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Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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That's what I thought as well; things would be different if the subsequent drops only became available once their "unlock" condition was met, that is: The enemy's drop table is item 1, until you have three of them. Then the enemy's drop table becomes item 1 (3/5), item 2 (2/5) until you have two item 2s. Then the enemy's drop table becomes item 1 (3/6), item 2 (2/6), item 3 (1/6). Then the chances of getting the item in six drops is: 1 * 1 * 1 * 0.4 * 0.4 * 0.1666... = 2.6%
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Here's the answer to your question, Weegeechan: http://tasvideos.org/MoodAvatars.html Edit: Well, the "how it's done" part. The "why it's locked behind posts" part I don't have an answer to, but I suspect it's because users that stick around for a bit are less likely to, say, change all of their avatars to something inappropriate.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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andypanther: If the resultant playthrough is entertaining, then it can be published to Moons. The rules against Vaulting sports game speedruns is to prevent boring "bare minimum" completion scenarios, which are publishable under Vault rules in other genres of game.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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The difference between a human-powered speedrun and a TAS is that the human can fail, or will have to make judgments on the fly, whereas the TAS benefits from rewinding, memory state knowledge, and frame precision. These advantages are some of the reasons why sports games are considered trivial to complete under Vault conditions (quickest victory, etc.). How do you win at baseball optimally? Score ten runs and end the inning. How do you win at football optimally? Score one point and wind down the clock. How do you win at American Football optimally? Kick a field goal and wind down the clock. These would not be entertaining to watch, even with the rampant potential for AI misuse. The "Own goal?! SNES soccer TAS" that you make reference to (that I mentioned in my other post) is entertaining. It has entertaining qualities that go above and beyond the rules of football. You know that, you've watched it. It's actually fun to watch, and there's a "Wow!" factor beyond "yaaaay it's digital football". As to your comment about different games in the same family of a sport's games not necessarily being substantially different, tell me, did the rules of American Football change drastically between 1991 and 1992? I'm pretty sure that they didn't, so any simulation of the same is going to look similar, even if the player names and underlying stat numbers are slightly different from year to year.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
I'd like to add that these rules are for the Vault - the most basic completion goals available to the site. Nothing is preventing you from trying to make an entertaining video out of any of these games, the rule just specifies that less-entertaining runs of these games are ineligible for publication to the Vault. The site has a couple of really entertaining sports games published (not to the Vault): http://tasvideos.org/1118M.html and http://tasvideos.org/1438M.html come to mind.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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Well, unless there is a way to revert to a previous gamestate and supply (sub-)frame precise input, that's not going to be plausible.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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That's a really difficult question, and it depends entirely on the game. In order for something to be TASed, it needs a repeatable RNG (so that inputs don't desynch and can be played back on another machine) and re-recording tools (so that the TAS can be made). [There are probably other requirements, but those are the ones that come to mind.] If your web game has these things, then theoretically it should be TASable. I suppose it also needs a TASer, which requires the game to be interesting enough for someone to want to tackle it. That isn't a jab against your game, I promise, it's just something else that is required.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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I enjoyed that test run - getting run speed out of seemingly nowhere in a lot of places was interesting, the slow climb up Maridia's walls was amusing (but got old quickly, but I also realize there's nothing you can do), and there was some excellent use of shinespark copies to do damage to things. I did find the Ridley and Mother Brain fights to be tedious and boring though, partly because those fights drag on, but also because damage isn't applied as close as possible to the boss's face, so it looked like a regular good player fighting those two - stay away from the boss, charge and shoot at range, lather, rinse, repeat. I recognize that this is a test TAS, and I know that the final version will be polished, but I don't suspect that those two fights are going to get much faster, and they take up a significant portion of the run, which (to me) detracts from overall entertainment.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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There honestly isn't.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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I'm trying to debate your point by using the words you said and a counter-example where the exact same thing happens, to show you that (at least that part) is not indicative of a major glitch in a video game.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
I'll always see underflow as a major glitch because it Glitches the look of the Missiles and Super Missiles until Mother Brain hits you with a Hyper Beam.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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You're calling it a major glitch because it glitches out the display. I'm pointing out that the "major" display glitch is the exact same thing that happens when you get 10 lives in Super Mario Bros. Are you considering "getting 10 lives in Super Mario Bros." to be a major glitch?
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Player (178)
Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 546
Location: Toronto, Ontario
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Developer, Player (178)
Joined: 8/11/2011
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
Do you consider getting 10 lives in Super Mario Bros. a major glitch because it displays crown-0 lives? How about 50+ lives where it's crown-<tile> lives? Because that seems to be what's going on there.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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The most interesting thing about the possibility of Glitched RBO, to me, was total suggesting that MB would be defeated first. That, alone, piques my interest. I want to see that run one day.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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No, not at your expense. I asked Anty-Lemon (and a couple of others in the IRC channel) to proof the message so that my message came across, and I didn't sound like an ass.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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I'm formally apologizing here for the us/them statement that I made above. It was rash and poorly thought out, and reflects badly on my opinion of everyone, and of the site. I can't say that it won't happen again, but I will try to prevent it from happening again. Regarding the conversation(s) at hand, however 13% comes to bear, I look forward to it. My personal opinion and preference is that such a run include the (negative) overflow glitch, because ammo management isn't something that I notice in a TAS unless the ammunition runs out. I certainly don't want to see new branches come out for each potential route that emerges (even if one of those branches overshadows the others), and I can understand wanting to keep overflow out of contention of these branches because it (likely) would be a much faster path than the other forms of 13% (which is probably a solid argument for calling it a major glitch - among other similar runs, it renders them completely useless). With all of that said, I am excited about all of the work that is done by the people in the Super Metroid speedrunning community. I may not agree with your branches, but I like your tree.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Cpadolf, I will certainly admit to a large amount of frustration while writing that particular point; thank you for reading past it to the point of the message. I can definitely see the entertainment value behind 13% without using overflow, and I am certainly not opposed to people making those runs. My preference to seeing overflow used comes from the obvious speed advantage, and this site showcasing speedruns, which suggest using the fastest known techniques. I fully understand that some people consider this a cheat for low%, but I contend that in any other game's community, this would be a major find with incredible speed implications, and there wouldn't be any contention whatsoever, because managing ammunition isn't the most important part of the game, even though it is a large part of low%'s routing. It's a difference of opinion, absolutely, but I am interested in what the underlying cause of dissention is, beyond the ammo management argument.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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TheMG2 wrote:
You misunderstand me. I do not doubt that it has wow factor on it's own. I don't dislike such glitches in general. I just don't think that low% would be the best way to show such a glitch off.
Really? Because low% seems like the place where it would have the most impact. The two sides of this war are the people I most associate with the Super Metroid community shouting, "OMG it breakz teh gaem in teh worst way possible!!! Resource management is the most important part of Super Metroid speedruns!!! Nobody will want to watch this!!!" and the people I associate with viewers saying, "Actually, it's pretty cool, it doesn't appear to waste any time, and it's the sort of thing that a god player would do because it removes having to have monitor RNG for ammo drops, potentially leading to a crisper destroyed-game experience." There are people likening it to ACE (it's not) and people calling it a major glitch (but still using the term underflow, which is such a minor change it doesn't even affect the register the information is stored in), and I honestly think that what these people are most afraid of is change. Change from the developed route because using this glitch means that different choices could potentially be made. Change from the existing speedruns because suddenly super missiles are plentiful. Change because having such a powerful weapon available all of the time (well, ~65535 times) is going to demolish existing records. But demolishing records is what this site is about. Demolishing records is what makes one run sufficiently different from another and worth watching. Demolishing records is far more interesting than beating the record by a frame or two, because there's a huge change because of some find or another.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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It's overflow, not underflow. And TASing isn't normal play. TASing is about as far away from normal play as you can get.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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Overflow. And only if the distinction between non-glitched and glitched is made. "Uses/Avoids heavy glitch abuse" are two separate tags, and I don't see a problem with there being a fastest 13% without overflow, and a 13% with overflow. It's 13% PB-Speed, 13% PB-Ice, and 13% PB-X-Ray that I don't want to see different branches of, because /those/ are routing choices, not branches.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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Every game has a dynamic number of ways to beat it. For Super Metroid, that is every single combination of: 13%, 14%, 15%, 16%, 17%, 18%, 19%, 20%, 21%, 22%, 23%, 24%, 25%, 26%, 27%, 28%, 29%, 30%, 31%, 32%, 33%, 34%, 35%, 36%, 37%, 38%, 39%, 40%, 41%, 42%, 43%, 44%, 45%, 46%, 47%, 48%, 49%, 50%, 51%, 52%, 53%, 54%, 55%, 56%, 57%, 58%, 59%, 60%, 61%, 62%, 63%, 64%, 65%, 66%, 67%, 68%, 69%, 70%, 71%, 72%, 73%, 74%, 75%, 76%, 77%, 78%, 79%, 80%, 81%, 82%, 83%, 84%, 85%, 86%, 87%, 88%, 89%, 90%, 91%, 92%, 93%, 94%, 95%, 96%, 97%, 98%, 99%, and 100% that beats the game. And yes, I say "every combination of 100%" because you can collect all 100% items in different ways. And, that's assuming you plan out your route for each of those items and collect them in the most optimal manner. That doesn't even consider arbitrarily long routes where you maximize the distance between any two upgrades, for example. And THAT doesn't even consider wait times. There are literally an infinite number of ways to complete Super Metroid (or any other game). Allowing infinite combination on this site is a fool's errand, (or, as Samsara called it, suicide). The entire reason that branches exist, and the reason those branches are judged on optimality of route as determined by gameplay time (and not in-game time), is so that different types of gameplay following the same general rulesets can co-exist. Once again, nothing is preventing you from creating a TAS in your preferred niche category. Its ability to be published is determined by the judges here based on the site's category rules, not by the rules of the community that surround the game. (And, once again, it's overflow, not underflow.)
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean, lxx4xNx6xxl. What restrictions are you talking about? The categories that I see on the site are not that difficult to follow: 100%, any%, occasionally any% glitch, and now ACE. The contention about categories surrounds whether there should be multiple 14% (and soon 13%) branches, several of which are not the fastest 14% (soon 13%) runs, because of their item choices. A lot of the point of planning your run and aiming for the fastest time to completion is deciding which items you're going to acquire. By letting Super Metroid's community define the rules for TASVideos about which branches should exist, a lot of those rules about planning and fastest time go out the window. Nobody is preventing people from making their niche 14% (soon 13%) runs, but the point of the site is to showcase the fastest runs, given the considerations of route planning, itemization, and the like. If you want to do things the fastest, 13% should exist without item-based branches. That's the /point/ of there being branches. 13% <particular> defeats the entire purpose of having branches at all and sets a poor precedent for the rest of the site.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Invariel
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Joined: 8/11/2011
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Aran Jaeger wrote:
As core items, all those branches would have (Ball, Bombs, Varia, 3 Tanks, 2*M, 2*SM, 1*PB) to which the branch-defining (major) items are added, and it is to note that only in the 13%PB-X-Ray case, at least 1 R-Tank would be required.
That means that the real question becomes, "Can the ammunition overflow glitch be triggered with less than 2*M, 2*SM, 1*PB?" If it can, then whatever combination of items that requires is the true low% (ignoring ACE). As for separate 13% branches, I have to agree with Samsara that the fastest 13% should be the 13% branch, regardless of the items collected. The entire concept of pathing and item collection is what makes TASing competitive; by choosing to take an item that results in a slower run, you have not created a new branch, you have made a sub-optimal choice for the existing branch. [On a terminology note, you're talking about overflow and not underflow when you go from 0 to 255 or 0 to 32767. (Or 32767 to 0 or 255 to 0.) Underflow, Overflow]
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
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