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Post subject: Masterjun'd
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<scrimpy> How come we have such a flood of TC runs in the last couple months <Masterjun> because someone figured out how to work with controller registers? <adelikat> on average you beat a game 1000% faster than any other taser <adelikat> that's quite a stat <meshuggahTAS> 23 second what <scrimpy> Well, but now we found so many different games that were TCable in such a short timeframe. <adelikat> a masterjun tas is an order of magnitude faster than previous efforts <Toothache> so, a Masterjun is a unit of TAS improvement <adelikat> yes <Toothache> eg: this run is 15 masterjuns faster than the previous version <scrimpy> Let's hope I'll be able to improve Castlevania 3 by 1 Masterjun <adelikat> 15 masterjun's though, is like 5 hours <meshuggahTAS> 15 masterjun = 3.14 minutes * 15 I guess <scrimpy> that would be rad... <adelikat> an after tas is like .1 masterjun's faster than the previous <Toothache> this is now a thing <meshuggahTAS> the name is also good enough to just say masterjunit <Masterjun> rofl <Toothache> even more pun potential <Toothache> *puntential * adelikat dies from pun abuse <meshuggahTAS> "but we think that the ladder glitch is completely useless in a speedrunning aspect and what's shown in the video is just an emulator glitch of snes9x 1.43." years later: another masterjun glitch tas <Acmlm> not only used, but on the first ladder <meshuggahTAS> I think the rule "every Kirby games can be finished in the first level" got stronger <feos> meshuggahTAS: that's how battletoads glitched appeared. since 2004 the game resources page was saying "dying on a jet is useless" <Nach> meshuggahTAS: let me know when you do that to KDL <meshuggahTAS> so it's only a matter of time someone total controls SMB by going left (useless) <Nach> meshuggahTAS: going left is actually used at the start of each level in SMB <Nach> meshuggahTAS: HappyLee also beat adelikat's best SMB by using more left <feos> %D <feos> "adelikat, you hurry too much. here" <adelikat> the secret to obsoleting a run to the right for justice, is more left <Toothache> proving the old phrase that two rights don't make a left, but 3 do :-p <Acmlm> like Donkey Kong where you go down the ladder instead of up <adelikat> actually, I did the math, and I calculated that when Masterjun aims for fastest time, his movie is on average 3395.25% faster than another author's movie
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You're quite welcome :)
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To identify the split between the legitimacy of runs: Some people want the fastest possible completion for the software in question. Some people want the fastest possible completion of the software using the game's actual mechanics as flawed as they may be. Consider it the difference between a really good Chess player, who may use moves that technically shouldn't be legal, and another who flips the board over and plays some other game on the reverse side of it.
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CoolKirby wrote:
It looks like he did! Try it out!
I started working on the fix since Tub's first post here. It was fixed for almost the entirety of discussion about it here. I was waiting to see how many posts there would be about it before anyone actually noticed.
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Kirby's Fun Pak for you Europeans, and Kirby Super Deluxe for the Japanese among us.
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Svimmer, your comments would be appreciated. Edit: CoolKirby: Thank you!
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I actually have a better parser which will fix these kinds of problems, it will be applied once I work out a few remaining issues. Please be patient.
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I generally avoided those ridiculous bash sessions so I don't know who any of these people are, however, from what I've seen, these people ignored how we bent over backwards to portray these as TASs, with huge bold writing, glossaries, and more. They just seemed to complain because they didn't like how something like this could possibly dare to rival their speed records even in another form. So yeah, if he's from the above group, I wouldn't trust a statement like that either.
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In 5 hours of play, you could unlock all the secret characters :P Edit: You could also find an SRAM online with all characters unlocked. Edit 2: http://www.zophar.net/savestates/n64/super-smash-brothers.html
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Tub wrote:
Scepheo wrote:
Tub wrote:
Polls would be more fun if the radio buttons were surrounded by <label> tags so you could click the whole text, not just the tiny button. I just can't hit those things with my zapper!
I think your otherwise good point might completely be lost in this thread.
Of course one might try posting in the proper thread. Don't let it be said that I'm not a patient man, but there are limits.
In this case, I wouldn't bother posting further about it.
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Movie classes which are used to create new branches probably deserve to tie into the branch naming. Maybe viewers want all such runs to be labeled exploits memory corruption: sub tag. I'm not going to speak for our users as to what the ideal labeling should be, but it is a topic we should be discussing.
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feos wrote:
Why don't you address the opinion that only non-speed-oriented runs must be labeled as "total control" (ACE/ECA/whatever)?
I think even speed oriented runs need it, as a significant portion of our viewers feel such runs should be categorized and should not obsolete otherwise fastest runs. We should consider tagging various runs from these lists: http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C3058Y.html (Corrupts memory) http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C3057Y.html (Corrupts save data) Edit: While using my browser to scan the first link for "arbitrary code", 5 runs ended up matching the search (which is not to mean that only 5 runs need to be considered to be tagged as such).
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feos wrote:
"arbitrary code" or "total control" is too generic.
This is subjective. I don't see anything too generic when there are only 2 published runs with it.
Yet it seems there are more that we should consider labeling as such. I won't take current labeling situation as any indicator as what we should and shouldn't do. We've also seen plenty of submissions that weren't accept that can give us an idea of what people are looking to accomplish.
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Svimmer recently interviewed Radix regarding TASing: https://files.tasvideos.org/nach/Radix%20on%20TASing.pdf You can post your thoughts here. Anyone want to rewrite this in our wiki in the appropriate section? Wiki: Interviews Edit: Page now up: Wiki: Interviews/Radix/TASVideosDoc
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I'm sorry feos, but I don't understand what you're saying. In order to help you, all I can do is clarify my position and hope it helps. 1) Tags should try to be generic yet clear. 2) "arbitrary code" or "total control" is too generic. They should always have a sub tag explaining what kind as we initially agreed in IRC. 3) Playaround as a tag or sub tag for things which do something other than play around the existing built-in physics engine and mechanics is a bad idea. 4) With the arbitrary execution that we've seen in submissions and publications, various payload objectives are already emerging.
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Scepheo wrote:
Tub wrote:
Polls would be more fun if the radio buttons were surrounded by <label> tags so you could click the whole text, not just the tiny button. I just can't hit those things with my zapper!
I think your otherwise good point might completely be lost in this thread.
Since the people who could implement such a thing created this thread, I wouldn't worry about it.
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feos wrote:
The problem is, we don't have reliable statistics with total control runs to make reasonable abstractions yet. If there are 2-3 times more such runs, I promise to revisit the case.
Even now with the few runs we have, I see a clearly defined set of things people are doing.
  • Skipping to the end of the game
  • Skipping to the end of a level
  • Modifying something in the game to cheat your way through it
  • Just put on some show (cut scene) that really has nothing to do with the game
  • Create new game(s), and then play them
  • Break out of one game into another (This happened in a rejected Wii Zelda run which jumped into Kirby Pinball Land's ending)
I can also see:
  • Adding on new things to the game and playing with them (power ups, enemies, levels...)
I agree that we haven't seen it all, but we have seen a few of these used multiple times already, and things like creating a brand new playable game (or several) should be distinctive enough to not even currently to have to be in the same category as other things. Now perhaps future runs may be more diverse, perhaps someone will instead of adding on a game, create a calculator. Maybe for modern platforms, we'll see them create a word processor or spreadsheet software. Yes, we haven't seen it all, but we could come up with terms to define what we currently have seen, which will only in unlikely scenarios need to be renamed. Key point: Whatever we do, let's not lump together things into a single term which we can all agree are dissimilar in payload objective.
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Scepheo wrote:
This is ridiculous, these runs are the fastest, and objectively so.
Great! So you don't need a flag/imagery to tell you which is the shortest.
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feos wrote:
About Arbitrary Code Execution and all related stuff. If we use ACE with subtags, there will be 2 situations. - ACE used primarily, for the sake of itself, to make some glitchfest playaroiund. For the first case, I suggest switching to the term "total control". Because it doesn't only take total control over the game and then just drop it as a sacrifice for speed, but it keeps applying it more and more, showcasing the very fact that total control is taken. That way total control branch would be so rare that it wouldn't need any sub-labels yet. It only would, if there are several such runs per game. Then, to differentiate between them , we would actually need some sub-label. "total control: Pi", "total control: Ponies", "total control: new games" or whatever. As long as TA exists for different games only, we don't have the need to sub-label it.
It's hard to predict the future, but say Masterjun made the following: Super Mario World now has the Tanooki suit from Super Mario Bros 3, you get it every time you hit a Yellow switch block. It also has the Hammer Bros. Suit which you get from Green switch blocks. And this in-game hack is now used for a playaround to go crazy within the game completing 96 levels in the most absurd manner possible. The above would be quite different than what you want to currently label as playaround. What would you label this case? You suggest we only more descriptively subtag label runs in case of more branches being created for a single game. I disagree, certain subtags will end up carrying connotations as to how they're used. Playaround right now is used across the site to suggest a long winded but insane abuse of the games psychics engines, bug demonstrations, incredible activities, and more. I would not consider adding on new games or a pony cutscene to be the same category. We should aim for subtags which work across all games, and choose them up front.
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Putting a question mark on a run seems like a bad idea to me. Are you trying to convey there is something suspicious about the run?
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I gave some thought to the idea of flagging the fastest run (the world record) with an icon of sorts. In the end, I dislike it, or rather, I see a bunch of issues with it. The issue is that the fastest run is really subjective. For starters, let's take Super Mario Bros., you can have the fastest possible SMB run completing only 8 levels, or you can complete all 32 levels. In truth, both are the fastest runs for their objectives, and each has its own world record. To prove the point, we have a Vault Tier which takes fastest any% and fastest 100%. This same point applies for singling the fastest run which uses a single player or multiple players to complete a game. Both can be equally deserving over their own recognized record, even if one branch is faster than the other. The next problem can be demonstrated with [2380] SNES Super Mario World "game end glitch" by Masterjun in 01:39.74 vs. [1944] SNES Super Mario World "warps" by bahamete, kaizoman666, Mister & PangaeaPanga in 09:57.82. Which is the record? There's two ways one can look at this: 1) [2380] SNES Super Mario World "game end glitch" by Masterjun in 01:39.74 is the record holder because it's the faster of the two. 2) [1944] SNES Super Mario World "warps" by bahamete, kaizoman666, Mister & PangaeaPanga in 09:57.82 is the record holder because the above movie is disqualified because it uses arbitrary code. Alternatively, based on how one defines the ending, executing the credits or defeating Bowser and rescuing the princess will also determine which should be considered the record holder. Since records are in truth subjective, I don't think we should necessarily be adding icons to show some runs are records and contrasting that others aren't. In fact, in most cases, when you see just two runs with clear labels, it's clear what a record is and you can use your own common sense or feelings. If we do need some indicators when there's a bunch of branches, perhaps we should consider counter imagery for branches which definitely are not considered any kind of record, for example, playarounds. Although, personally, it seems rather obvious to me that with the right labeling, that playarounds and similar are not record holders either.
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feos, I very much like what you're saying. Also, the "movie classes" on the site should perhaps in some way tie into the call outs.
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I think some polls are fun and some aren't, so I'm taking door number 5.
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Radiant wrote:
Masterjun wrote:
Polls are fun. -Mothrayas
I suggest we hold a poll to determine whether polls are fun :P
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feos, very nice job on your updates. Regarding "game end glitch", I'm wondering if perhaps we should turn these massive glitches into a glitch tag with a sub tag, meaning we could have: glitch - game end glitch - x-ray glitch - pipe glitch - coin case etc...
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