Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
Radiant wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
(Although I must admit, I'm going to miss seeing the root maze in the final run.)
That's a good reason to do a 100% run then :)
I thought the same thing!
Radiant wrote:
I'm hoping I can blow the whistle and immediately leave the screen and come back to have the hole in the boulder without having to watch the animation of the beast arriving.
Yes, that should work.
It does!
I've worked my way back to the shuttle sequence. I'm typing stuff in the command line that I hope will be entertaining...but no spoilers.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
OK, I'm officially cancelling this run.
Disabling the distress beacon does allow Roger to get beyond the big tree screen without the goon showing up.
Also, after trying various means for around 1.5 hours, I was FINALLY able to accomplish the bog-monster glitch without using berries. (Although I must admit, I'm going to miss seeing the root maze in the final run.)
Now I've got to explore whether the puzzle or leaving/exiting is faster than for the terror beast.
Radiant wrote:
...or maybe not since you cannot blow the whistle from within the water.
You can blow the whistle from the water, but you can't throw the puzzle.
I'm hoping I can blow the whistle and immediately leave the screen and come back to have the hole in the boulder without having to watch the animation of the beast arriving. (Wishful thinking? We'll see.)
Then on to the asteroid.
I have an idea for the shuttle sequence.
Thanks everyone for the input...keep it up!
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
c-square wrote:
Looks like I'm not going to have time to work on this until the weekend, but I'll keep you posted. Or feel free to go ahead without me if you don't want to wait. Though it looks like you may have some tasks on hand already polishing your SQ2 run, which was great BTW.
No problem...I think we've accomplished quite a bit in a very short amount of time as it is.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
Radiant wrote:
Oh, and if you're considering cancelling this, I should mention that Roger's random movement in the first room can probably be manipulated by setting the system time.
Yep, I can confirm this...<sigh>
EDIT: Interestingly, after testing about 30 various initial RTC times, I cannot find a position that results in Roger triggering the airlock any sooner. It may still be possible, though I don't believe that it would save more than a couple frames.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
Radiant wrote:
Something else that came to mind.
Almost all words in the game have synonyms, sometimes lots of them, and sometimes really weird ones. On the one hand this means that several commands can probably be typed shorter; however I don't think that's actually going to save time (however, 'lever' is a synonym for 'throttle' in case it helps). On the other hand, if you have extra time, it does mean that you can type in commands in the most ridiculous way possible.
For instance, instead of "get keycard", "swipe every credit card" is a valid input. "Put keycard in slot" can be written as "fill credit card from slot machine". A next command may be "press inside from first airlock". "Get up please, rock me now" is recognized. And so forth. It's silly, but if it wastes no time... :D
In the final version, I'll definitely consider rewording commands when extra frames aren't necessary to accomplish it. I believe there's a limited number of key presses allowed for text input per frame, but I never counted it.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
The BEST part about this website is the willingness of others to help! And apparently I don't know this game as well as I thought I did. Thanks to both of you for your input.
While some may claim this submission was premature, I wouldn't have figured out these potential improvements on my own.
Radiant wrote:
To confirm your suspicions, it is not possible to navigate the maze without the gem; Roger can't move until you are able to see something.
Thanks for the confirmation.
Radiant wrote:
Some suggestions... disabling the alarm on the crashed shuttle alters the timer for the other shuttle in the room with the two big trees. This means you can possibly skip him entirely by disabling the alarm, saving some time. Once the Labion terror beast is present, you can deal with him by leaving the room to the left and reentering; he'll be gone; this may be faster than tossing the puzzle, or maybe not since you cannot blow the whistle from within the water. Finally, when the escape pod robot starts chasing you, you can hide out in the tunnel you came from, instead of the tunnel to the far right. This may be faster too?
I'll check into these things. At the given speed setting, I couldn't get back into the cracked tunnel to hide without the robot catching me.
FractalFusion wrote:
The items in the locker are not necessary to complete the game. The're are alternate solutions for the Labion Terror Beast and the platform guard on the next screen. It is unknown which strategy is faster.
What is the other solution for the terror beast? The puzzle is the only one I know of and I can't find anything on another option.
FractalFusion wrote:
You don't need to get the keycard off the dead guard at the crashed hovercraft. I think it is faster to get the keycard from the platform guard if you stone him, especially in your TAS where he falls right in front of the door (if you lure him down, you don't even need a keycard).
I assumed (but will admit that I didn't test) that luring the guard would be longer than stoning him. As far as getting a keycard, the crash-site guard's can be gotten without movement modification making it an easy pickup. It would likely take extra movement inputs and time to get it off the guard by the elevator due to the 3 frame movement/input cycles.
FractalFusion wrote:
By taking advantage of a glitch, you can enter the deep part of the swamp before the monster gets you.
I thought this was the case as well, but I couldn't get it to work...I'll revisit this idea. Maybe I can shorten this run.
FractalFusion wrote:
I think there are fun things you could have done during this sequence, without slowing down the TAS.
You're right...I'm still new enough to TASing that I don't always think about how to entertain during these kind of sequences.
FractalFusion wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
He also briefly stumbles into a unisex bathroom
About that, since you came from the right side of the screen, you could have entered the right door and exited the left, instead of entering and exiting the left door.
It actually took more movement inputs to do that and made taking the extra distance to the left door faster. Again this was the 3 frame movement/input cycle's fault.
FractalFusion wrote:
it is possible to make it to the end of the game before the salesman launch timer runs out....
I hadn't even considered this as a possibility...it would definitely save time if indeed possible.
FractalFusion wrote:
About the oxygen mask and the tube glass cracking sequence: If the game is on a fast enough speed like "fastest", I think it is possible to make it to the door after the cracking occurs but before the game kills you off.
I'll have to check on this. Roger's motion is stopped when the tube starts to crack. I think I tried moving him again before it finished, but couldn't. I didn't try surviving without the mask though.
FractalFusion wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
Unable to both open a pod and enter before being caught, Roger must flee the robot.
This is why lower speeds exist. It should be possible to "press button" then quickly "go pod" in time, without having to flee the robot. If not possible on "fastest", it should be done on "fast".
The robot always got to me before the pod door was open far enough to enter, but I will look into this more using your suggestion of a slower setting.
FractalFusion wrote:
Speaking of "fastest" being hard to control, I'm not sure why the input fps is set so low. On PC, you should be capable of an input fps of 1000 at least. IIRC the last time I used JPC-rr, I think there was a way to change the input fps.
Um...I'm not even sure what you mean here. If you're referencing the 3 frame input cycle, I believe the situation is game related not emulator related.
ANYWAY...It looks like I have more testing to do on this run....should I cancel this submission?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
c-square wrote:
Can you search for an increment or decrement to v6? Also, how do you search in multiple files?
I'll do a deeper search as soon as I can.
I don't search multiple at once. I just did a basic search for "v6 " and hit F3 a bunch of times bouncing between logic files.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
c-square wrote:
I haven't been able to find when v6 gets set and when it gets changed. If someone has time, could you find out what causes v6 to become 0?
Ok, I did a quick search of rooms up through the skimmer sequence for places where v6 is directly written.
The only thing I can find is in LOGIC.024 which is Orat's cave.
if (isset(f30)) {
reset(f30);
set(f43);
print("\"What have we here?\"");
v6 = 0;
stop.motion(o0);
program.control();
v64 = 5;
cycle.time(o1,v64);
set.view(o1,128);
set.cel(o1,0);
erase(o0);
end.of.loop(o1,f31);
v30 = 2;
}
"What have we here?" is displayed when Orat catches Roger. So unless there is another place where v6 gets a value of 0, it appears that a death is necessary to accomplish this. That also assumes that nothing else changes v6 between Orat killing you and reaching the skimmer sequence.
I did not search for situations where v6 may be written as part of a function like a random(min,max,v) command.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
c-square wrote:
Wow.. I have even more respect for your run now, DrD2k9. That skimmer sequence is a real pain! I've made it through a couple times, but sometimes get stuck in situations where, no matter what I do, I get hit by a rock.
One thing I noticed was that in your run, you were able to do small movements and stop in the middle. How did you do that? I'm finding I can only go all the way over to one side or all the way over to the other. I can't stop in the middle or do short adjustments.
Movement control at 'Fastest' speed is generally insane in this game. The key is using the number pad for directional inputs. Normally Roger will take 3 steps (frames) in a given direction before changing directions regardless of which of the 3 frames the new direction key is pressed. This includes pressing the same directional button to stop moving. HOWEVER, pressing '5' on the number pad halts Roger's movement on the frame pressed and doesn't wait for the 3 frame cycle to end. Thankfully this trick also works in the skimmer sequence, allowing you to stop motion at any desired frame.
Without this stop-movement input it would be impossible to complete the game at 'fastest' speed because the 3 frame cycle would force Roger to jump off cliffs constantly.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
Radiant wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
I'll see what I can do tonight about looking through the path of rooms up to the skimmer and see which ones call the random function.
It strikes me you don't have a lot of choice in your route, though.
In the Arcada, you start in logic 2, which calls random() once but doesn't act on it if it's the first time in the room.
West to logic 1, which has no randomness. The scientist is on a timer.
West to logic 4, which calls random() again upon entry. As long as you're on the top floor, you're safe. There's a 21% chance of a patrol appearing on the bottom; it may be fun to manipulate this happening, because many players don't know that this can occur.
West to logic 3. No randomness. Grab keycard, return to 4.
Logic 4 again. Turns out that if you come from the west on the top floor, no encounters can happen.
East to logic 2 again. By the current pathing, a guard appears but you make it to the elevator before he does. This has a 50% chance of happening.
Elevator to logic 5, which also calls random() upon entry. By the current pathing, you have to wait for the guard to leave. He has a 50% chance of showing up, so this could easily be manipulated away. It is notably the first point where randomness matters.
East to logic 6, which has no randomness.
East to logic 7, which again has a 50% chance for the guard to show up. And after that, you're clear.
Now let me check on the spider droid. It strikes me that on Kerona you don't really have a choice of paths either.
This is what I meant when I said I'd trace the path. Thanks for doing it for me.
No there isn't much choice of paths anywhere in the game.
Bummer it appears that we can't avoid the spider. Do you think we could we delay it's arrival until we get to the east portion of the mesa? If so, I wonder if the dialogue would show up if we made it underground before the spider lands and sprouts legs.
Radiant wrote:
A thought. Would it be interesting to make a 100% run of this game, by which I mean full score? In this particular game it doesn't require a lot of detours. I think you just need to grab the cartridge in the second room, use it in the alien nest, drop the rock on the spider, and talk to a few Sariens while in disguise, and you'd be at max score. This also gives you the good ending, i.e. your planet doesn't die at the end.
I don't know that it would be much more interesting than an 'any%', but I can see it being a valid run for vault purposes.
Another option for 100% could be killing the spider droid and orat at the same time. If the spider droid is led into orat's cave, it kills him instead of you. I believe that the point values are equal. So if the minimum time to spawn the spider is short enough to spawn him before entering the cave, it could be done this way.
It would come down to comparing time necessary to lead the spider to the cave, vs. the time necessary for the spider to walk to the kill point via boulder.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
c-square wrote:
Okay, I think we can work with this. Initially I thought this was bad because the rock countdowns are random, meaning when the next random call is made is random. However, that second part saves us because we can control whether or not random gets called for the shadow, simply by choosing to move or not move. I'll try another POC with the skimmer to see if it's possible to target ending at an exact seed value.
I'll see what I can do tonight about looking through the path of rooms up to the skimmer and see which ones call the random function.
If we could somehow get the run to avoid all guards on the Arcada, movement would not need delayed as it currently is for one guard.
Also if it's possible, preventing the spider droid from appearing on Kerona, would also save time as a dialogue box would be eliminated.
On another note, how do we change the initial time for JPC-rr?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
Radiant wrote:
So from 47 seconds to about 1.5? Awesome!
With a poked seed value.
We'll still have to work out the best approach with either the current save or a new run using a new Initial RTC Time setting.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
So an Initial Seed of 2. Yields some promising return values around the 586th seed through the roughly 820th seed.
This assumes that the 586 random calls doesn't change much. with a new RTC time and initial seed.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
Radiant wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
214 for the ship. 36 for the droid.
Is that including the coupon?
I believe so. I think it's like 44 or 45 without the coupon.
c-square wrote:
Okay, I've got my first proof of concept done.
SUCCESS!
c-square wrote:
The big trick now is, how can you do the run to ensure you get to the slot machine with the right seed value loaded up?
I don't think it's worth trying to manipulate initial seed to land on a good number when entering the slots.
Isolating an initial seed that will yield a list of return values with a high percentage in the 3-16 range (actual wins with monetary increase) may be beneficial.
c-square wrote:
In the end, this route costs 70 frames in RNG manipulation:
That's a whole lot less time lost than in my original!
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
With the judgement of 'delayed' for the BIOS situation; I'm going to cancel this submission and re-submit with a new run using the new BIOS settings (Text is legible).
We're also making pretty good progress on determining the RNG for the slot machine, so I anticipate improvements there as well.
Keep your eyes open for the new submission over the next couple weeks!
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
Also, Have we confirmed that the return values in my spreadsheet are correct for the slots when determining v64 for a spin? I haven't had a chance.
EDIT: I'm thinking my math on the return value is incorrect. I'm not getting the spins I expect based on the seed value. Could either of you write a better return value formula for the spreadsheet (or figure out why I'm not matching up, if the math is correct)?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
c-square wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
$250
214 for the ship. 36 for the droid.
Great, and we start with $30 to play with.
Looks like there's a nice set of values close together starting around seed value 4319. That means if we can start the game off with a seed of one of the following values, we should be able to cut down the slot section significantly:
63832 - 10 rng numbers for manipulation
40825
37734
48559
53668
32341
11154
53995
17584
59633 - 0 rng numbers for manipulation
I'm not sure I completely understand this...
If we choose a given initial seed and then guards need manipulated, won't changing it to a different initial seed also change whether or not guards may need manipulated?
Guards aren't hard to avoid at the speeds we're running. So if there's a tradeoff between being able to manipulate guards and getting the best initial seed for the slots; I'm leaning toward slots.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
$250
214 for the ship. 36 for the droid.
EDIT: If I remember correctly, if your last win on the slots would give you more than 250 the game sets your total buckazoids to 250.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player
(2088)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1026
Location: US
OK...more concrete info.
Use this savestate and do the following using a memory search program (Cheat Engine is what I used).
Let Roger enter the slot machine.
Enter 'Y' 6 times
search value 63453
enter 'Y' 1 more time
search value 39290
This should yield the agi_rand_seed memory address of the emulator...not the internal memory address.
You LUA smarter people may be able to use that info to find the internal memory address (which I'm guessing will be static internally).
