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STJrInuyasha wrote:
Personally, I would think blazing through the impossible to perfect levels like in the any% TAS would be more jarring than skipping them outright, as is done here. Collecting all rings regardless of whether the bonus is obtainable might be nice, but it might seem weird to someone who's just watching the TAS at random -- "why does he get perfect on this level but not that one?" for instance.
Subtitles!
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STJrInuyasha wrote:
Nach wrote:
If I ignored the comments, I would have accepted this. Since I did not ignore the comments, and noticed how many people did not like the goal, and how many people actually noticed sloppy play, I rejected it.
Well, how many is "too many", in your case? Personally, I didn't notice enough of people complaining about them for it to matter; and the movie still ended up with a 70%+ approval rating nevertheless.
Depends on the kinds of issues involved, how noticeable is it really, what % of people are noticing. Can it be seen with the plain eye or needs intimate knowledge of the game? What I saw here was too many.
If we were to go by votes alone, why bother with comments? Votes help, but they're only a small part of what a judge looks at.
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We now have a new preferred emulator for TASing SNES games - lsnes. lsnes emulates an SNES more accurately than Snes9x v1.51, and certainly v1.43 that has been used for the majority of SNES TASs till now.
We also have a published TAS using this new emulator.
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STJrInuyasha wrote:
Nach wrote:
It uses a cheat code. It arbitrarily avoids some items and wastes time. It doesn't complete the whole game.
And yet the Zanac TAS, published all of four days ago, can get away with things like this just fine? Not that I'm saying you guys should go back and magically unpublish every Zanac TAS, save the first one (I realize this is impossible anyway); I'm more or less pointing out how you guys published a TAS that does nearly the exact same thing while shooting this one down. Where's the sense here?
I wasn't the one who judged Zanac, take it up with whoever did.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
Nach wrote:
TASs are supposed to look practically perfect. When many people actually notice a flaw in the play, the perfect image is shattered, those sections need to be redone.
Okay, I can understand "superhuman". But "practically perfect", now? When did you guys switch to requiring near perfection for every little thing?
You missed the fine detail here. It doesn't require near perfection. In fact it could be pretty bad, as long as no one catches you on it, and thinks it's awesome. When lots of people in a thread are complaining about a mistake, it's clear some things are sloppy.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
That's an absurdly high barrier for a newcomer to overcome, and it honestly makes me wonder why you have "technical" ratings for published movies, in that case.
Technical rating is not about how perfect a movie is. It's about how well the movie makes use of TAS features. How perfect the movie is is but a small part of that. Due to the nature of some games, a high technical rating is impossible, even if every single frame is perfect. Please read the rating guidelines.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
(Also, if TASes are supposed to be 'practically perfect', why are any playarounds ever accepted, then?)
If people call out a playaround for looking really bad and not entertaining, they're rejected. Go look at the list of rejected playarounds.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
Nach wrote:
A TAS which aims to collect all rings should go through the game and beat it collecting all rings. The other objectives don't really work in this game.
I'm just going to assume you missed all the times this was pointed out in this topic, but a max rings goal will not work. You have to draw some kind of arbitrary line when it comes to renewable ring sources. Do you spam slots for nine minutes and murder the TAS's entertainment value? Do you stop once the ring counter starts displaying gibberish instead of numbers? Do you completely ignore them? (That isn't really "max rings" then, is it?)
Use some sane definition.
STJrInuyasha wrote:
On a finishing note... given how rarely comments and votes seem to come into play (and how often they are ignored), I have to question why they even exist.
If I ignored the comments, I would have accepted this. Since I did not ignore the comments, and noticed how many people did not like the goal, and how many people actually noticed sloppy play, I rejected it.
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It's amazing what some people believe...
<scrimpy> Nach: you actually published something?
<scrimpy> rare enough you accept something
Later...
<TASVideoAgent> Submission #3498: goofydylan8's NES Gargoyle's Quest II in 27:43.08 ACCEPTED by Nach: http://tasvideos.org/3498S.html
<ais523> Nach: how out of character for you!
<scrimpy> ais523: it's almost like bad fanfiction
<ais523> what, accepting a movie?
<scrimpy> yep
<ais523> ah, you're implying that Nach would only accept movies in fanfiction, not in real life
<TASVideoAgent> Submission #3501: Dooty's SNES Sparkster in 18:01.67 ACCEPTED by Nach: http://tasvideos.org/3501S.html
<Mothrayas> whoa, nach ACCEPTED something
<LexSfX> TWICE
<Mothrayas> and it's not mega man
<scrimpy> Nach: you accepted multiple things
<scrimpy> in one day
<scrimpy> are you sure everything is right is you
<scrimpy> ?
<scrimpy> you're not sick or anything?
<Mothrayas> it's part of his dark agenda.
<Nach> scrimpy: like 1/3 of the accepted runs on the bench are mine
<Dacicus> He even helped out with a publication
<scrimpy> Nach: did you have an epiphany or something?
<scrimpy> the wrong kind of?
<Nach> scrimpy: I'm not sure what your problem is
<Nach> am I not allowed to judge 10 runs in a week?
<scrimpy> You.
<scrimpy> Accepting.
<Velitha> could be I gave nach a good puzzle by breaking the site hehe :P
<scrimpy> when you first did it, I was thinking you were just cracking a joke or something
<Velitha> all part of nach's plan, he KNEW I was going to break the site
<scrimpy> but now I'm beginning to get seriously worried about you
<Nach> scrimpy: http://tasvideos.org/JudgeCounts.html
<Velitha> I played right in to it :P
<Nach> I have one of the higer acceptance rates of our judges :P
<scrimpy> Oh god
<scrimpy> what is happening
<Nach> scrimpy: DarkKobold is the dark rejector
<scrimpy> I like how DarkKobold is the most rejecthappy
<scrimpy> also, how come dada only judged a single movie?
<Mothrayas> DarkKobold is evil
<Mothrayas> HE MUST BE PUT DOWN
Later...
<TASVideoAgent> Submission #3500: Ilari's SNES Speedy Gonzales: Los Gatos Bandidos in 23:27.42 ACCEPTED by Nach: http://tasvideos.org/3500S.html
<Nach> there are now 13 accepted runs on the bench
<Nach> and I accepted 6 of them...
<natt> Nach: your reject key broken or something?
<Nach> natt: it's worse
<Nach> natt: some of my recent acceptions are on the front page too
<natt> this is bad
<ThatGugaWhoPlay> really bad
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Acheron86 wrote:
I'd recommend getting early flippers (not sure exactly when, just don't wait too long) because you can use the warp glitch in an overworld side scroll area (fishing minigame would be a good option for this). Then you could walk through a broken-physics overworld. Flippers are nice to have since so many tiles become water tiles.
But not too early!
Be sure to get Mambo's mambo before flippers, because that's really funny.
Acheron86 wrote:
I'd try not to break the sequence of events too badly, because you don't want to skip past getting Marin, Bow-Wow, etc. I'm fairly certain the ghost will never show up if you get the level 2 bracelet before completing the fourth dungeon, so keep that in mind. By completing the seventh dungeon before getting the Rooster, you can keep him permanently.
On the other hand, you do want to get some of these at the same time, so you want to screw up the sequence a little.
Acheron86 wrote:
You should be able to get the magnifying lens without doing any part of the trading quest, but IIRC it isn't actually a lens unless you've gotten the mermaid's scale; I think it's whatever item is next for you on the trading quest. This should be checked--if I'm mistaken, it may be good to get the boomerang really early and have some fun with that.
I remember the same. Warping there early, and it's a Yoshi doll. But you can skip straight to the honeycomb part of the trading game. Tarin gives it to you after you beat the slime dungeon.
Acheron86 wrote:
I can't remember if cucco attacks happen in this game.
They do.
Acheron86 wrote:
I wonder if you can drag the Walrus across transitions and have Marin sing to him somewhere silly, like near Eagle's tower (and subsequently have him jumping off the mountain instead of into the water).
ROFL! That'd be absolutely hillarious!
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Bobmario511 wrote:
I've been considering the idea of a playaround and I'm slowly starting on a route for when I do it. So far it starts off by getting the lvl-1 sword and the lvl-0 shield then steal the shovel (and maybe the bow)
I don't think you should let the shopkeeper kill you. So only steal the bow. But make sure to name yourself THIEF at the beginning of the game.
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Okay, my client just upgraded from RHEL 5.2 to RHEL 5.8, and things are working now.
I'm happy that it works, I'm still wondering though why it broke, and what I can do to ensure this doesn't happen in the future. Would static linking libgcc and libstdc++ be the answer?
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marzojr wrote:
Nach wrote:
marzojr wrote:
Windows is not involved at all here. Things are being compiled on RHEL5 and running on RHEL5.
Basically the same OS. Again, having paid more attention to what you wrote would have told me that. This rules out different exception models, so this would be a false lead. Sorry for that.
You said it is not a problem with functions declared with "throw(...)", and that the exception type in question is being caught in the catch block;
Um, I'm not sure where I said that. The problem is that any throw() in the entire program is not caught at all despite there being a try/catch for it. However every single throw is in the main code and not in any libraries, except for those built into libstdc++ for bad_alloc or at() range and so on.
Not a single function anywhere in the entire application mentions the throw style in its declaration. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, doing so is deprecated.
marzojr wrote:
so this leaves the constructor for the exception itself and the destructor of any objects that gets called when the exception is thrown. A difference in security policies could be responsible for the differences between the machines.
Okay, and what does a developer do about it?
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Acheron86 wrote:
There is some time saved by not having to watch the tower turning around when you pop in the key, as well as picking up the key and taking it to the tower. For a playaround, I'd say it'd be more entertaining to not get the key.
That I concur with. It'd also be entertaining to not get the flippers for this either.
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<TASVideoAgent> New topic by retardedhorse (General: Idea to tas windows games): http://tasvideos.org/forum/t/12599 [a:1]
<TASVideoAgent> New reply by rog (General: Idea to tas windows games): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/308833#308833 [a:1]
<TASVideoAgent> New reply by Nach (General: Idea to tas windows games): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/308834#308834 [a:1]
<natt> i agree with Nach, it seems like he might be referring to something hourglassey
<natt> but whatever it is, he certainly could never implement it
<Nach> he just gave me a great idea
<Nach> let's add rerecording support to FCEUX
<Nach> then we can make NES TASs
<tematric> can we do that?
<rog> tha would never work
<Nach> it should be theoretically possible
<Nach> think about it, it's an NES emulator
<KennyMan666> Wait wait
<Nach> it has save states already
<KennyMan666> Here's one
<natt> Nach: why do that when you can run fceux in hourglass in jpc?
<KennyMan666> Add a way to slow down the game too
<Nach> natt: hmm...
<Mothrayas> yay for layers of redundancy
<rog> you guys are crazy, that would never even work
<Nach> rog: do you have a better idea?
<natt> plus, if we make a TASing java VM, we can tas jpc itself
<rog> Nach: no. it's impossible
<Nach> well, we should be able to do something...
<rog> i doubt it
<tematric> I don't think you can add TAS features to a java VM
<tematric> you should run the java VM in a Linux VM
<Nach> what if we add it to the BIOS then?
<Nach> you flash your firmware, and your PC can now make TASs
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rog wrote:
That made no sense at all.
It's called HourGlass.
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The GNU libc library is definitely LGPL (well, at least according to wikipedia; I can't for the life of me find this info on the FSF's own website), so it's easy to assume that the same holds for libstdc++.
Finding the actual license for libstdc++ and libgcc seems to be particularly hard (I don't really understand why, given how adamant the FSF is about licenses).
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marzojr wrote:
And yes, passing a constructor that throws through libstdc++ might cause the problem.
The constructor doesn't throw.
throw(Error("text")); is what is being done. Error inherits from std::exception.
marzojr wrote:
Out of curiosity: would you be on Linux and cross compiling to Windows?
Windows is not involved at all here. Things are being compiled on RHEL5 and running on RHEL5.
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marzojr wrote:
If you are sending a binary to your client (instead of code to compile), and it works on other systems, then it is likely that it is a difference in the exception handling style between your machine and the clients (I should have paid slightly more attention to what you said). You can try running this:
gcc -dumpspecs | grep -o --color 'dwarf[1-4]'
and ask the client to do the same; if nothing is printed, then the exception style is sjlj. If there is a mismatch, this may cause the problem you describe if the exception is being thrown across one of the shared libraries (e.g., your code calls library code which calls your code which throws the exception).
Thanks, I will do that.
The only shared library which may throw an exception is libstdc++, do you think that may be the problem? Although the code is all self contained in main(), perhaps some object constructor is being passed through libstdc++ (or something similar) and causing the issue? The actual "throw" that is doing the throwning is found in main().
Edit
Would static linking libstdc++ and libgcc fix these problems?
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Acheron86 wrote:
It is possible to escape by playing the Ocarina's second song, but that would obviously take far more time to pick up than the key.
Is that certain? There are ridiculously fast ways of getting the Ocarina and song as well ;)
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marzojr wrote:
Are the functions declared with "throw()" or "throw(stuff)"?
Neither.
marzojr wrote:
Also, what type of exception is the program being compiled with, sjlj or dw3?
Whatever the default is on RHEL5.
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WST wrote:
Hmm try to compile it with -g gcc’s flag (and do not strip the executable) and run in gdb session. Then after crash you can make “bt full” and get traceback that may help you to debug the issue…
I can't use the client's machine. It's their machine.
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Acheron86 wrote:
-Having Bow-Wow, Marin, the Ghost, and the Chicken all with you at the same time
-Breaking the physics by screen warping out of a "side scroller" area (similar to what's done in Eagle's Tower, but for more than two screens)
-Duplicating items (easy way to max seashells!)
-L0 Shield and L2 Bracelet hallways
These are great.
Here's some other ideas:
-Getting Mambo's mambo by coming into it from a walking area, and not needing the flippers.
-Play the sign maze and read every sign, but get to the signs without the needed items, for example before getting the hookshot.
-Skip the beginning of the trading game, and beat the first 3 dungeons, Tarin will ask for your non existing stick to go get the beehive, and you'll get it.
-Go fight the eagle from the top of the screen early on before you're anywhere near up to Eagle Tower, and with your plain old sword. Then leave.
-Go back to Eagle Tower later after acquiring the Magic Rod AKA Flamethrower, proceed to the upper floors without destroying the pillars, and beat the guy again with this bats using one volley from the flamethrower. The out of order text is really funny, be sure to show it.
-Show off the shovel. Use it with Marin. Run in place. Play with Agahnim.
-Be funny, and teleport through boss doorways. So you see Link enter the boss's room, and the boss talks and complains, and then you press the edge direction, and you're in the instrument room. The same trick also works with the boss in the statue maze.
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Derakon wrote:
The lost time isn't really "lost" because it's a prerequisite of the route. You could as well say that e.g. Super Metroid 100% loses a lot of time compared to the any% because it goes out of its way to collect all those items. The time spent on those detours is still showing optimized play.
I know. Just some people like speed at all cost. I personally think the extra time spent is a bit more entertaining.
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Lex wrote:
Yes, but they make sense in the cutscene because he collected them.
Since when are TASs supposed to make sense?
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I watched this run as well as the previous. They look very similar.
Also response on the last run hasn't been great.
Do you think there should be two branches of this run? If just one, which branch do you prefer? I liked the Red Car Ranger being used, but for the most part there's not that much uniqueness between the runs.
This run is more optimal than the last, but seems to lose quite a bit of time in the later levels.
Thoughts?
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Patashu wrote:
Have you tried running it on the same computer but from a different shell (e.g. csh instead of bash)?
No, and it's not my computer, it's a clients.
The different shell may explain the changes to the shell script output which I should check, thanks. But the root problem here is why is the C++ exception not allowed to be caught?
I'm starting to wonder if perhaps I should be static linking. http://www.trilithium.com/johan/2005/06/static-libstdc/
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