That is a strange opinion. The TAS being somewhat entertaining doesn't count because the game is somewhat entertaining? Last I checked, players at this site strive to find games that make entertaining runs.
Let me clarify; it obviously counts and is a point in its favor, but should also not be confused with the added entertainment from a minimum button press run.
For instance, Morimoto's original SMB3 run is still wildly entertaining to this day, and would probably record a 9/10 Entertainment rating for me even now. However, that doesn't it mean it should be published, since it is both slower and less entertaining than the current run.
In the case of the minimum button press run, it's an entertaining movie (let's say 7.5/10) but considering how fun SMB3 TAS's are in general, should not be reason by itself to be accepted.
For me, the main problem is that it does not look sufficiently different from a normal speed run without the use of visual aids. If I were shown this video without knowing it was a minimum buttons pressed run and then asked what was unique about it, I wouldn't be able to tell you.
This is certainly more entertaining than the SMB1 run, but that's because SMB3 runs are generally more entertaining than SMB1 runs. SMB3 is an especially exciting game for speedruns.
Even without the minimal button presses, I'm sure that most people (myself included) can derive a lot of fun from a sub-13 minute speedrun. Another point is that if I wasn't told that there would be a minimal number of button presses in the movie, I would never have guessed from just watching it. Nor would it be nearly as entertaining without the DDR-style LUA script by the side.
Ultimately, I don't believe "minimal button presses" adds much to this TAS. It's fun because any half-way decent speedrun of SMB3 is fun.
No vote.
You are the one who has a giant problem with the TAS,
A quick glance at the voting results above shows that I'm hardly the only "one".
Abahbob wrote:
and you said that you could easily make a better one.
No, I never said this. What I did write was that
"The whole play-through looked like something I could cook up in 20-30 minutes with a couple of re-records here and there."
ie it looks unpolished, unskilled, and unimpressive.
Abahbob wrote:
I would very much like to see you make a better one. Go on and prove us all wrong.
This is comical. I made a statement stating that the game appears to lack the elements required for an entertaining TAS. It's YOUR job to prove this statement wrong, not my job to prove my own statement wrong.
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong". Logic and reasoning are clearly not your strong suits.
I don't miss the point: I clearly see that for some reason you trying to put your personal, subjective opinion on the game as an objective fact.
Of course it's my opinion. What else would it be? But I'm not going to put any qualifier on it. From my personal experiences playing it and even seeing the videos that feos linked, TMNT NES is a lousy, shitty mess with no depth or interest as a fighter.
By the way, I made a long post highlighting numerous problems with the TAS video. Game selection was just one of my points. Let's stop pretending that was the only or even main argument I made in my initial reply.
More importantly, I just don't think this is a good TAS. Rather than incessantly bitching about my opinion on the game overall, why don't you and the other fans of NES TMNT prove me wrong by making a cool TAS of the game?!
Clearly, fisker's video isn't it.
Shiru wrote:
I wonder how you manage to miss the fact that if it actually was a crappy game, you wouldn't even see neither this TAS in the first place, nor the defensive comments from few people in this thread.
This is hilarious. There are always defensive comments from people about whatever games, movies, or books they like, regardless of how shitty, brain-dead, or derivative the work is.
No, I wasn't aware there was a fanbase for NES TMNT, or that they would latch onto a single sentence I wrote like a bunch of angry babies with their diapers in a twist. No, I don't care if they like it or not. (And neither should they care what I think about it)
Few facts screwed again. NES TMNT TF was developed and first released in 1993.
Not according to Wikipedia, which states that 1994 was the release.
Shiru wrote:
First MK that had an actual combo system was MK3, released in 1995. Even if you count the thing that MK2 had as a combo system, it was released in 1993. So it was zero years after the first MK game that had a combo system in the best case.
Yes, MK2 obviously had a combo system, and was released in 1993.
Regardless, you're missing the point, which was that there WERE quality, popular fighters before 1993/1994 which had combo systems, reversals, and vastly deeper, superior gameplay to the lousy NES TMNT. If you're nitpicking MK, focus on the other, more relevant example; Street Fighter 2.
The World Warrior came out in 1991, and Super Turbo (again, widely considered the greatest fighting game ever, to this day) was released in the same year as NES TMNT, 1994.
feos wrote:
Ever heard of progress, you idiot?
Haha, this is so ironic coming from you! Yes, I have heard of progress, and it's precisely why I don't give NES TMNT bonus points simply for coming out on the NES. The bottom line is that it was on the NES, which was a horrible console for fighters. It sucked as a competitive, deep fighter, and was especially lousy compared to what else was out in 1994.
Your nostalgia and petulant, childish anger won't change this.
AnS wrote:
Watching feos' videos I haven't noticed such problem. No single degenerate strategy, but lots of unpredictable situations.
From this and other statements, I have gathered that you don't play fighting games much, nor know much about them. That's totally fine by itself, but it makes your posts towards me ridiculous.
If I'm someone who appreciates deep, competitive fighting games, and dislike NES TMNT because it isn't, who are you to tell me I'm "wrong"? Especially when you know so little about the fighting gaming genre?
AnS wrote:
My point is, this is not any fighter. Like many NES games, this is an experimental short with unique gameplay twist, similar to Technos' titles (River City Ransom, etc) that combine beat-em-up with some sports game features.
I think you're the first person who has ever claimed NES TMNT was not a fighter! You have two characters fighting one another, each with health bars. You have to win 2/3 rounds, and a round ends when one character's health bar runs out. That's a textbook fighter.
AnS wrote:
What should I see in this video? I see two well-trained players exchanging attacks in similar fashion to hundreds of 2D-fightings on arcades. I didn't see any novelty. It only proves that SNES version is a clone of a clone of a clone of Street Fighter 2. Then what's the point in learning all the attacks and combos of this particular clone? I guess the only point would be because it's based on the Turtles franchise.
Once again, if all you see is "two well-trained players exchanging attacks", you simply don't know much about fighting games. There was zoning, mix-ups, outstanding corner pressure, frame traps, and the inclusion of a super meter makes blocking much riskier than usual.
Incidentally, all those are elements mostly or completely lacking from NES TMNT.
AnS wrote:
I mentiond GG on purpose. The series is for nerds only. And for others its tool-assisted speedrun would be as entertaining as NES TMNT, which is: not much.
Only for nerds? If I were feos, I would throw a temper tantrum right now about how you insulted one of my parents.
But honestly, I don't even understand what that statement means. Only for nerds? Is that a good or a bad thing? What does it have to do with the game's quality?
AnS wrote:
And here goes the conclusion: complexity of a fighting game doesn't matter.
To you, who isn't even a fan of the genre. To me and millions of other players, they matter a lot.
Looks like you love being ridiculous, IronSlayer.It's like blaming Newton for not being able to invent a TV-set. "Freacking Newton sucked so much that he didn't use the techniques that appeared several hundred years after his death!"
What's common in a 16+ bit platform is simply impossible for 8 bit. Well, you also can blame developers for not adding a special chip to the cart, but it's (again) ridiculous.
What's your point, exactly?
16-bit fighting games exist. They have combo systems. They have reversals. They have way more animation frames than 8 bit fighting games do. (an extremely unpopular genre for a reason) They're deeper, more interesting, better games as a result. Yes, the inferiority of 8-bit fighting games has to do with the limitations of the hardware. No, this fact does not magically make the games better and more fun.
And the part about "several hundred years" is silly; NES TMNT was released in 1994, several years AFTER the first iterations of SF2 and Mortal Kombat, all of which had combo systems, reversals, and vastly superior quality in every way.
In fact, 1994 was the same year Super Turbo came out, to this day still widely considered the greatest fighting game ever. Pretending these were the Dark Ages for fighters is either disingenuous or ignorant.
What's missing frames? Are you talking about lag? Then you're wrong, there's no more lag than in Super Mario Bros.
No, not lag; the game simply has few animation frames (for attacking, blocking, hitstun, blockstun, etc.), which necessarily make the design space of the game much simpler and more primitive. That's simply a limitation of the NES.
AnS wrote:
It is not based on throws, it's just that throws are the fastest TASing tactic. When playing the game in real time, you won't be able to abuse throws that much, because the frame window for buttonpress is rather small.
I don't think you understood what I was saying. I mentioned tic throws. A tic throw is when you perform an attack (often a jab or short) to create a blockstun state for the opponent and take advantage by throwing them, as they can't recover in time.
Since NES TMNT has no reversals and few animation frames, this necessarily makes for a very braindead game with a degenerate strategy.
AnS wrote:
There's no combo system. Oh yes, and there's no fatalities and 2vs2 mode! And no other features common for modern fightings.
Fatalities and 2 vs. 2 are completely irrelevant to a fighting game's depth, strategy, and viability as an interesting title. However, the lack of a combo system, the most basic element of ANY FIGHTER, is.
You might as well argue that a platformer without jumping isn't missing anything significant. Yeah, you can find an exception here and there (Bionic Commando), but it's a massive missing piece which needs something really amazing and unique to make up for it.
Sadly, that's not the case for NES TMNT.
AnS wrote:
NES version has more creative game design than SNES version.
SNES version is your average fighting where you only need to memorize all attacks and combos and then just rely on your reflexes to settle attacks with defenses. Maybe I'm not aware, but is there anything innovative or experimental in that game?
Absolutely. Have you watched high-level SNES TMNT play? There's a lot more where this comes from, but here's a completely random example;
Link to videoAnS wrote:
You probably tried to play the game using behavioural patterns from SF and GG, and got beaten quickly. The game has more depth than you think.
Huh? Why reference Guilty Gear, which is the most complicated fighting series ever made? That's like saying that applying the principles of chess to Tic-Tac-Toe got me beat at it. Like...what?!
Anyways, I fiddled around a bit with NES TMNT with a friend back in the day. We didn't discover anything interesting going on. That video feos linked to of "high-level play" (still not clear who the players were) doesn't appear to show any new tactics or ideas I wasn't aware of, either.
It's just another crappy NES fighter.
Zeupar wrote:
This isn't the first time one of your opinions stirs up drama. In fact, this has been the case several times since you returned to this forum. There are many ways to state an opinion about something, but your word choices and tone make most of your opinions rude and aggravating. While feos may need to avoid Internet forums, you may want to improve your netiquette.
It's so deliciously ironic when someone pontificating about "netiquette" comes across as a massively arrogant douchebag themselves. Congratulations, Zeupar.
And sorry to let you down douche, but I will continue to state my opinion about games in whatever tone I wish to. If that offends certain people (yourself included, apparently), that is their problem.
"Oh my God, you insulted a game I like! You have thus insulted me personally!!!"
Continue seeing what your whim shows you. But to reply to another folly you say, I was speaking about the fact that our people that spend their childhood in '90-s know and love TNMT TF, therefore you shit on the thing they love and you think it's perfectly acceptable.
Again, this is the attitude of the baby.
"Someone insulted a game/book/movie I love, ergo they have insulted me personally."If you have a problem with people stating their honest opinions about a game, then once again, you're better off staying away from Internet forums.
feos wrote:
If I don't like someone's mother, can I call her a whore in his face? And in case you would try to invert my words once again, no, the game didn't give me birth, the mother is an example one loves and values.
HAHAHAHA. You have to be trolling me. Like, seriously?
You just compared insulting NES TMNT to insulting your own mother?! No wonder you're so fucked up; I doubt a game cartridge is a very helpful parent!
feos wrote:
I conclude once more you were actually a SNES owner.
If you want to defend your mother so badly, why not respond to my concrete criticism?
By the way, the SNES version of TMNT does NOT rely on tic throws and there is an actual combo system in place, albeit a simple one.
fiskerN wrote:
IronSlayer wrote:
I wonder; do you drink rotten milk every night, because compared to dry dog shit, it doesn't taste so bad?
Тебя видимо сильно задело живое, за то что тебе сделали правильное замечание.
You think the nonsense feos spouted constitutes an appropriate rebuttal?
fiskerN wrote:
И ты со своими оскорблениями перешёл уже на личности.
I realize it's not your native language, but I urge you to go back, read through the topic, and mark who started making personal remarks about other members first.
More importantly, instead of chastising me, why don't you spend some time improving your run of NES TMNT or (even better) making a worthwhile run of the SNES version?
Suggesting SNES version (or Genesis one) is as offtopic as suggesting author to TAS Mortal Kombat instead of this game.
I disagree. Due to the limitations of the NES, the NES version of this game is quite ugly, while the SNES version has much better graphics and beautiful backgrounds.
This is true, but is not the reason for my condemnation of the NES version. In terms of gameplay, the NES TMNT is an absolute mess. It's missing frames, is based completely around brain-dead tic throws, and has no combo system to speak of.
The game is as basic and boring of a fighter as one can make. Really though, that's par for the course for fighters on the NES. The console just doesn't have the capability to provide the nuance and depth a 2D fighter needs.
feos wrote:
You prefer empty rhetoric of being a baby and getting out of here.
I would talk a lot more about the weaknesses in gameplay (see above) if you showed the slightest interest in actually discussing it, instead of flinging malformed, juvenile insults my way for daring to disparage NES TMNT.
And yes, you are acting like a little baby. Someone doesn't like a game you do, and you claim they have personally insulted you. I can't imagine anything more immature and childish.
feos wrote:
(but you imagined you can shit on the thing you don't know, which shows only you as an idiot).
I've played NES TMNT, actually. It sucks. You can't control everyone's opinion.
feos wrote:
The rest fightings our people played on 8-bit were pirated Mortal Kombats, pirated Fatal Fury, pirated Street Fighters, all of which can definitely be called shitty mess for those who played them and compared them to TMNT TF, or to original games from other consoles these were ported from.
So the argument is that because NES SF2, MK, and FF were completely unplayable pieces of shit, NES TMNT isn't so bad by comparison? Wow, great reasoning!
I wonder; do you drink rotten milk every night, because compared to dry dog shit, it doesn't taste so bad?
feos wrote:
Now either provide (at last) a real proof that this game is a shitty mess, or kill yourself (joke).
As if we need any more evidence that you're a whiny baby throwing a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way...
Here you insult the whole country that played that game in '90-s and
Oh, get out of here with this bullshit. You're either a troll or complete idiot if you believe "SNES Tournament Fighters is the best and most popular version of that game, and the NES one is lousy and practically unknown" somehow translates to an insult of the entire country of Russia. (The place where I was born and grew up in)
feos wrote:
but I won't be surprized if you call Zen Intergalactic Ninja or Battletoads & Double Dragon also a shitty mess).
No, they're not. They're fun, flawed games whose NES versions are viable, decently popular, and most importantly, good choices for a TAS.
However, like your bizarre rant about graphics, these games have NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
feos wrote:
I am personally insulted by your post,
If you're personally insulted by someone stating that a video game is garbage, you need to stay off this forum and the Internet in general. At least for a few years, until you grow up from being a baby.
IronSlayer wrote:
feos wrote:
PS: if anyone is interested, here you can watch the videos I mentioned: http://cowabunga.ru/forum/4 (both 2 threads).
Here I link the community and (surptize!) namely the the videos I was talking about, but:
I clicked on the two threads, actually.
Neither represents evidence of a community. One is several videos with odd names featuring gameplay of NES TMNT with obnoxious music blaring the whole time. So what?
I can invite a friend or two to play some obscure arcade beat em' up like Vigilante, call it the "Santa Claus Cup" like you did, and then put the recorded videos up on Youtube. Would that be evidence of an actual competitive and fan community for the game?
Absolutely not.
It's also telling that both topics have exactly ONE person replying, someone named "jokingly". (Likely yourself) In fact, it's not even made clear whether those videos occur between two human opponents, or you simply playing against the CPU.
feos wrote:
IronSlayer wrote:
the NES TMNT is a crappy, substandard fighter, though.
Are you fucking kidding me???
That was my exact reaction to your posts in this topic.
Regardless of what you think of NES TMNT, are you going to tell me with a straight face that SNES TMNT isn't better in every way?
If you want to claim something outlandish, like "The Zelda CD-i games are the best in the entire series!!!" that's fine, but then adding in something like "FUCK ANYONE who thinks Link to the Past is the best Zelda game!!" isn't going to help your case.
And claiming that saying that is tantamount to insulting my own country makes you look like a moron or a troll.
I think the only fighting game of even the slightest merit for the NES was Fatal Fury Special.
I realize that after a person throws in insults, he gets blind to any replies,
Those were not "insults", but an honest response to the movie. The submission didn't look serious in any way; it's something that virtually anyone can throw together in an hour on a poor game choice.
feos wrote:
but nevertheless I will say you one thing: owning an SNES in '90-s in Russia is certanly an honour and a privilege, only the chosen ones were worthy to play it,
Well aware of it sir, considering I was born in Moscow in 1987 and lived there until 1992. What the hell is your point? What does it have to do with TAS video standards?
feos wrote:
but that never gives them a right to shit on games on other consoles that they know nothing about. You may think that the power that console provides to developer authomatically makes games awesome, and even that the more powerful the console, the more amazing the games, but it is not true at all.
I don't know where you are coming up with all this nonsense. This bizarre rant has nothing to do with anything I wrote.
feos wrote:
We have a comunity of online players competing in NES TMNT, recording insane videos of what is in fact possible in this game, and speaking shit of it not having seen these vids is childish, but I doubt you ever thought of looking for proofs of your words. Or did you?
I would love to see this supposed "community". I highly doubt it exists, but I will give you an opportunity to show otherwise.
By the way, I am well aware of a very small community that plays SNES TMNT (Genesis TMNT doesn't have one because April has an auto-win against every character), but I have never heard of one for the NES.
AnS wrote:
Then please go ahead and record a playaround showcasing all the funny tricks. Even if IronSlayer will vote No on that playaround just for the sake of his hatred for NES version, other people should find the playaround entertaining.
If he can produce an interesting playthrough of the NES version, I will judge it accordingly. There are many bad games on this site that have decent or even good speedruns.
That doesn't change the fact that the NES TMNT is a crappy, substandard fighter, though.
Speaking of viral music videos, I just found this AWESOME performance yesterday. I used to play drums in a metal band when I was younger, and this guy epitomizes everything I wanted to do.
Link to video
What a pleasant surprise.
Lots of extremely fast-paced, acrobatic goodness, with the occasional geyser of blood and the constant display of naked ninjas and samurai. Easy yes vote.
This is absolutely awful. I don't even know where to begin;
1) TMNT was an interesting and popular game for the SUPER NINTENDO. The NES version was a shitty mess that no one cares about. It's about as relevant and appropriate for a speedrun as the NES version of Street Fighter 2. Which is to say not at all. It's actually mind-boggling that someone would choose the NES version of TMNT to do a speedrun of unless they were trolling.
2) The movie was extremely repetitive and boring.
3) The movie displayed virtually no skill; your play is very simple, brain-dead, and easy for any beginner to replicate.
4) I am 99.99% you didn't even come close to finishing the rounds as quickly as you could have. The whole play-through looked like something I could cook up in 20-30 minutes with a couple of re-records here and there.
The last point is the only one I'm not completely certain of, but at any rate, any of the first three points (let alone all of them) is enough to disqualify this mess. No vote.
I agree with the core sentiment of what they're arguing (yes, prescribing Ritalin for kids is retarded, as are many mental health diagnosis having to do with "attention deficit disorder", "depression", and "bipolar disorder"), but it's such bullshit sensationalism, with an over-eager, comically idiotic narrator to boot, I had to click the red x on my tab after just six minutes.
Yeah, there's really no question that the size, passion, and activity of the Horsies community far outstrips the actual quality of the show. Let's not pretend otherwise.
There is a certain element of quality to it, but we're talking about an above-average children's cartoon that is very average (at best) when judged by adult show standards.
Also, in his mess of retarded grammar and incorrect assumptions, grassini did actually make one reasonable point;
Stupid cartoons might affect kids' social and communicative skills or might be an attempt to escape adulthood for people at our age(i'm 19),
I can't deny that this is very true for much of popular media nowadays.
I thought the finale could be a bit scary for little girls. Which got me thinking: I wonder how much background research is done for these types of shows so that the writers can know what is and isn't age-appropriate for the target audience eg. in terms of how scary the story can be.
When you're a successful show pumping out dozens of episodes, you don't do any "research" in that regard. It's just a decision by the relevant director, producer, and/or show-runner.
I would imagine Horsies tend to err on the side of caution. Remember that animator who worked on the show uploading Youtube videos of how animation mistakes were caught and corrected? He mentioned that a scene of Rainbow Dash summoning lighting was considered "too scary" because the sky momentarily turned dark.
I had no opinion on Freud until I had to read 100 pages of his writings for a literature class in undergrad.
While he was certainly a pioneer in the field, his theories are are largely bullshit, and oftentimes contradictory. His interpretation of dreams is simply too narrow-minded, simplistic, and dogmatic.
Among other things, Freud believes that EVERY dream has a meaning, and the meaning is ALWAYS wish fulfillment. If you counter that some dreams feature your or a loved one dying, Freud will explain that there is some secret, dark part of you that wants that to happen. This kind of response can be used against any criticism of his work.
Ultimately, I would classify his writings as more rhetorical, not scientific. And I agree; most psychologists I have spoken to have long since moved past his ideas. While Freud's theories were very useful as an initial step, I don't believe they form the basis of modern psychoanalysis.
There is also Jung and many other influential early psychologists, too.
Runs should be entertaining. Failing that, they should at least get the fastest time within a reasonable category.
This particular submission fails at both. It's a considerably slower run than what many human players are capable of, and it's not particularly entertaining to watch without the input visualization, featuring lots of dead time and simplistic movements.
No vote.
Edit-
I'm a little disappointed that some people were giving HappyLee shit about his comments.
The guy, in a very respectful, articulate manner, explained why the publication made little sense to him. HappyLee is obviously very passionate about SMB1 (not to mention the best in the world at TAS'ing it), so there is nothing wrong with him making multiple comments about this run.
Then, to further reinforce his points, he produced MASSIVE improvements over the submission in a very quick manner.
I wish we had more people scrutinizing submissions this well!
And in response to "hurr durr I read misogynistic literature so I know more about gender equality than you do", are you familiar with a "false sense of objectivity", particularly the parts about feeling the need to give equal weight to both sides when one is clearly truthful and the other is false (usually applies to discussions of evolution v. creationism or climate science).
I don't give "equal weight to both". I have read both feminist literature and anti-feminist literature, and then made up my own mind after fairly considering both sides. Based on personal life experience, I then came to the conclusion that much of modern feminism is bigoted, irrational, misandrist bullshit.
You and Dada have never read anything anti-feminist, though; you avoid it like a deadly plague. As mentioned before, that's extreme bias and self-brainwashing; you will not even honestly and logically consider the other side of the debate.
Anyways, all this nonsense is besides the point. Here is what I wanted to ask you;
You started this whole foolishness by stating that a man inquiring on how to make a woman see him romantically instead of just as a Platonic friend is asking something "incredibly misogynistic". Can you explain yourself, especially since there are many women who suffer from the "friend zone" in interactions with men, and ask the same question?
moozooh wrote:
Does that answer your question, and does that change anything for you?
Of course it won't; Enterim has shown multiple times in this topic that he is allergic to logical reasoning and objective facts.
While I appreciate goofydylan's hard work in producing NES runs and his fine submission text, I have to vote no on this.
Not only is the movie boring and repetitive, but it's barely better than the SDA record. It's cool that you took it as inspiration, but when you manage to shave off 8 seconds from a 6 minute real-time run, that's a sign that the TAS is either not very good, or the game itself is not a good candidate for one. (In this case, the latter is definitely true)
Incidentally, "Dickwolves" was about MEN being raped. By wolves with dicks on their hands. In a fantasy MMO setting.
This doesn't really help your argument. In fact, it demonstrates his point fairly well. Men getting raped are treated even worse by society than women. The rape of a man is just as bad as the rape of a woman.
Agreed.
However, the impression I got was that Dada was making a statement specifically about women being raped, not rape in general.
A genuinely good idea (no sarcasm)! But be sure to keep an open mind, because some of their stories will probably shock you. Here is a quote from a friend of mine;
"I don't know how men stand women; I just seem them as living sex dolls."
Thing is, this friend is female. She feels this way because she has always had few female friends, and had severe suicidal thoughts in high school because of the mockery, social isolation, and torment she suffered from other girls.
I don't agree with her quote at all, but hey, according to feminists, since she is a woman, she knows way more about this any guy does, right?
Chamale wrote:
A key point of feminism is that the psychological differences between men and women are caused by upbringing, and that if fundamental differences exist they are much smaller by comparison.