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persistance & frustration paid off. I re-did chapter one and I gained another 10 seconds. all 10 seconds were saved with better optimizations getting critcals and dodging attacks faster. the longest I have to wait to get the action I want is 30 frames. On average they are under 10 frames! This makes the run ALOT more polished looking.
And I accomplished my goal of getting chapter 1 under 10 min with a final time of 9 min 54 sec.
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My new methods aren't working as expected. Until I figure out more about the affect of different button presses and how it relates to criticals, this run is on HOLD.
Heres what I know so far:
example scenario: Ragnar fighting a babble (1st encounter in my new run).
babble attacks for 3 damage.
when the cursor appears AFTER dealing the damage I savestate.
At that moment any 1 of the 8 buttons can be pushed to advance to the next action which will be ragnar attacking himself. All 8 buttons have a different affect on the amount of damage that ragnar will do. Also the value doesnt seem to be determined until the 6th frame after I push a button. That gives my 5 frames of button pushes to re-seed the random number generator. So any combination of these buttons in that time will alter the result.
Theoretically this gives me more than enough possiblities to get a critical on the 1st frame of the attack. In practice this may not be the casej. Its difficult to tell because there is only 3 different damage point he can do in this case: 5,6,7. So frequently a different button combination will have identical result. But sometimes is seems clear that the random number is not changing such as:
holding left 1 frame, 2 fr, 3 fr, 4 fr, 5 fr, might all yield the same number
left,right,left might be different though. but not other combinations of left right. So its all confusing and finding a systematic method of checking every possible outcome is difficult.
Also, the different damage values may not affect criticals at all. The number used for determining a critical is probably different from the one that determines damage and it might not be affected by button pushes.
In summary, manipulating normal damage and dodging attack can now be done on the 1st frame possible. But criticals might be another story.
Unfortunately this will only save a few seconds in the entire movie (as opposed to criticals which would potential save many minutes)
I will look into it further but I would appreciate any assistance in figuring out whats going on
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I think I might redo chp 1 again, since I have a new luck manipulation strategy.
As of right now I have a luck manipulation sytem, that gives me 128 possiblilites for the FIRST frame possible! then another 128 on the 2nd frame and so forth.
Due to this, there should be no problem getting a critical (1/64) on the 1st frame, and at most the 2nd or 3rd frame. This also includes doding enemy attacks, getting treasure drops, manipulating enemy actions, character actions, and taloons antics! This mean that all the wait time in the entire movie will be wiped clean!
[edit] unfortunately this method does not work for the 1st action in a battle round. I have only 8 options per frame. Put thats still 1/8 of the wait time for that action. Also I can make sure the 1st action is a "more likely" thing to happen. Easy enough in chp 5 since It will be easy to make alena go 1st (and its no problem getting her criticals)
In addition, I can manipulate enemy encounters to be every other square. So far I don't have a reliable way of getting them at every encounter (this is only relevant in chp 3)
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Ok my site has been updated and now has the verson 2 .fcm. It completes Chp1 and a little bit of chp 2
Ryan, I appreciate any comments you have, but I recommend that you watch the new version of chp 1.
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Yes to get the town to grow fully, all you have to collect the red, greed, blue, and purple orbs.
Perhaps a power cycle or reset could help in manipulating enemy encounters in the game as well?
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Bag of magic food is correct:
title screen = 20frame improvement
1st enemy=ANOTHER 20 frame improvement
2nd enemy= ANOTHER 29 frames
69 frames total
On each of the next 2 enemy groups I lost frames, by the time I enter the boss room I'm down 329 frames. Thats as far as I got.
Sorry for any confusion
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I wonder if the poison needle works against bosses in this game.
Maybe even baramos or zoma! Probably not, but you never know.
Soldiers way worse fighters since they are incredibly slow. Even with the best weapons their attacks aren't that much better.
There are two places to get premuim weapons though.
1)Boss Troll in Samonao leaves the thor's sword
2) Mimic leave the demon axe
Without good luck manipulation in fights though, its going to take a lot of patience and amazing planning. Particularaly the very unfair HP regeneration of Kandar II, orochi, baramos, and zoma.
kandar = 50 hp per turn
orochi = 75
barmos + zoma = 100
Plus the boss trolls and several random enemies have it as well.
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I've posted this topic due to the the game being brought up on the other dragon warrior topics.
DW3's random generator is very different from the other 3. You can't manipulate luck in battles. If you reload at the beginning of a battle and take the same actions, the same results happen regardless of your timing.
So far, I haven't found any method of manipulating criticals the way they are in the DW4 or DW1 runs. This would mean relying on a lot of leveling up and getting lucky.
Also, in caves it is not possible to avoid enemy encounters by delaying or pressing random buttons.
On the overworld it is very possible to avoid enemies but with noticable delays. The random number generator is re-seeded very slowly (seems it is once a second rather than once per frame).
If luck could be manipulated like in the other DW games then this would be an 1hr - 1 1/2 hr vid, but due to these problems I can't imagine this being under 3 1/2 hrs.
Of course if anyone wants to look into this, by all means do so. Maybe there are some unconventional ways of getting some good results.
As for the party selection, there is no question: Hero and 3 fighters. This is the most fierce party possible. the fighters will get many more criticals and will almost always attack first. Get the meteorite armband for the Hero and all 4 characters will be strong attackers who always act 1st. No need for heal spells because the enemies wont last long enough to do any damage!
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Spoony_Bard wrote:
(any chance of DW3 some time after this? :D)
Definately, but DW3 very problamatic for time-attacking. Its probably not possible to make a publishable movie out of it. Which sucks because it is my favorite of the series.
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I just downloaded the .fcm myself and played it with no problems. It is most likely that you have a different version of the rom despite the file size being the same. Try finding a different rom and see if that works
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are counting just the enemy group? because I also saved 20 frames (according to my notes) on just the titile screen.
Also 2nd enemy group I gained 29 frames
next 2 groups I lost frames but it was just a test run.
good luck
There should be significant improvement!
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Finished chapter 1 with a final time of 10 min 4 sec, 1 min 51 sec ahead of my 1st run. I haven't uploaded the .fcm yet. I will do that tomorrow.
Where I saved time:
1) Used death to quickly return from Izmut to Burland after meeting Alex, saved about 30 sec
2) Used death to exit the cave quicker (Note: in the run you see me walk for a long time before running into an enemy, this is because there are no enemy encounters along the "right" path. That is, the path that you are led along. I get into a fight on the 1st square that has enemies.
Saved about 20 sec (also saved time because I dont pick up the agility seed)
Both of these involve having ragnar critical hit himself. Personal I find this hilarious.
3) equipped sword of malice in battle (a few frames saved at most)
4) I've figured out a method to greatly reduce the wait time for getting criticals and dodging enemy attacks. you will notice that is about 20-50 frames instead of 100 or more. In future battles, I found a way to reduce this to 1-10 frames. this should save many minutes throughout the course of this run.
5) On every boss fight ragnar went last regardless, so in this run I made sure to not get any agility. Getting a stat bonus for one stat takes 56 frames. You will see that raganar never gets agility, luck, or int, since none of them are relevant. In doing so I had to sacrifice some strength and some HP (hp shouldn't matter though)
This saved about 10-20 seconds total
6) After exiting the the tower I used the flying shoes to transport me to the top of it so I could jump off. this allowed me to walk to izmut and use my wings to return to burland. This saved about another 15-20 sec.
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Well naturally my run would be unbeatable ;)
But seriously, I may not even do it now. My plan was to finsih my rough run through of DW4, take a break from that game to do this run. then do a final DW4 run. But I can't seem to get away from the game so I ive started the final version. I won't get this game at least until that is done. My post was to give someone else the opportunity to make it. If no one else does, I'll do it after my DW4 run (which might be awhile!)
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I've doing some planning for an improved version of this game. I've done some testing and anticipate about a 10-15 second improvment.
most of that was from Using death as a shortcut in 2 places (only 2 because you only get 3 lives!)
1st place: in the cave of mission 3 where the BLUE stalagtites fall. By jumping off the ledge before it starts scolling you will die, but appear at the bottom next to where the abobo appears. My rough calculations showed that this was about 300 frames faster.
2nd place: mission 4 after the 1st chin fight. Theres a break in the floor before the abobo. By jumping in as soon as possible you will appear right on the climable way. This saved about 250 frames.
In addition, the linda fight in the final room could be faster by using the elbow 1 time as soon as they appear. By getting in a few extra punches I could get the elbow attack in time to do this, that should save a little time.
I'm mainly posting this because I haven't been able to do much. If someone once to take these ideas and make the run themselves I won't be upset since I don't have as much enthusiasm for the run as I though I would.
I my test run of mission 1, I was up 20 frames on the 1st enemy group and another 15 for the 2nd, so there is definately room for improvement overall.
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Spoony_Bard wrote:
I DO have one question, though, maybe you addressed it already. Would it be possible to move Brey's position up in the wagon? Up to the slot just under the four party members? There's certainly a lot of frames spent scrolling down to him, and it might be negated by the frames spent moving him up. Of course, if you're killing him off earlier in the final version it may not matter.
Other than that... what was up with Alena's strange movements in the Final Cave?
I probably will move him up, If I keep him for any length of time. As for alena's movements thats just the way the game handles the party as you move in against walls. I put some effort to show off the weird things that can result, whenever possible. I'm glad someone noticed!
Anyway, I thought I was going to take a break but I can't seem to get away from this game! I played for a few hrs today and I already at the boss of chapter 1.
At that point I am up 3777 frames. Which I guess is about 1 min 3 seconds? I anticipated about another minute of improvements before the end of the chapter.
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TheAxeMan wrote:
Ok, watched through this to the end. You've got some great ideas, but I don't think it's ready to submit yet. There's a ton of known improvements, probably enough in the first 4 chapters alone to get this under 2 hours.
agreed
You should kill off Cristo, and maybe Brey after he outlives his usefulness. It's very painful to watch them levelup.
agreed, I have it my notes. Leveling a character even 1 level takes a while. Once My hero has enough MP, brey will be gone. I will have to transfer him into the party to take him out, but It should be faster anyway. I didn't anticipate them leveling up during boss fights in dungeons. Since I didn't have the wagon I assumed they would be XP's.
You end up staying at the inn in Monbaraba to talk to Panon. However, would it be faster to use the lamp of darkness, letting dawn come as you travel?
actually I should have walked to monbaraba after beating keelon. Had I done that I would have been day when I need to talk to panon, I wont need the lamp at all! Also It would have saved time later (though at the moment I'm forgetting why, but Its buried in my notes somewhere).
To avoid cluttering your hero's item list, you could rotate the front character.
Possibly, but not getting the feather hat and treasure map will also help alot. If I do it properly it may not be necessary. If I do rotate, I will have to make sure to change the party order inside a cave or town since the list will be shorter.
It would be faster to just put the hero and Panon in the party for Stancia. Then before entering Zenithian Castle, set up your final party so you don't have to hear Lucia whine about being glad to be home.
yep, already in my notes.
By the way, I thought it was neat that you could just jump in the cloud hole, I thought you would have to talk to Master Dragon for some reason.
my 2nd favorite part of the movie! Talking to the dragon blesses your sword so that it is more powerful (and also he gives you some XP's)
My favorite is leaving cristo in jail in gardenbur. Unfortunately he shows back up in the party after I leave the city, but it still makes me laugh anyway.
In the Radimvice battle, could you expel the demighouls?
didn't even consider that! Hopefully expel will work on them.
Damn that would have made that fight easier! I guess I got locked into the habit of just hacking everything to bits every turn.
I know you said that Balzack was faster with three people because of his breath attack, but what if Taloon incapacitated him every turn? You'd probably have more turns because Taloon won't be fighting, but it will probably be faster overall.
Thats one of a couple battle optimizations im considering. The only problem is that the bosses have HP regeneration. Each one regenerates at least 50hps at the end of every round. Because of this, it is important to do as much damage as possible. Otherwise the best method would probably do all the bosses with Alena only. Like in your FF run, One on one battles are generally faster and easier to manipulate.
Also, the merchant army is a slow process, takes several seconds for them to enter and dissappear. And early on taloon has no weapon so their attacks aren't very powerful anway. So taloon role might be to just sweep legs every turn.
the other thing that I noticed later on is that getting my charatcters to "dodge nimbly" is often faster despite have to wait so many frames for it to happen since the taking damage animation is so slow.
also, brute forcing taloon to get a critical will probably always be faster than having him "trip". Since that requires more text and some long delays.
My estimate for the new run are:
chp 1-4: 11 minutes improved
chp 5: 16-20 minutes improved
this should put me well under the 2 hr mark.
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This run look great, excellent job.
I really like how the bats didn't get in your way, that was my own real comlaint about previous runs.
Getting Warmech to show up was icing on the cake!
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http://www.adelikat.com/Temp
It done!
Final Time 2:26:07
Check it out.
I'll be taking some time off from this game before doing my final version. In the mean time feel free to post any improvements you might notice. Don't hold back!
I'm thinking of submitting this run since I will probably be a long time before the final version is completed.
Of course if someone comes up with a program that will predict criticals then I will completed MUCH sooner ;)
Anyway, If enough people say to submit it, then I will.
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Just thought I'd post an update. I just got to necrosaro!
Now that I have a sword of miracles for taloon, I should rip him a new one with no problem. I'll post the finished run as soon as it is completed!
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daniayaw wrote:
anyone planning to work on this ?!
If no one has done it by the time I get around to it, I will do it. But its pretty far down on my list. DW4 is going to take a very long time and after that I plan on doing the 1st double dragon and dw1.
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TheAxeMan wrote:
That is interesting. I wonder if you could have one player knee the other across the water while jumping in, and then he catches up when he comes back to life.
