Ergo, this should be published. If Memory et al believe that they can improve this movie, I encourage them to actually put in the work and roll up their sleeves and do just that.
Since of course, anyone can improve a WIP.
We encourage people to put that work into their TASes.
Quite a bit of work has obviously been put into this submission. But what do I know? It's not like I've ever played this game before.
This is just going to keep coming up and eventually the bad rules going to be scrapped. It has a good intent, but there is a difference between having a good intention and having a good outcome. Scrapping submissions that beat out current publications is a BAD outcome of this rule.
Don't you see that?
There's a very VERY easy solution to this, and that is to beat that specific portion. you are acting as if improvements can only be done by the ones who upload WIPs, which makes absolutely zero sense
Nonsense. Why haven't existing WIPs been completed to supplant this submission? They've had sufficient time to do it. Like I said, it's easy to do a level or two and then quit.
Why should we hold completed submissions back just because a level or two has been completed in a WIP that may or may not ever finish? It beats out the current publication and so it should be published. Then, if the WIP ever finishes, then that one can replace this publication.
The fact that more than one person can improve WIPs just makes my case stronger. Why hasn't the WIP been completed yet if everyone can work on the WIP? Answer, because that takes work and people have other priorities. We've had frame wars before.
with the same argument that has been shut down.
The problem is that the rule isn't working and good submissions are being rejected. Once is a coincidence. Twice is happenstance. Three times means that there's a problem with the rule and burying your head in the sand and saying that there's no problem won't suffice.
I get that you want quality, so do I. That's not the issue here. This submission is better than the current publication and improves the roster here at TAS videos. Could it be further improved? Sure. Is it known how it could be improved. Perhaps, but I'd love to see all the people rejecting these submissions finishing up the WIPs in question so that we can see these improvments.
But that's not what is happening. WIPs get submitted, and abandoned and good submissions get shut down. That's a problem with the rule, and why the rule should be scrapped altogether.
My question for you, is how is this rule improving submissions?
If that were so, why haven't the WIPs (which were started before this one was) been quickly completed to supplant this one? Feos gives some actual insight as to why.
This game is insanely tedious to TAS optimally, because you have to do infinite amounts of planning and RNG manipulation: get a turtle, manipulate enemies to spawn optimally, kill the turtle when enemy spawns will be reduced by having just 1 player, start over and test another turtle the same way.
As it is this submission beats the current existing publication. Ergo, it ought to be published. It's easy to do a level and then quit. Why should good submissions be held back by incomplete WIPs? It's way harder to do the entire game not just a level or two.
That's two movies now that have been rejected. Obviously the problem is the rule, not the submissions. But I guess we'll have spikestuff saying that this movie was 'rushed'.
Once again we have the same bullshit rule come up in another submission. The problem is the rule, not the submissions.
The rule that if an existing submission is slower than a portion of an unfinished WIP needs to be scrapped. As it is, good submissions that are improvements on existing publications should be published and let the WIPs replace them if they are ever finished.
Yes vote from me. Should be published alongside the Earthbound TAS similarly rejected. Scrap the rule and move on.
I'm allowed to criticize this TAS for being rushed when A, there's evidence that suggests that is and B
And what evidence is that? It's currently better than the existing publication.
It must be nice to be a big name, because then you can shut down publications you don't like. Yawn. Happens all the time in academia, as I said and is 100 percent political.
I hope that whenever was0x or piro ever get around to doing their submission that this submission is credited too.
yes, it looks like he's just randomly kicking blocks every which way but they just happen to land precisely when they need to. :)
Yes vote from me. This is very well done, but I hope that it is appreciated as much of the 'action' necessarily happens off screen so as to time the exit to match the clear screen. And, because you have to set up everything so you're not going to stick around to see the results.
Vice versa. I don't see why we should have a TAS that was rushed
Who says it was rushed? That is wholly *your* opinion.
which is evident by a WIP that was made which can show the case of "it's already obsolete before it was even submitted".
Currently this is the best completed run of the game. Ergo, it ought to be published.
That WIP that was0x and pirohiko has created applies to this for performing better compared to this TAS.
Interesting timeline. I'd agree if was0x and pirohiko had done their WIP in response to this one. Which is obviously not the case given the anger at your response that they were beaten for priority here.
What you're doing is actually very common in academia and elsewhere. You have the 'big names' working on something and they get pipped. You're attempting to delay publication so that the 'big names' can come in later and get full credit. Poor showing I must say.
Sorry. They've had time to do their WIP, but they have other priorities. That's why they got beat out by this 'lazy' (in your eyes) run which completes the game.
We've had plenty of frame wars before. Labelling a finished run as 'lazy' because it doesn't incorporate all the skips of a yet unfinished WIP, well, I can't say.
You say you can beat this run. Fair enough. Let's see your finished version of this run which is faster and then settle this debate. Otherwise we should publish this. There was obviously a lot of work put into this publication and labelling it as *rushed* and *lazy* is quite unfair.
I for one am quite happy that this run was submitted. It's well done. Piro and was0x can of course finish their superior run when they are finished. Until then this should stand.
It doesn't settle anything when a movie exists that obsoletes this one at an opening segment before it was even submitted.
Once the WIP is completed then they can obsolete this publication. Or someone else can come along and incorporate both together.
I don't see why we should wait until the WIP is finished when they've had plenty of time to work on their movie and have obviously had other priorities. .
Evidence that this is sloppy.
Currently this is the best run available.
This movie was rushed and we shouldn't be giving a hand to attempt to save it due to this.
What is there to save? This movie beats out the current run. It should be published and then the folks working on the current WIP can then obsolete it.
Someone obviously has his panties in a bunch because they got beat out by someone working harder. Tough deal, but that happens. They've had plenty of time to finish the WIP.
Wow. Amazing job. Highlights of the run for me were the new Dark Castle route and maintaining P-Speed throughout the airships.
Only level that the 2010 run did better was the second autoscroller tanks. Score for the new version was ahead of the old version until then, and I think the 2010 did a more entertaining job of that level.
I wouldn't worry about the 1 frame speed/entertainment tradeoff. This is a big net improvement!
Great run. Best room, the Gondola. Worst run, the trains. This game is surprisingly well done. Quite enjoyed it, and looking forward to the improvements!
Yeah, I expected this kind of feedback for this game. Really hard to find an A2600 game that can fit the moons requirements.
Nothing wrong with your submission. But Solaris on the Atari is an example of a game that would merit moons. ;)
Anyways, thanks for the effort. I hope this gets approved so that nobody else has to do this game again!
HappyLee, why didn't you bother actually bringing up that the file axe grab was a frame off? If we knew about this we could've fixed it to the "prefered" ending frame of Super Mario Bros. but no, you hammed it in through majority of the "discussion" on that submission and never brought it up only until your own submission.
Because he was in a frame war at that point and was worried that it would pre-empt the work that he had already done.
That being said, this is a great movie. I would like to see it submitted with Mr. Wint as a contributor as I think that is fairest to both TASers.
Ais, your point about 'adjusting the time' to match what the net expected number of resets requires makes no sense to me from a TAS context. Luck manipulation is a big part, making unlikely things happen on command is huge.
Personally, I think it would be simplest to require set parameters for a 'clean save', ie, specific RAM values. That way everyone knows what to expect and everyone has to play by the same rules.