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I don't see how any of these possibilities would change the battle tactic from "hurt him as early and as often as possible" to something else. Enemies can take damage every 8 frame and the follower is able to dish it out at such a rate.
As far as I can tell his entire pattern is time based. The only part of it that depends on the player is whether he moves left or right after spitting the fire birds. I tried different things to stall him (like slashing, which works on some enemies like the hermit crabs) but nothing worked. Feel free to try it out.
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The world 3 boss is driving me insane. He pulls out just before the final hit, forcing another waiting period of 10+ seconds. WIP so far:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/847/
Addresses to watch for boss HP:
7E0EE5,1u
7E0336,1u
EDIT: Forgot to mention I would appreciate anyone trying the boss fight out and figuring how to kill him before he pulls back a second time.
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World 1 redone for a ~500 frame improvement.
World 2 done. Four time as many rerecords used compared to world 1, mostly for extremely difficult/annoying monster/luck manipulation.
12849 frames ahead of my test run (10% faster) so far. Deathtoll might not fall before the 1:30 mark, but nothing's decided yet. World 3 is the most improvable world.
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adelikat wrote:
http://www.woodus.com/den/games/dw4nes/monsters.php
according to this chart, the Gigademon has 1023 hp (which seems to be max HP for any enemy)
I just inflicted 1054 damage to him in the first round but he did not go down!
According to that chart, Gigademon has 1200 HP. It's Master Malice who has 1023 HP.
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nitsuja wrote:
- Got rid of the 2-frame delay after loading a savestate, it's immediate now (Note: image may not always display properly, but it's fine most of the time, especially for newly-made savestates)
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The second quest actually varies after the 4th fortress. The layouts remain identical to the first quest but the tubes take you to different locations. That's an extremely tiny difference however, and I still consider the second quest as a hard mode and not as a relatively different adventure like in zelda. I think a TAS would be more entertaining if it skipped the first quest altogether.
This should be interesting. Normally, the best way to beat the game is the slow and steady approach, taking good care to clear the path to the exit before blowing up the reactor.
IIRC, the game has slowdowns in some places because there are too many enemies, see if it's possible/practical to manipulate enemies to drop B-shots so you can kill them as quickly as possible.
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After a hiatus, I watched my test run about a dozen times while taking notes. I also did some testing and I think I have the optimal route down. I have started what I hope will be a submittable run. Here it is so far, at the beginning of greenwood:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/788/
Grass valley was completed about 2 minute faster than in the test run. Reasons:
- Frame advance used throughout for increased precision
- Better fighting techniques and better handling of monster spawning
- Used death as a shortcut 4 times instead of 0 (probably the biggest time saver)
- Significantly faster boss fight (it's not really much of a fight anymore)
All damage taken is on purpose, either because it's faster or because I plan on dying later (or both). I tried to keep it interesting but it was a fairly secondary goal compared to speed. Here's some answers to questions I forsee:
Q: Poking versus swinging?
A: If both the swing and the poke do 1 bar of damage, poking kills faster by a couple of frames, even if the player is positioned properly so the swing will hit enemies twice. At level 2, the swing does 2 damage (4 with a double hit) so I start using it then.
Q: But you swing at a monster before level 2!
A: He's vulnerable but out of poke range.
Q: Taking the long way around on the conveyor belts instead of the shortcut?
A: The long way is 5-6 frames faster than the shortcut since the shortcut belt rolls in the wrong direction.
Feedback would be much appreciated.
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The test run was exactly that, a test run. It was played at 50% speed throughout, 25% in boss fights, with frame advance used for dialogues/menus and here and there for experimentation (never made a TAS). It was primarily made to determine the necessary monster lairs to seal. It was also made as a tool for review to help observe when damage should taken to save time, when to die to save time, and manipulate level ups/herb usage in consequence. It's also to determine when magic should be best used, specifically the spots I should make SURE I have a minimum of X gems before getting there.
You can't really combine magic and sword attacks. I discovered this when I tried to kill a monster with magic while crabwalking toward it. It only took very little damage, the light arrows seemingly not doing any damage at all. I loaded a state I saved about 2 seconds earlier, did everything the same way, but this time without holding L, and the light arrows obliterated the monster. It seems like the sword poke was overriding the magic damage, possibly because the poke deals damage very quickly and consequently triggers the (very short, in this game) invulnerability time frequently while magic does damage much more slowly (about twice per second).
After getting the mushroom shoes you head down the basement at the top of the mountain. Right where that slippry ice sort of thing is (the one that forces you back down). I think it's better to move straight up on it if you just walk a bit further to the right first. I think this is where you kill your first set of enemies after getting the shoes. If you don't know what place I mean that is. :)
I know the place you speak of. I did what I did because I wanted the lair to be in sight as soon as possible so it could start spawning monsters. It is a VERY slow multi-spawn (as opposed to one-by-one) monster lair, so the earlier it started spawning, the better.
Finally, hitting random monster with magic should be done for level up manipulation (for a full heal) or reducing lag. Trying to do it only for extra EXP for the swords won't really do anything at all because there's no way I'll be level 16 by the time I get the metal sword. The only place where being able to swing the metal sword would actually save time as opposed to the critical sword would be in the first and second basements of the laboratory because I have to kill metal monsters. As soon as I reach the the model towns, being able to swing that sword no longer presents an advantage since there are no more metal monsters to kill from then on. Same is true for the spirit sword. I only need to clear 3 spirit monster lairs, and I won't be getting level 19 before that happens.
Why is there no way I would build enough EXP? Because the EXP the monsters give ramp up dramatically in each world, anywhere between 3 and 5 times more (and sometimes more) and they aren't noticeably more difficult to kill. That's why that I'm only 2-3 levels behind a 100% playthrough throughout the game despite the fact that I clear only about 1/3 of the monster lairs. I'm pretty sure that doing a minimal run of world 1-4 and doing a full run of world 5-6 would put me only 1 level behind of someone that does a full run of all the worlds. Remember that EXP required for next level also increase dramatically and the entire EXP gain from the extra lairs in world 1-4 is probably just barely enough to give an extra level when you're level 20+.
---
Later I'll detail my plans and my ideas for the real TAS and I'd appreciate some help on it because all the variables I have to keep track of are overwhelming me.
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Since it still won't upload on dehacked's site I put the final movie on rapidshare. Here it is:
http://rapidshare.de/files/8938654/sblazer.smv.html
And it's weird that it freezes for Hamm, I have no trouble playing it back with the default movie settings.
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All done. Total time is 1:44. Lowering that to 1:30 might prove to be on the impossible side but it can definitely be improved by a few minutes.
World 5 was surprisingly short, 12 minutes total, but I took a ton of damage due to the sheer amount of hazard it contains. Dr. Leo defies death every day he works in his lab. On a positive note, no living creature's soul needed to be released, just doors, stairs and city models.
World 6's ghost fights were o-so-annoying. These guys are already painful in a regular game, having to poke-kill them is just a chore. Thankfully only 3 ghost monster lairs needed to be sealed. Also, I needed to free the 2 guards with Dr. Leo to make the cutscene with the queen occur. I also needed to free the frontdoor castle guard to spawn the castle otherwise the king's soul just sits there floating complaining it can't be released yet. Funny how the queen in world 3 didn't have that problem. That last one alone added 5 more monster lairs to the total.
I'm satisfied with how the boss fights in world 5 and 6 went. The fights themselves aren't perfect but I think the strategies used are. They die fast, fast enough to surprise people who played this before, particularly the airship fight. Deathtoll was neither interesting nor fast, unfortunately.
For some reason I can't upload the last movie to dehacked's microstorage even though the file is 736K.
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Updated test run, world 4 done.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/452/sblazer.smv
Figuring out what monsters lairs to seal was annoying in world 4 because I not only had to free the necessary NPCs, but also free superfluous NPCs that would "dig" my way to them.
I grabbed the magic armor, I only had to clear 1 quick spawning monster lair to make its chest appear. I also made a slight detour to get the lucky blade. I skipped the rotator magic (it's terrible) and a strange bottle since I hadn't used the one I got in world 3 yet, but it too is only a small detour to get.
I used magic a lot in this world because it's a significant time saver. Those wizards teleport around if I get too close to them and it's a huge waste of time. They start spinning for 2 seconds, disappear for 3-5 seconds, spin again for 2 seconds and only after all that can I finally damage them. Doesn't happen if I waste them from afar with magic. The annoying rotating bats are much faster/convenient to kill with magic, too.
Total time is now 1:05. I wanted the complete run to be at most 1:30 but that won't be happening. Perhaps a planned, frame perfect run can be 1:30 or less.
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It'd be silly not to pick up the critical sword. I walk on the tile right next to the chest, and the chance to land a critical hit seems pretty high and perhaps even manipulable. Too bad it doesn't work on bosses. The lucky blade isn't a big detour either (~3-4 seconds) and it's a worthwhile grab considering how monsters' defense goes up but their HP remains mostly the same so double shots of light arrows still slaughter them. I think the lucky blade's chance of getting better gems still works on magic kills, too.
The problem with the fire floors in Dr. Leo's lab is that they deal 4 damage instead of the fire temple's 1, but they're fairly small stretches and there aren't too many of them so it's workable. I'll probably need a medical herb though.
And yeah I just tested it, poking works on metal/spirit enemies so it's all good. Poking the moving walls in the final area with the soul blade 1 shot-kills them and they're worth 4000 exp a pop, so getting to level 24 just before Deathtoll will be a breeze.
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That's exactly one of the things I'm trying to determine, IdeaMagnate. :) I find an experimental run to be extremely useful for that, when I watch it I can spot mistakes and things I could better do differently a lot more easily than when I'm playing.
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Sea world done, and it added 20 minutes to the total. So much backtracking in that one. I should've saved the strange bottle instead of using it in the fire temple. It would've saved a lot more time to die instead of walking back from Rockbird. I could have used the fairy gem to warp back to town but it's fairly out of the way, and clearing the 2 monster lairs + talking to the gem basically takes just as long, though it would've given me some extra experience... hmm.
I grabbed the ever so useful power bracelet as well as the critical sword but I can't swing it yet. Poking the boss with it didn't deal more damage than poking him with the sword of life (2 bars per hit w/ bracelet). I skipped the magic flair; while it's not too out of the way (3 extra monster lairs but the mermaid who gives it is close to a dolphin I need to talk to) and is probably the strongest spell when charged up beside phoenix, its range is absolute crap. The soul of the magician needs to be almost on top of the monster to hurt it, whereas with light arrows you can easily hit multiple monsters across the screen and landing double hits with it is a lot easier than with fireball.
I hope just poking the metal and spirit killing swords will be enough to hurt the monsters they need to hurt otherwise the soul blade won't be my only problem. I also hope skipping the ice armor won't come back to haunt me in Dr. Leo's lab.
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IdeaMagnate wrote:
Did you check if it'd be faster to die in the dungeon of the first world when you need to get to Leo's house? It'd be pretty simple to take damage so that when you need to die, you'll only have one hit left.
Dying to go spin the mill's wheel and dying after getting leo's brush would faster, but dying means losing all gems unless a strange bottle is equipped. It's possible this isn't a big deal this early in the game, but it's hard to tell right now.
Also, it'd be good to spend some serious time looking for bugs or unexpected interactions. In a movie this long, the ability to zip, go through a wall or even just walk faster could save minutes. If/when you do this, frame advance is very much your friend.
I tried messing around a bit. Unlike LttP, Left + right does nothing miraculous. The game simply ignores the left press and moves the character to the right. Normal walking and crab walking are identical speed-wise. Only thing I haven't checked if it crab walking around a corner is faster than turning. Other than that I have no idea what could be abused except monster pathing/gem dropping (haven't figured that out yet), there aren't many moves in this game. Any suggestions?
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Yeah, I just got done with greenwood and stopped recording at the beginning of southerna. Here's what I have so far:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/421/sblazer.smv
It's a first rough run, I'm mostly determining the route, the experience gain (specifically manipulating the level gains for a free full heal) and the gem/magic usage.
It's already clocking 30 minutes at the beginning of the 3rd world... I estimate 3-4 minutes could be cut via monster pattern manipulation (haven't figured that out yet) and magic usage and frame perfection, but it'll still be one long TAS.
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There isn't much right now, I just started. I'm at the beginning of greenwood with about 1 less minute than Mijae had but that's fairly meaningless seeing how neither of us rerecorded much (100-300 for 15-16 minutes).
A chunk of the time I saved was in the fight against metal mantis. The last monster of the last lair before him gave me level 3 which not only refilled my HP but also allowed me to take 2 fireball hits before dying.
For now I'll go with the minimalist approach and seal only the lairs that are required to proceed and those that create shortcuts that save more time than they require to seal with a little exp on the side if I can without slowing down but I'm torn. I know I'll come up short on exp for the soul blade, however I remember those moving glass wall things in the world of evil giving QUITE a bit of experience so I don't know if it's worth it to use magic to blast respawning monsters or monsters from non required lairs for extra experience. But then again, other necessary swords also have a level requirement and I might come up short for them if I don't. I guess that's why the first run is experimental.
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I'm willing to do a rough preliminary run and do some research just to get a good time attacker interested. I love this game and I would love to see a TAS of it.