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Well naturally my run would be unbeatable ;)
But seriously, I may not even do it now. My plan was to finsih my rough run through of DW4, take a break from that game to do this run. then do a final DW4 run. But I can't seem to get away from the game so I ive started the final version. I won't get this game at least until that is done. My post was to give someone else the opportunity to make it. If no one else does, I'll do it after my DW4 run (which might be awhile!)
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I've doing some planning for an improved version of this game. I've done some testing and anticipate about a 10-15 second improvment.
most of that was from Using death as a shortcut in 2 places (only 2 because you only get 3 lives!)
1st place: in the cave of mission 3 where the BLUE stalagtites fall. By jumping off the ledge before it starts scolling you will die, but appear at the bottom next to where the abobo appears. My rough calculations showed that this was about 300 frames faster.
2nd place: mission 4 after the 1st chin fight. Theres a break in the floor before the abobo. By jumping in as soon as possible you will appear right on the climable way. This saved about 250 frames.
In addition, the linda fight in the final room could be faster by using the elbow 1 time as soon as they appear. By getting in a few extra punches I could get the elbow attack in time to do this, that should save a little time.
I'm mainly posting this because I haven't been able to do much. If someone once to take these ideas and make the run themselves I won't be upset since I don't have as much enthusiasm for the run as I though I would.
I my test run of mission 1, I was up 20 frames on the 1st enemy group and another 15 for the 2nd, so there is definately room for improvement overall.
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Spoony_Bard wrote:
I DO have one question, though, maybe you addressed it already. Would it be possible to move Brey's position up in the wagon? Up to the slot just under the four party members? There's certainly a lot of frames spent scrolling down to him, and it might be negated by the frames spent moving him up. Of course, if you're killing him off earlier in the final version it may not matter.
Other than that... what was up with Alena's strange movements in the Final Cave?
I probably will move him up, If I keep him for any length of time. As for alena's movements thats just the way the game handles the party as you move in against walls. I put some effort to show off the weird things that can result, whenever possible. I'm glad someone noticed!
Anyway, I thought I was going to take a break but I can't seem to get away from this game! I played for a few hrs today and I already at the boss of chapter 1.
At that point I am up 3777 frames. Which I guess is about 1 min 3 seconds? I anticipated about another minute of improvements before the end of the chapter.
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TheAxeMan wrote:
Ok, watched through this to the end. You've got some great ideas, but I don't think it's ready to submit yet. There's a ton of known improvements, probably enough in the first 4 chapters alone to get this under 2 hours.
agreed
You should kill off Cristo, and maybe Brey after he outlives his usefulness. It's very painful to watch them levelup.
agreed, I have it my notes. Leveling a character even 1 level takes a while. Once My hero has enough MP, brey will be gone. I will have to transfer him into the party to take him out, but It should be faster anyway. I didn't anticipate them leveling up during boss fights in dungeons. Since I didn't have the wagon I assumed they would be XP's.
You end up staying at the inn in Monbaraba to talk to Panon. However, would it be faster to use the lamp of darkness, letting dawn come as you travel?
actually I should have walked to monbaraba after beating keelon. Had I done that I would have been day when I need to talk to panon, I wont need the lamp at all! Also It would have saved time later (though at the moment I'm forgetting why, but Its buried in my notes somewhere).
To avoid cluttering your hero's item list, you could rotate the front character.
Possibly, but not getting the feather hat and treasure map will also help alot. If I do it properly it may not be necessary. If I do rotate, I will have to make sure to change the party order inside a cave or town since the list will be shorter.
It would be faster to just put the hero and Panon in the party for Stancia. Then before entering Zenithian Castle, set up your final party so you don't have to hear Lucia whine about being glad to be home.
yep, already in my notes.
By the way, I thought it was neat that you could just jump in the cloud hole, I thought you would have to talk to Master Dragon for some reason.
my 2nd favorite part of the movie! Talking to the dragon blesses your sword so that it is more powerful (and also he gives you some XP's)
My favorite is leaving cristo in jail in gardenbur. Unfortunately he shows back up in the party after I leave the city, but it still makes me laugh anyway.
In the Radimvice battle, could you expel the demighouls?
didn't even consider that! Hopefully expel will work on them.
Damn that would have made that fight easier! I guess I got locked into the habit of just hacking everything to bits every turn.
I know you said that Balzack was faster with three people because of his breath attack, but what if Taloon incapacitated him every turn? You'd probably have more turns because Taloon won't be fighting, but it will probably be faster overall.
Thats one of a couple battle optimizations im considering. The only problem is that the bosses have HP regeneration. Each one regenerates at least 50hps at the end of every round. Because of this, it is important to do as much damage as possible. Otherwise the best method would probably do all the bosses with Alena only. Like in your FF run, One on one battles are generally faster and easier to manipulate.
Also, the merchant army is a slow process, takes several seconds for them to enter and dissappear. And early on taloon has no weapon so their attacks aren't very powerful anway. So taloon role might be to just sweep legs every turn.
the other thing that I noticed later on is that getting my charatcters to "dodge nimbly" is often faster despite have to wait so many frames for it to happen since the taking damage animation is so slow.
also, brute forcing taloon to get a critical will probably always be faster than having him "trip". Since that requires more text and some long delays.
My estimate for the new run are:
chp 1-4: 11 minutes improved
chp 5: 16-20 minutes improved
this should put me well under the 2 hr mark.
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This run look great, excellent job.
I really like how the bats didn't get in your way, that was my own real comlaint about previous runs.
Getting Warmech to show up was icing on the cake!
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http://www.adelikat.com/Temp
It done!
Final Time 2:26:07
Check it out.
I'll be taking some time off from this game before doing my final version. In the mean time feel free to post any improvements you might notice. Don't hold back!
I'm thinking of submitting this run since I will probably be a long time before the final version is completed.
Of course if someone comes up with a program that will predict criticals then I will completed MUCH sooner ;)
Anyway, If enough people say to submit it, then I will.
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Just thought I'd post an update. I just got to necrosaro!
Now that I have a sword of miracles for taloon, I should rip him a new one with no problem. I'll post the finished run as soon as it is completed!
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daniayaw wrote:
anyone planning to work on this ?!
If no one has done it by the time I get around to it, I will do it. But its pretty far down on my list. DW4 is going to take a very long time and after that I plan on doing the 1st double dragon and dw1.
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TheAxeMan wrote:
That is interesting. I wonder if you could have one player knee the other across the water while jumping in, and then he catches up when he comes back to life.
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Has anyone considered making the two player run in mode b instead of a?
Mode b is the one where the two player can do damage to each other.
At 1st this seems that is would only slow things down but I was thinking about it today. With mode B, player 2 could use a flying knee to propel player 1 across the screen. There are several places where this could save time. Many times the enemies don't come onto the screen unto one player walks far enough to the right.
For example:
Stage 5 right after jumping over river,
player 2 who is trailing behind could flying knee player one onto the platform with the vines on it. It would get the enemies on the screen quicker.
I saw several other spots where in Phil's run where this could be useful. I also noticed that the two players wouldn't get in each other's way as much as I thought. They are usually on opposite sides of the screen when fighting enemies.
Also, It would be cool, during wait times to have them beat the crap out of each other!
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I think you have to have all the magic containers to get the thunder spell
Also, you need to have either 5 or 6 (cant remember which one) to get the reflect spell. So I think you have to get all magic containers.
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Randil wrote:
This movie gets a YES vote from me. It was pretty amazing that you were so fast that the screen couldn't keep up with you. Good job!
I noticed that you recorded this movie with the ROM Marble Madness (U) [o1].nes. It worked fine with the ROM Marble Madness (U).nes too, I was just surprised that you recorded it with a [o1] ROM.
thanks
As far as the ROM, How do I find out which one it is?
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Randil wrote:
And another question, is it possible to manipulate luck in order to make the enemies drop a P-bag more often?
Every 5th or 6th (can't remember which one) small enemy and every 5th or 6th large enemy you kill will always drop a magic container or a p-bag. It is always possible for it to be a p-bag, but it is not possible to get them any more often.
what I mean by small enemy is those blob things, or any other low point enemy. Large enemies would be boomerang guys, or the guys with the axe or any other "large" creature. (sorry I don't know what any of them are called)
I hope this makes sense.
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Bag of Magic Food wrote:
What pickups are helpful in this game again? Would it be worth anything to pick up NINTENDO, if for nothing else than to show off the other car designs?
getting the NENTENDO is a must! the final car goes SOOO MUCH faster and handles so much better than the others. You would loose a lot of time sticking with the truck.
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i tried doing a time-attack for this game awhile back.
The main problem is that it never ends. You could say level 24 is the last level, but you could also make a case for 48 since when it repeats the enemy cars become insanely fast. after 48 it never changes.
Personally, I'd like to see a time-attack for this game. I quit because of the difficulty of playing in slow motion. Its hard to tell how much momentum you have and whether or not you are "skidding" during turns. Of course that was with famtasia, I'm sure frame advance will help with that.
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thanks for the codes, I just wanted to see if it worked on any lesser "bosses" (like the ones guarding esturk)
I haven't updated the WIP yet, but I just defeated Esturk, got the balloon and aquired the zenthian hemlet. I am currently right at 2 hours.
Now all that remains is getting the shield, sword, enter the zenthian tower, and head for necrossaro. I estimate that the movie will end up around 2hrs 40 min.
If I remember correctly I won't have another required battle until the 4 guardians in the underworld. My plan is to take out the one that leaves the sword of lethargy. that should be really helpful for taloon since he still has no weapons or armor!
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The .fcm file looks good so far. I can't wait to see death mountain!
I don't see any errors. It would be nice if you didn't have to stop on the overworld map though.
BTW, Do you plan on getting the candle?
The fairy glitch can definately be used a couple of places in palace 3 & 4. I'll have to go back and figure out where it can save time. I was looking into it back before the 6min Zelda movie. Back before anybody knew it could be used to skip the entire game.
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Randil wrote:
Personally, I don't really care if I use it or not. As of right now, you don't want me to use it and adelikat wants me to use it. So perhaps we should wait and see what other people have to say about this matter. After all, there will still be awhile in the run before I'm even able to use the jump + fairy glitch anyway.
using this glitch would change the run from almost the very beginning. As you see in the .fcm file when you exit palace one you end up at palace 2. Using this glitch you could
skip palace one.
get jump, & fairy spell
Go to palace 2,
glitch into palace 1.
complete palace 1.
walk out and immediately back in to return to palace 2.
beat palace 2.
This would save you the time it takes to walk to and from palace 1. I tested it and it takes at least 48 seconds to make that walk.
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http://www.adelikat.com/Temp
on this page is the .fcm file for the fairy glitch
One thing I forgot to mention: once you use the fairy spell you have to press up in order to make link fall.
In recording this .fcm I stumbled on to something very interesting. All other times I've tried this I ended up somewhere else in the palace, typically at the beginning screen but stuck in the wall, making it useless.
In this case I ended up in palace 1! Notice when you watch it. The color scheme is still blue like the 2nd palace, but I've been tranported to the 1st!
This seems to be a more powerful glitch than I thought.
I do think you should use it because this glitch could easily be done by a human on the regular console with a regular controller. (as opposed to the super-glitched run)
[edit]
This glitch works on any screen that has an open roof and a ledge that allows you to jump off of the screen. Where you end up depends on where in the screen you use the glitch. jumping to the left one square might send you to a completely different screen. If you are going to use this, experminent and find all the possiblities of each screen.
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jump + fairy spell glitch:
use jump spell, find a high ledge and jump until link is completely off of the screen. At that time use the fairy spell.
If successful, link will "fall" and end up in a random place.
The most famous example is in darunia. Get on top of a tall house and do it and you will end up in a glitched town. Walk out of that town and you will be out in the middle of the ocean on the world map, unable to move.
In palaces this can be performed in several places. Usually you end up in the room under the one you were in. (As though you fell through a hole in the floor). This has several applications where you could save time.
I hope that makes sense. If not I could try to make a quick .fcm file to demonstrate it.
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are you considering doing the jump + fairy spell glitch? Its fairly standard (been around awhile at least) and hasn't been exploited. The left+right glitch made it obsolete and usesless for a glitched run.
Anyway, palace 3 and 6 have some places that could save time doing this.
