Posts for TehBerral

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I have still, after months of reading threads pertaining to the tier system, have yet to figure out what this site has to gain from saying "hey, these runs are entertaining; these are not". All that this system does is put higher (or lower) value on certain movies based on a very, very, very small portion of the site user's views of "entertainment". (I say "small portion" because the - at most - 30 or so voters in the poll and the - usually - 3-5 people who will rate a movie is extremely small in comparison to the amount of users/contributors/viewers on this site.) As I said in another thread I really take issue with the wording on the Vault's info page where it refers to it as "the lowest publication tier". Last I checked a Vault was for the sake of preserving something, because it was worth preserving. Not a place to put something because it doesn't measure up to a very subjective sense of entertainment/value. Overall though, I think AKheon nailed how I feel about it through the use of a few words: "TASVideos has always been founded on a (narrow-minded) focus on entertainment". I swear this is the only speedrunning related site that gets so bogged down in what constitutes an entertaining run or not - forgetting, of course, that not only are newcomers and veterans and everyone in between entertained by different things, but also that simply seeing a game you love (obscure or not) TASed is where a lot of individual entertainment lies. I think trying to quantify entertainment - quite literally - categorically is flawed in many ways. Now I say this specifically for the runs that aim for speed (which is most of the runs). Entertainment-specific categories like playarounds are a different story. At the end of the day I think a goal-based tier system not only gets rid of subjectivity in a lot of cases, but it also makes the Vault not so damning of a place for an author to see their run published to. By making the Vault (or whatever equivalent) based on speed goals specifically, and making Moons (or whatever equivalent) into an entertainment based tier specific for playarounds, sports/board games or anything seen currently as "unvaultable" would make each tier desirable in some way rather than one being where you hope your run doesn't end up. That or say bollocks to the whole tier thing and navigate based on system/game to find a movie like any person with half a brain cell firing would do and just show the newest publications in a single, shorter list.
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Mine is part of the cover for Massive Attack's Heligoland album. (My favorite album of theirs.) I couldn't tell you why I chose it, but I've always liked the look of it. I was going to pick the alternate cover to Tyler, The Creator's "Goblin" which is oddly enough Buffalo Bill, but decided against it.
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Post subject: Re: Vault/Moon Tier Changes
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Archanfel wrote:
It kinda has to, it being a board game makes it unvaultable. Personally, I still don't know what trivial means if this isn't it.
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I would agree with those listed. Actually if I could get specific, I, having not watched any of the Battle Network runs, was surprised despite its length how entertaining it was.
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The problem i've had since before I registered with the site is the wording on the Vault info page. Specifically the wording "this is the lowest publication tier". I understand that there are some movies that will be more popular than others, but I think this wording can be taken very poorly by some people, especially newcomers. I do think that if the Vault's parameters were based around a goal (which is less subjective) in a sense of "this run was made and accepted for the Vault due to the author's intentional goal choices" it would look better overall. A run being published to the Vault should not be treated like a failure on the author's part to entertain if the movie is optimal. That's what I feel is most discouraging to see - to see a run you or someone else worked hard on treated with the overall notion of "meh, it's optimal. Shove it in the Vault". And why exactly do we need a section devoted to "collecting WR TASes". With that logic why are there restrictions on collecting? If this was a Baseball card collection that would be like saying "I collect Baseball cards, except third basemen; they're trivial". It's always felt odd, almost needlessly hierarchical, to me.
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The Mass Effect series (mostly 2) The Batman Arkham games (don't care so much about Origins) Bioshock Portal & Portal 2 Gears of War 2 (only 'cos that's the one I know best) Red Faction: Guerrilla Bastion Limbo And just for curiosity's sake X-Men: The Official Game (to know if it's as broken as the GBA version )
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I would nominate the GnG run but I do believe that an improvement is in the works so it could be moot depending on what the improvements look like. I'm kind of surprised to see it in the Vault, though. It's an infamously hard game made to look easy using arguably the hardest weapon to use for a large chunk of the game. I understand that "the Arcade version is preferable" was Adelikat's reason, but that shouldn't detract from the NES version in this case.
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Hmm, simple enough answer (although personally I find the BH work flow for GBA to be much, much more smooth). I'd be all for a boss rush branch. It makes sense - I'm actually surprised no one has submitted one yet, or at least that I know of. Sadly there aren't crits in this game so it won't be as over-the-top in dps as the harmony of Dissonance BR. But entertaining nonetheless.
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I just wanted to pose a question (I figured it'd be better posted here rather than in the submission poll of the All Souls TAS). Is there any reason why no one is using BizHawk for this game - if for nothing else, for accuracy? I realize almost all of the runs use SRAM to skip cutscenes, so is making a verification file the issue, or is there something else? I'm just curious if there's some technical hoo-hah I don't know about.
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I remember from the AVGN episode that you were only allowed to either run or hop to move (not both). How much slower is running by comparison - would simply running forward save you some time over the slight stops in between jumps? Besides that, I mean, how does the stage structure account for you not being able to jump at all? I imagine every number you'd want to grab would have to be in a straight line, otherwise how would you reach them? There's so many questions. Meh vote.
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Absolute yes vote! The constant zipping doubled with the insane amount of luck manipulation and tripled with the health management with the Lubicant soul has pushed this far, far away from anything remotely humanly possible. Personally, as much as I like the current publication, I think this should obsolete it. It's not only faster but also shows off much more in terms of precise movement tech (on a small note I like how you cancel the Hippogryph uppercut with the bat. Very SotN-esque). While I do feel that this run is more entertaining than the publication (a publication I really enjoy, I might add) I don't feel it's different enough to warrant a new category. The only thing that this run adds, in a sense, is a much more optimal way of moving around the castle rather than a different overarching run objective. As such, I feel putting this and Kriole's run side-by-side would be redundant. And I third what Invariel said. [edit] To be clear, I'm not gung-ho about obsoleting the current publication. I love them both (although I tend to prefer glitched runs personally). If this was, say, Super Metroid or SMB - games that I think are really pushing it when it comes to the number of branches - then I'd make more of a case for obsoletion. But if they were decided to be different enough then I'm not one to make a fuss. But I've offered my too many cents on why I feel it'd be redundant.
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I wanted to make an update to make specific mention of this room. In the next area of the game (the second section of the Pumpkin Patch) there are these invincible bugs that act as a screen timer. After a certain amount of time has passed the bug will stop Jack and grab him and make you restart the screen all over again. The only way to avoid this is to either stand underneath specific mushrooms that cast a shadow, keeping you safe from the bug. Or get out of the room within the time limit. This room in particular was hard to TAS. Link to video There is only six frames of leeway and it required pushing Jack's pixel position to a specific value so that he would grab the ledge a frame early. The only time I could feasibly adjust it was in the room before. Given the odd slope degrees the interval for turbo-hopping up the hills was odd (usually a jump every 4 frames or so). So by starting the uphill jump cycle at a specific time on each of the hills I was able to put Jack at an odd pixel position which would then allow him to grab the first ledge a frame sooner. Thankfully, this doesn't affect the next ledges since the climb animation resets his position to a set spot anyway. The point is, without this manipulation there's only about 5 frames of error (less than Bob Skip).
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thatguy wrote:
Actually, that's another reason I don't like the technical rating being purely a metric of effort. We already have one of those - it's called the re-record count.
The problem with that is that with the more frequent use of TASstudio which (last I checked) had an issue with recording too many rerecords. I don't know if that's fixed but it did present an issue. The other problem comes down to different TASing methods that could give an inaccurate rr count. As a personal example, I like to use multiple instances of BizHawk to test out different strats. This allows for easy side-by-side comparison while avoiding accidentally erasing over one of the strats. It's also useful for testing out RNG manipulation i've found. The issue, though, is that you only end up seeing the rerecords for the "final" strat and not all of the other tests that were done. The rerecord count by itself would give a fairly inaccurate view of the actual work.
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Cooljay, at 0:46 I swear it says "shit combo". Regardless, as others have said it looks very much like (suboptimal) human input and is much longer than previously posted runs with a less broken character (if you consider Jean Claude Van Damme not broken). I mean, Cammy, for instance, was blocking more attacks than she was taking. Besides which, most combos petered out at about 4 hits in most cases with the occasional 5 here and there. The game might have some potential to be interesting so I would encourage you to look farther into the game and continue TASing, most importantly, with frame advance in the future.
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I'm a fair way into the game at this point, but I still have a ways to go. So I figured I'd post an update. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25887288603037695 I also decided to make an encode real quick too. Link to video I'm still tweaking some things as I think I may be able to kill the last robot in lower Halloween town quicker, but I'm still working some things out in that regard. I'm also running into another problem I wasn't aware of before. Since I've been working on this TAS since very early into this year the version of BizHawk I'm using (1.9.4) has been made obsolete a couple times since. I wasn't too worried before but now every time I try to run the TAS through one of the newer versions of BizHawk it immediately crashes. I don't want post this in the BizHawk bug reporting thread just yet if this turns out to either be a bug/issue that is known that I'm not aware of or if this is a game-specific issue. I'd really like to continue this TAS as it is and avoid starting over and delay its completion yet again if I can.
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[Quote=Warp]Sure, there might have not been any big lawsuit case deciding that question, but it is my understanding that Nintendo does have the legal right to shut down let's play videos of their games, for the simple reason that those videos use too much material from their IP. The only reason why most other companies (with some exceptions) don't DMCA let's players is because they don't mind. They would probably have the legal right to do so, but they just don't, because that's their decision. However, that shouldn't be interpreted as let's play videos not infringing copyright.[/quote] I agree. Don't think I'm arguing otherwise. The issue I'm having is that what constitutes "too much" is too gray to argue for or against effectively. I call it "Andrew Oldham syndrome": say it's okay, even in writing, and then when it suits you, pull it and/or demand money because "too much" doesn't have any actual limits according to the law - at least in America, as others have mentioned it isn't like that everywhere. I have more issue with our copyright laws themselves and how companies will (ab)use them when it suits them rather than make a justification. I actually wouldn't have a problem if Nintendo consistently said "no. LPs, TASes or anything else that shows more than X amount of content is not allowed". Instead, they'll complain and take down videos and in a few months act like it never happened. In short, yes I'm aware that LPs and even TASes do infringe on copyright. I take issue though with vagueness of their complaints and inconsistent action. Can Nintendo take down whatever they want? Yes. Should they? That's up for debate.
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It's for a number of reasons. For one thing, yes, Nintendo (or any other company) does own their intellectual property. The question up for debate (that isn't specific to gaming and has been argued for decades in the music industry) is [I]how much[/i] do they own it and what rights do the general public have when it comes to exhibition - albeit for critical review or otherwise. This issue also extends to a customer's ownership of a product and how, in this case, making copies for varying reasons falls into that. All of these issues are incredibly complicated in the grand scheme of things and would require an extremely good expensive lawer(s). This isn't helped by the more insidious factor, which leads me to believe Nintendo is being more evil than stupid, is that they rarely go after any of the big name LPers/gaming sites who are the ones making substantial money out of it. Most of the cases of videos being removed or channels being taken down is against nobodies like you or me who don't have the money to hire the aforementioned lawer, and stand to lose a lot from losing such a case. Besides which, at least in the American copyright laws, there are way too many grey areas and most courts lean will lean towards the company with their shiny, happy legal team. Even if public opinion or even outright human morality disagrees (see: literally anything Disney or WMG has done)
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I've played Zool (great game, surprised no one has finished a TAS of it already) and I don't think it would hurt to use the hardest difficulty. The cool thing about the game is that the movement is fast and interesting enough to make picking up extra collectables possibly more fun to watch. Plus seeing as it's only five more per stage than normal it can't be that bad to collect. Good luck with the TAS!
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I'd like to just make an all-encompassing comment to sum up my thoughts on the matter. EDIT: certain recent discoveries have made a section of this original post irrelevant. I'll simply keep what still apllies. What some tend to forget is that it isn't really the TASer who has to "deal with it", it's the audience. As a TASer manipulating 100 optimal hits is the same as manipulating 10. But if an overly long boss fight grinds the flow of a movie to a hault then it's only hurting the movie's entertainment in the long run. The way I see it, if you don't keep the audience in mind, why are you submitting the run at all? (If you didn't care to some extent you'd simply keep the run for yourself). What I'm getting at is that there has to be a line between appeasing the "OMG itz on Death Mode!" crowd, and the people that want a fast-paced categorical decimation of a game that ultimately results in an impressive TAS. Yes, the game should be seen as a feat above what human hands can do (as per this site's motto) but that doesn't mean using, or demanding the use of any difficulty is always the answer. That is demanding either extreme. If we're going to use the "it's more difficult unassisted" argument, then I can say that from the perspective of RTA running I can't think of a single instance in which I've heard or seen a runner say something to the effect of: "the bosses patterns are the same as the ones I'm used to, but the extra health makes it much harder!". Muscle memory is a wonderful thing. If a boss doesn't change it's patterns, speed or anything else, most veteran RTA runners don't seem to be upset. The difficulty tends to come from other factors (health management, less frequent ammo drops, more spawning enemies or even enemies dealing more damage - not just that the enemies have more HP). I'm not speaking for all runners, but please show me an RTA runner that's a master at their game(s) who says otherwise. In sum: I think a case-by-case decision situation with guidelines rather than a hard and fast list of rules is the best. If there are questions, then let the runner(s) justify it (this for using hard mode as far as I'm concerned). If the audience is more entertained by a certain difficulty then it should be obvious which one to pick. If they find something entertaining in both (and both offer enough variety and can be justified well and agreed upon) then let them coexist. I don't think an easy mode run should obsolete a hard mode run, though. It strikes me as being much the same as using Japanese text to improve on an English run. But if a hard mode run that is undoubtedly better optimized, but is slower due in part to the difficulty (i.e. not slower due to optimization issues, obviously) then I think it should be able obsolete a normal or easy mode run that isn't as well optimized, or doesn't meet the run goal as well.
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Actually, Patashu, that would solve a lot of issues raised in this thread. If there was some sort of "liked TASes" list that they went to that would solve the issue of people wanting to go back to TASes that they liked easily, that'd be great. That would narrow rating down to one-click. Plus it gets rid of a lot of subjective nonsense - do you like it? Yes? Then click it! Simple as that. It also wouldn't need to send you to a different screen to vote. I have a question, though: what is the point of the 1-10 system we have now? The ratings don't decide the tier - that's already decided before publication. And they don't determine Stars being added - as mentioned in a different thread the considerations go farther than simple popularity. So is there any real need to have something as specific as the 1-10 system that I'm not aware of?
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I personally like option 2. Yes it would put work on the judges (I would argue not any more than usual) but I feel it forces both difficulties to justify themselves. If Hard mode is more entertaining then any reasoning by the author/community should be easy to understand. If entertainment suffers from extended boss fights etc. or needless repetitiveness caused by the harder difficulty then any such issues should be glaring enough to see immediately (ex: if a boss that usually takes 15 seconds takes a minute and a half on hard mode). On the Vault issue, I don't think the vault should be involved in this at all, really. If a run isn't entertaining, but optimal, it goes to the vault (in most cases). If a hard mode run comes along that is deemed to be more entertaining and just as optimal, then I think that's a situation too specific to make a hard and fast rule about. From what I've seen, if a run is unvaulted it's usually due to better movement tech that results in a more polished and entertaining run. I don't know of any situations in which hard mode alone resulted in such an entertainment bump that it magically made it into a Moon tier run.
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The issue I have is what exactly constitutes "technically difficult" differs depending on the person (and I try to keep this in mind when rating). Basically I'd be more impressed that a newbie TASer on their first submission is (effectively) using RAM search and reverse engineering methods than if, say, a veteran like Adelikat was. Maybe it's just me personally, but I just feel like no matter how complicated, if you've been doing it for years, any method would become commonplace, which only complicates the technical rating more. Regardless, a lot of that ends up being a moot point as I completely agree with Grincevent. Especially since I can say from experience that this below is true:
Grincevent wrote:
the hardest parts to optimize in a TAS are not necessarily the most impressive to watch
Which makes rating it even harder.
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Most fun song to play on bass [Video]https://youtu.be/iLqNUvVqpmI[/video]
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I second the PoR All Bosses run being starred. I love all of the Metroidvania runs and feel much the same way as Samsara, but I feel this one stands out to me in terms of variety out of the DS runs. Another run that I would say could be starred is the "all souls" DoS run, but it would seem a bit too similar to the currently starred AoS run (both were made by Kriole as well).
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L-Spiro wrote:
The lawsuits are related to the use of ROM’s, not fair-use, public display, commentary, etc.
Unless I missed something... what lawsuits exactly? I thought this was simply about encodes being taken down. Besides which that doesn't explain Nintendo throwing a hissy in the past when it came to LPs/reviews etc. Most of which were indeed recorded with real hardware.
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