the usage of separate categories in my opinion. Both zipping and the death glitch allow you to go out of bounds, but death glitch allows for a lot more freedom in where you can go. Basically, loading certain "rooms" out of bounds will crash the game, which limits how powerful zipping is as you're always going through room transitions. Death glitch completely disables room transitions, allowing for essentially unimpeded map traversal, including through OoB areas that would otherwise crash the game since they're not being loaded.
Death glitch and zipping are both used in the published "all souls" movie, where Kriole's movie avoids them completely, and the routes differ drastically between the two runs.
Sounds like we want to resurrect it as "all souls, inbounds", with that label, so it's clear that it's a special limitation? Are there other branches avoiding OOB? And how does the warp glitch compare to those 2 other glitches?
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Movement is very different from [2455] GBA Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance "Simon, Boss Rush, Hard" by Robert_Ordis in 07:51.27, but bosses are killed in a very similar way and die almost instantly, and that's basically all this mode has. While it's cool to showcase Simon, I don't know if these two movies are different enough to co-exist in the end. Will need much more feedback that there currently is!
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Fortranm wrote:
That being said, if ending sequence disruption is permitted for games where the ending doesn't even update the save file, shall [2725] SNES Final Fantasy VI by keylie & KadMony in 3:11:39.46 be moved to be branchless with the current branchless movie rebranched to be "glitchless" or something similar if applicable?
This is assuming the ending sequence of FF6 on SNES isn't meant to have effects. I don't know enough about this game to tell if that's the case.
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If you randomly hack the save file and make the result mandatory for a movie sync, that sounds like simply submitting a video file with no explanation how to recreate it. Even if you can't get a certain save file directly from gameplay, there should be some description on how exactly to tweak it so it makes the movie sync. Game genie codes are just strings of text and can be preserved in a bunch of ways, for example directly put into submission description. Completely unrecreatable save files can't be pasted as text. And there's even little to verify whether it's worth accepting (by a team of game mods) because you don't even know what is there and what was changed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Is it still available anywhere?
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duuuuude5 wrote:
It allows for movies that break site rules but are still very entertaining, such as freeruns/glitch showcases, or also movies that start from a hacked, unverifiable save file or use game genie codes to create interesting or funny gameplay.
By unverifiable do you mean unreproducible? If you can't explain how you got that save and it just has to be preserved or the run would desync, that sounds like a bad thing to allow.
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Fortranm wrote:
But what if the 2 versions end up obsoleting each other and there is no "active" NES movie left?
It definitely will be messy to "label each arcade machine differently", but there are only so many that are based directly on a home console that is well-emulated enough so it will be far from doing it for each arcade engine. Moreover, as most of the games, at least in the case of VS. (and PlayChoice-10), are directly based on games from the corresponding home console, it is much more likely for one who looks for movies of those games to check the home console movie list page first.
How many of those games are actually identical between Arcade and NES?
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jlun2 wrote:
I agree, but at the same time I really hope this doesn't lead to some games basically with no full game TAS and only individual level ones (with perfect RNG that would otherwise not be possible if full run due to luck manip time loss).
I think having a lot of IL submissions makes a full run more probable, and better, compared to having ILs banned.
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"no clips" sounds very good, but I still need to watch the current 2 movies. The current pub would be a weak Moon until a "no clips" submission happens and obsoletes it. Crash41596 what do you think?
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Posted!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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jlun2 wrote:
Maybe make a new category for communities of that game to judge themselves? Most of the games have very little community, so this problem would be concentrated on a relatively small number of franchises.
If one game community wants to accept a flood of meme runs while another doesn't, probably just let them decide.
Agreed. If it's just a platform for community content, let that community handle it.
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Arcade machines have a lot of variations and some of them are similar to home consoles, but labeling each arcade machine differently will result in complete mess IMO. Having all VS games as Arcade makes the most sense to me, and then they can be linked from the NES version runs.
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This is clearer indeed, and I don't have enough gaming outlook to recall games where the main menu has tweaks to the same global mode. I'm afraid there may be, and since we're switching from hard rule based approach to guideline based, it's better to have some helpful list of things defining the spirit of our rule: things that make a mode make sense to be its own branch regardless. Things to look for when we're not exactly sure. Things that make it obvious it's a separate mode. Known example is when a mode is a separate level set.
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arkiandruski wrote:
In short. I don't believe Dragon Gate Glitch by itself is enough to warrant a new branch, but Dragon Gate Glitch plus the skips mentioned in the previous paragraph would be.
Is there a way to unite them under some common name? Major skip glitch has to be a single technique that skips a lot, rather than many different ones that skip a bit.
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Samsara wrote:
If we reject that theoretical TAS, it has to be with sound, agreeable reasoning that the author agrees with as much as we do.
This is incredibly true! How else are we ever gonna inspire people to make better movies? Only by showing them a better path towards their own goal!
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ikuyo wrote:
I think this problem ultimately solves itself because it has to be justified in video submissions. As in "you can submit whatever you want, just be prepared to explain it and make it interesting for judges".
The discussion is about allowing all modes for Standard. I don't think it's a good idea to make acceptability depend on how well an author can explain it. That doesn't feel appropriate for "common, objective goals" that should be "as objective as possible". I don't even know what the spirit of the rule would be, so I won't be able to direct the conversation in case people have contradicting opinions.
FitterSpace wrote:
This is how I've always thought about it. I feel that the workbench does a good job of filtering out bad or uninteresting submissions already, without worrying about movie rules. In general, I think rules about the content of a TAS should be less restrictive so there are more good TASes being submitted and accepted to the site. But if a TAS in the workbench is too similar to a published one, people will be quick to point that out no matter what the rules say. So I don't think there needs to be a rule about that because the audience will decide anyway if it's not interesting or different enough for the site.
Then I don't see the reason to exclude character choice from allowed goals. But again, we can't allow all modes for standard and then say "actually we'll be deciding fully from feedback what is actually acceptable, every time". One of the fundamental problems with Vault and tiers in general that led to revamping the entire system to depend on feedback less is that it's VERY hard to get enough definitive feedback every time it's needed. And people who can be convinced to post still don't represent opinion of the entire community, so next year the feedback on the same situation can be completely different because different people happened to be around.
Tiers were replaced with classes to mitigate the "borderline hell" situation, when people just can't agree on something that in general makes sense. But whether or not something makes sense still has to be decided on a more generic level, only then it will make sense to accept it without unnecessary scrutiny.
Personally I can't say that blindly accepting all modes makes sense to me. And only accepting those that get feedback agreement, means it doesn't feel like an obvious and popular, standard goal.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If there's no savestates then how do you redo?
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ViGadeomes wrote:
I took my time to think about it and used as a basis the definition that we can find in french here.
This is my proposition to define a game mode :
game modes are the different ways the user can choose to play from the menu before starting to play.
Depending on the context, it can designate the number of simultaneous players or the type of gameplay sought (when the game offers a choice).
This fix the problem of fighting games but can maybe also add the difficulty choice problem in the discussion... This is only a WIP and this needs some discussions and feedback.
Difficulty, as well as all sorts of options like game speed, colors, audio. What if some option allows a high number of variants of the same stat? Do we allow every variant? On top of every other variant of every other option?
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ViGadeomes wrote:
feos wrote:
How many currently published movies have this NMG extension alongside the goal that has major skips?
I don't think we can use as an argument movies that are already published on the site as it is irrevelant to the discussion because :
It's relevant to the discussion about goals allowed for the Standard class, because the nature of the class is allowing common and objective (basically standard) goals:
MovieRules wrote:
Standard class houses a majority of the movies on the site. It contains speedrun records with common, objective goals. Goal choice should be as objective as possible.
ViGadeomes wrote:
First, we need to define a context where the NMG full completion could apply :
- A game where a Major-Skip Glitch is known
- The use of this Major-Skip glitch in a context of full completion doesn't go in conflict with the full completion goal itself.
For the second point above, I mean by this that I don't see a "all levels" run where this is the only way to define full completion to be using a Major-skip glitch. So the fastest "all levels" run which respects the full completion rules (that I mostly agree with) is without the use of this major-skip glitch as most of the full completion TASes on the site.
It is then irrevelant to take as conter-example movies where full completion is in conflict with the use of a Major-Skip glitch.
So there isn't a lot of movies where a Major-Skip glitch and full completion could apply.
feos wrote:
MNG full completion is being considered for the future. The question about it and your other suggestion is, is it a standard goal at this point? Is it common, popular, clear, obvious?
In the context eplained above, I think NMG full completion is a standard goal and that it is common, popular, clear and obvious. Both of thesegames are a good example of this if we do a NMG full completion in them.
If it was common and popular, then we'd have a lot of movies of it in Moons, and a lot of movies of it rejected (or obsoleted) for not being entertaining enough.
To put it differently, can't we just unobsolete those that didn't have the MSG and have them in Moons?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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We'll need documentation on how it all works and what it can do. The more detailed the better.
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I'm getting this with latest firefox:
And I can't open it in Opera or Chrome at all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
And I can't open it in Opera or Chrome at all.