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Well, I was speaking of the way it looks. In actual practice, I am sure it would be difficult to replicate.
It looks rather mundane. This isn't a lack of optimizations on your part but rather a problem with the TAS potential of the game.
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<adelikat?> anybody going to bring up the fact that we already have a tetris attack and shouldn't have 2 runs of the same game?
* JXQ inserts prince of persia argument \o\ /o/
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tmont wrote:
adelikat wrote:
The only compelling reason I can think of for reconsidering the verdict would be that the current run is trash and and this is one is played more optimally with more glitches, despite its greater length. No offense to TheAxeMan, but that run is pretty old, and it shows.
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I totally agree with most everything Phil just said. Simply beating the bad AI isn't enough to be interesting.
I liked the battle chess idea where you abuse the take back feature to move twice. That is certainly something you won't see in normal chess play (pro chess anyway). Unfortunately the CPU takes to long to move, it is just 20 minutes of waiting for the cpu to move.
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Bob A wrote:
I voted meh on account of that it violates the rule that the game should be played on the hardest difficulty when doing so is more entertaining.
It is pretty standard procedure to use normal difficulty if the only difference between the two is enemy HP/weapon damage. Hard mode should be used if there are more enemies, if they are faster, or something else taht changes the run beyond just hitting the boss more times.
I find normal mode a good choice here. Also, use abuse the game physics well and seem like you researched the game thoroughly.
Congratulations on having your first run accepted.
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Nice improvement to a famtasia run.
The game is pretty limited for entertainment value but I like how you did what you could be making jump the exact amount even if it didn't matter. Along the same lines, you got close to enemies even if it didn't matter, these helped make it a little more interesting to watch. Good. Job.
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Why?
A run doesn't have to have heavy luck manipulation but this particular one does not have anything else going for it but luck.
It is a reason brought up because someone suggested it as an interesting characteristic of the run that could make it publish worthy.
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Kles wrote:
No, seriously now. I watched this and while it seemed executed very well. While the level up grind was annoying, it's nothing a fast forward button or a jump ahead button in a movie can't fix.
This is a terrible justifcation for a run. Any run can be accepted if you skip enough it. A run is problematic if it needs to have large sections skipped like you suggest.
I highly disagree with adelikat's decision to reject this. It was mostly yes votes
While the votes were yes, they were hardly convincing ones. Many just wanted a cheated run replaced. Others said it was boring but was voted yes anyway. The response overall was weak.
I'll be honest - half the movies on this site are pretty boring if you haven't played the games.
popularity is an issue for what gets published (though certainly not the main one). Yes, for instance, legend of zelda would suck if you never played the game. But there are many who do know of the game and therefore find it interesting. It should be published. Oot is another fantastic example of a boring game with a huge following.
Also, to say that other runs are boring is never a good justification. Yes, there are some boring runs. But we don't want more of them.
Randil wrote:
A high rerecord count doesn't necessarily mean that a movie is well done. It probably is, but it doesn't have to be. In the same way, a low rerecord count doesn't necessarily mean that the movie is of low quality.
Randil, you totally missed the boat on what I was saying. I did not imply that the movie was sloppy in anyway. I think it is quite optimal. The point is that there isn't enough luck to manipulate. A low record count of course doesn't prove that there wasn't massive luck manipulation, but it is a reasonable assumption. And were aren't talking a little low. Comparable length rpg's have 10x more.
Chrono Trigger is a bad example as well. I don't think it shows anything impressive luck wise. I guess it is just really popular too.
Kles wrote:
f it's possible I'd reconsider your rejection of this.
It is certainly possibly for me to reconsider the verdict of a submission, but I haven't heard any compelling reason to do so.
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I tested the tank death and it costs only about 75 frames per death. Though it will also cost some time on the lv5 boss and possibly lv6 boss due to not having a spread gun.
After all these considerations, I now think I should die and avoid killing the tanks. 1) It is more in line with the goals of the run 2) It is creative and unexpected. 3) It is the "ultimate sacrifice" (dying rather than kill something)
So I am cancelling and redoing. The new run will probably be 4-8sec longer than this. (BTW, I am not excited about the idea of redoing a run to make it LONGER :P)
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*disclaimer 1: a lot of my comments here are responses to posts in the harmony of dissonance split off thing. The issues brought up there were intended to go here
*disclaimer 2: I believe that the site has been getting better and better over time. My intent with bringing up complaints is because I want it to improve further. I hope that discussion will bring ideas and action to these issues
1) I agree there is favortism for some runs over others. Some argue that megaman games ARE or AREN'T getting preferential treatment but this sides steps the issue somewhat. The issue is that a run will get submitted and accepted and sit for long periods of time, while other runs are published much quicker. I think this is a problem. With limited resources, it is understandable that a hot new sonic improvment gets bumped to the top of the priority list but I think that more emphasis needs to be placed on older submissions.
Look at it from a potential new TASers standpoint. He submits a run and it is well received and accepted. Then it is published over a year later. That could turn off potential new TAS contributers. That is a loss to the site.
2) I agree with JXQ that the encoding pages I have read come off as condescending. I fully understand and agree with Bisqwit, that independent creative people are desired to fill the much needed encoding manpower. But this could be expressed in a more "inspiring others to learn" way rather than a "we don't really want you to help" kind of way.
In general, the site has this "if you don't already know, don't bother us" attitude". This could be improved.
3) The main issue here is a lack of manpower on the encoding & publishing side of thing, resulting in a bottleneck. I don't want to suggest that current publishers do more work due to the strain this would cause on them. This is their hobby, and at the current pace of good publication-worthy submission, current publishers would be quite busy just to break even.
I do agree with JXQ's points about "wasted effort". In light of the lack of manpower and increasing submission queue, seeing a run encoded by multiple publishers (oot, mario 120stars) brings up a little resentment. Again, this is their hobby. A better solution would be to have more manpower, and allow people to encode "for fun" and do as they please.
4) As of this post, both I and Maza have been granted publisher status. And already we have 2 runs published, one of which was the current oldest submission in queue. Perhaps this will be enough to at least keep pace with the current out put from our TASers.
5) The RESULTS I would like to see from this site is a submission queue of 10-15 submission, half of which are accepted and on route to being published. None of the accepted submissions are more than a few weeks old unless there is some encoding problem that arises specifically to that submission. The undecided ones will vary in age since some will require more debate and considerations.
I'd like to see all this happen without long term strain & demands on the publishers as this is all a hobby that we all do for fun.
I'd like to see solutions work towards this goal.
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This is a nice improvement. I was entertained throughout and it looks polished.
This game seems looks like it is very difficult to optimize. Especially boss fights.
Anyway, yes vote.
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JXQ wrote:
Well let it be known that I do appreciate your efforts, as well as other encoders, but that doesn't mean there aren't any problems in the process, which is why I posted at the other thread (and I have been feeling that way for much longer than this incident).
I apologize for jumping to conclusions on why you encoded an already encoded movie. However, this doesn't change my feelings in the other thread.
Seconded. This issue is older and more global than this one publication.
I am glad to see you on a publishing spree. It just happens to coincide with an expression of discontent that has been brewing for a long time.
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When Truncated and I became judges, the queue was up to 100+ submissions; almost all of which were undecided. We brought that down to about 20ish accepted submission. As it got "cleaned out" I noticed much more votes/response on the remaining ones. Now I see that slowly climbing back up but with accepted submissions. I see that turning people away from voting and commenting on the runs. I can see how someone wouldn't care much about voting if the run is going to sit there for 6 months-year even after being accepted.
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The training course was awsome. Definately worth adding into the run.
I think you did a good job adding variety & action into this game. Enough to make me vote yes :)
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Looking good. A game like this needs to have maximum variety which you are achieving well so far. For the remaining days, I recommend going out to the street a little more. It is more impressive to hit targets from afar. The few times you did that were some of my favorite moments.
Also, is it just me or was there a little bit of lag at the beginning of tuesday when the tornado on screen? If so, perhaps you could refrain from throwing so many papers during that time.
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I was suprised to read the frame savings of each level. It felt like so much more. Over all this run seems much more polished over the previous run. So many little details were thought through.
The death glitches were awsome. First mm now rm2 have death as a shortcut, crazy.
(yes vote)
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qFox wrote:
Dying is "not done" in tas. There are quite some (popular) games in which dying to save time is a highly debated topic.
Dying is quite common in the TASes on this site. And those who disagree with it are for the most part in the minority.
Personally, I am entertained by a creative use of death to save time.
In this case he does not die, and he loses no lives.
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falling in the water in level 1 is definatley slower.
With any 2 player run I will do, I will strive to make the 2 characters looks as independent as possible and take different routes when it doesn't cost time.
