54 people thought it was an entertaining movie, so it must be fairly interesting. Playing the encode back at a faster speed wouldn't change the number of frames needed to complete the game with the least number of A presses. And it's not possible to playback the TAS on hardware at a non-hardware speed.
This might be an unpopular opinion here, but speed is just one thing I consider about entertainment. One of the things I liked about the SMB3 tas by Tompa is that it earned 100 lives.
There was a long debate between the people that wanted to cut that out because it's an extraneous goal. But I think that loses sight of what TAS videos is all about. It's about fun.
Getting 100 lives in SMB3 is a part of the fun. It's fun seeing mario stomp on all the cannonballs, and the cool tricks needed to be used. The goal of 100 lives doesn't detract from the run, it enhances it.
The other thing I try to look at is, "what is the spirit of the run?" Why was it made? What were they trying to achieve?
Everyone is entitled to their own entertainment standard. There are also historically significant runs that create techniques that are then used on other games. Like the SMW Arbitrary Code Execution etc. If your run debuts a new technique, I'm interested! And I will vote yes on it, because I think it's important that these techniques be documented here.
Why did I vote yes on this run? Lots of reasons.
1, is this run technically precise? Absolutely! Is it flawless and unimprovable? No, but that doesn't take away from the precision.
2. is this run humanly possible? No. Again, that's a point in it's favor.
3. Is this run on a significant game? Yes.
4. Is the path that the TAS uses obvious? No.
5. Does it showcase a significant portion of the game and beat it at it's hardest difficulty? Yes.
I think 4 is the best reason to vote for this TAS. The path that it uses to beat the game is NOT obvious, and improvements were being made even as the video was in production. That shows to me that there is significant work 'underneath the hood', and that this is a category worthy of a TAS.
That doesn't mean I'm going to vote no on a 'run right for justice run', if that is the fastest way to beat a game. I can't fault a runner for working with what he has to work with. But if a game has subtlety inside it that this particular run draws out, then I'm into that.
But YMMV! I just wanted to explain my thought process behind my yes vote.
If the current 'glitchless' run is faster, it should be submitted and should obsolete the 2010 movie. When we have a 'glitched' run that is faster then the glitchless, then we can have the discussion over moving glitchless into it's own category.
A run oriented to the max score will generate more lag, more dead time moments and i think is less entertaining; also, it might requiere less route planning than this run, because this run requiere more CPU manipulation, more lag optimization and more route planning, so i think, this run is more impressive technically speaking than a max score run.
It just seems so pointless and sad. I loved the first set where you tried to hit as many targets as you could. I was very impressed by the work. Then I saw the weightlift and the jump and I was like, meh, really?
It's like beating a track and field game with whiffs on each round. I mean, sure, I guess it's faster.. but it's less exciting from a superplay perspective. :(
Asking for additional feedback is also not in any way meant to be an attack on the author. I found it strange that we have an improvement to a Starred TAS and very little feedback aside from "is this faster?" As such I wanted to see how people felt about the movie aside from that. It could be positive. It could be negative. Either way, I felt it was appropriate to gather more input before determining a tier.
Hi Memory!
I wasn't sure what to expect with this movie either. I came on, saw the title, expected more commentary myself. Then I saw that the time was longer, and saw your post and a couple of other posts suggesting that significant time saves were possible.
I wasn't sure if this was just someone uploading a slower movie and not quite understanding the game.
So I decided to watch it. Wow! It was a great movie. So I thought that the overall response was a bit harsh given the quality of the movie and the work that's been put in.
Prior to my post there hadn't been any praise for the author for the work they put in, so I thought I would correct that!
Anyways, I'm glad you've helped him upload. That was my only concern is that the movie would be held up because of the debate over possible improvements. It's a great movie nonetheless.
Thank you for your time!
Authors matter. Some movies get fawned over. Others get attacked if they happen to replace a 'special' movie. Tired of the double standard.
This is a great movie. :) I thank the author by finding a very new and cool route to this.
Keep up the good work!
Yes vote. Memory is starting to really irritate me. Run, thanks to the comparison video is publishable as it beats the current record. Publish first, frame war later.
The single screen constraint is why staggering can be helpful. You take advantage of that by trying to maximize your time on both characters. It's not a straightforward flow chart through a level to the victims. A couple of times I noticed you using this, if one of the characters doesn't need to be moving at full speed, you can hesitate to trigger their shoes, until their movement becomes paramount. Then that character will close it out at the end, as their shoes last longer.
It's not a big savings, but some times it is *just enough* to squeeze out a touch more speedshoe.
Anyways, great run. Huge improvement over the previous publication.
Regarding the "dividing speedshoe timing", I don't think this is doable in practice, since you have to keep the characters in the same screen. So if one character is walking at normal speed, the character with the shoes is stuck at the edge of the screen anyways, and you lose all the benefits. You might save a few frames if you start the shoes only after the character is at the edge of the screen, but you also have to take into account the routing. For instance, one character takes a detour to save a victim, but then the other character needs to do this too so I think it balances out.
I think I've misunderstood how speedshoes work. Doesn't each character need to use a speedshoe?
Level 35: shoes and ghost potions is definitely faster than ghost only. The area at the beginning and the hidden hallway to pickup the tourists is long enough to justify the use of shoes
- Level 36: You mean monster potion for the fight with the boss? Would be slower for sure. The monster doesn't do much damage to the boss and it's harder to move around with it.
Thank you! :)
I hope you don't regard my post as critical! I think you did an amazing job! Thank you so much for running one of my favorite games!
Opening sequence looks to be bazooka (to open the secret) + shoes + skeleton key for the key door, to open up more boxes for more shoes, which you turn on from level 2.
I think there's a couple of boxes in both levels that are available? Is it worth the time to try to get a second shoe in level one to start level 2 with shoes? You're one box/can short of that.
I think 39 minutes is possible, with even more speedshoes! :) Also, dividing up the speedshoe timing would also help. IE, start character A on the shoes, and then have Character B use shoes later in the level, when it matters for them and you need them moving in the right direction. You do this more later on in the run, it would help with the 'slowdowns' at the end when you run out of shoes, and help extend your shoes for just that touch longer that you need.
You do great with the 'moonwalking'. :) Thanks for an amazing run. That's all I could see with this.
It looks to me like you whiff a couple of times on the boxes, and miss a few boxes that could help you later on in the run. This is such a long run that I can see why this is so difficult, figuring out exactly what you need when you need it is probably one of the toughest things!
Non Speedshoed areas:
Level 1
Start of Level 2.
Monster Potion in level 2 that you just pass up.
End of Level 4. "Chainsaw Hedgerow"
Looks like you're saving the shoes, and weren't able to finish the level before the shoes wore off.
Level 5, I see what you mean about the one drop that just didn't drop. You also lost shoes as a result midway through the level, when collecting more shoes.
Monster potion in level 7 behind the key door.
Level 12, you lose speedshoes by the end of Mars Needs Cheerleaders. You have two levels (Baby level), where you pass up on collecting shoes... Would it be possible to pick up more to save time here?
Level 12B, looks like you lose speedshoes before the end of the level.
Level 16, Ants, just before the end.
Level 22, Revenge of Dr. Tongue. Quite a long sequence at the end.
Level 27, Mark of the Vampire. Here you run out of shoes and stop in the middle of the level before you collect your needed shoes.
It looks like you could have been even more aggressive with your shoe pickups earlier in the game. I was wondering if you had 'all the shoes you needed', and it looks like that's not the case.
There's a couple of levels that you pass up on shoes that would cost you time in those levels, but look like it would save you time later on by collecting more shoes.
Level 29, you start the level without shoes.
Slowdown at the end of antfarm, level 32.
Slowdown at the end of level 33.
Level 35 is interesting. what was going on there? Shoes followed by Ghost potions and yet you wade in the level at the start? Is that faster than Ghost at the start?
Level 36. What about monster potions here? Would those be faster? You lose speedshoes here by the end of the monster battle.
Level 37, you lose speedshoes by the end of the level.
Level 41, you lose your speedshoes again by the end but it looks like you're able to extend them by moonwalking to the end.
Level 44, lots of potion usage? Is this the best route? Also you miss a box!
Finally done watching this. What a tour de force.
As for the improvable sequences vs tradeoffs for entertainment (IE, not waiting as long as you could for the ideal drops), how many drops were you actually short?
It looks like you had speedshoes the entire time, and had sufficient keys. Also, would it be possible to post a list of total equipment that you needed in the run and the 'ideal drop sequence?'
Might be worth the time to test the rolls to get an 'ideal sequence', and see what that does for overall time.