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I see a couple problems with your competition. 1) You should choose a game that hasn't had a TAS already published, or at least one that isn't as frame-whored as Mario 64, to avoid giving a subset of members an unfair advantage. 2) You should probably choose a run that is possible to complete in less time (20-25 minutes would probably be a good start). The way you have things described right now, I can see someone just playing through SM64 and loading a save-state now and then to redo major fuckups. That's not exactly showing super-human abilities, it's just making a bad TAS (or a "unacceptable" speedrun). It's a good idea, don't get me wrong, but with the way you have it set up right now you probably won't have anyone actually participate.
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My sister once threw up after eating a whole bunch of spaghetti... this game kinda reminds me of that.
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Yeah, I wasn't suggesting you post there, since this (I guess) is technically a different hack. It does happen to be fun (and relevant!) reading :)
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Epic thread revival! http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4920&highlight= Somewhere out there, funguy10 is getting all warm and fuzzy.
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Can I buy some pot from you?
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Considering that this submission is only 45 seconds longer than the currently published movie, what would people think about having this movie obsolete the current publication? Without having watched the two movies side by side yet, I'll say that I would be very surprised if they offered very different viewing experiences. Thoughts on the idea?
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The concept/demo category still exists (to the chagrin of many, I'm sure), but this movie is still listed there, as it has been for as long as I can remember. http://tasvideos.org/Movies-Hacks.html
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Hypothetical question time: Say that I have been involved in a very passionate speed running community for Spider-man 3 for several years. It's a game that features fast paced action, with a variety of fighting moves and many different ways to travel through the short levels. In this speedrunning community, goals such as aiming for fastest time to complete the game, and fastest time to collect all the web and power tokens, are commonplace. Because the community has been around for so long, many members have begun to get creative with their goals. One such goal that has popped up is beating the game without web-zipping (max speed 1800), and using only web-swinging (max speed 1280), as this makes it easier for the enemies to try to attack you. This goal is often combined with the goal of only using punches to kill enemies (since they deal about 3/4 of the damage as kicks), as this makes the game harder to complete for speedrunners. For argument's sake, let's say that when you do complete the game using only punches, you get a nice "Thumbs Up" graphic at the end of the game to validate your accomplishment. Members have a great time competing to find new and inventive ways of getting through each level with these restrictions, and new techniques are found every 3-4 months (some of which are only reproducible with frame precision). Now, bring this hypothetical situation into reality. SM (Super Metroid, not Spider-man) has a long-standing speedrunning community, with many competitive members. Since typical goals have long been thoroughly mastered, some more inventive goals have popped up to increase the difficulty for speedrunners. Trying to complete the game with as few items as possible would certainly challenge a speedrunner in real life. However, it is essentially an artificial challenge, much as the example I outlined above is. Both artificial challenges cause some non-negligible total movie time increase, due to decreased speed of movement, and longer boss fights, which isn't a big deal for speed-runners, as the trade-off in the form of increased difficulty, to further prove their mastery of the game. For a TAS however, the artificial challenge provides very little extra challenge, due to perfect reflexes and boss HP watching. Sure, there's some differences in route planning, due to some TAS-only tricks that aren't available to regular speedrunners. But once the planning is done, the rest of the movie is roughly as hard to make as a regular any% run. If I were to submit a Spider-man 3 movie to TASvideos.org with the above restrictions, just because it's a valid category for another community, I would likely get laughed at. The TAS would be slower than other published runs due to less than optimal movement speed (no speedbooster), and less than optimal boss fights (very little ammo). Both restrictions make the run slower to watch, slower to complete, and all for the sake of a graphical reward (whether it be a "thumbs up", or an "items collected 14%"). True, some of the techniques used may be only available to a TAS, but due to the depth of research into the game, many of the new tricks will be lost on the general audience. Arguing that this movie should be accepted because the goal is thought of as valid in another community is argumentation without proper logic. This site is its own community with its own set of rules, rules which shouldn't be influenced by another community's prior history. If this run showed something new and different to the general public that the previous 4 runs did, it would likely be given much more thought. However, the artificial restrictions in this run make both the general rate of movement slower than the other runs, but also lengthen the boss fights considerably, all in an effort to see the number "14" at the end of the game, and to demonstrate some new techniques that likely will only be noticed by people who intimately know the game. This is not a bad movie, nor is it lacking in entertainment. But it does not conform to the rules of the site as they are written right now. If you'd like to go about trying to change the rules of this site, feel free to do so. But criticizing those who enforce the rules simply because you wish this site was more like a SM speed-running community is both childish and counter-productive. As has been said before, the core audience of this movie is likely to be those involved with SM speedrunning, in which case, I would suggest you proudly post it in a thread on a site such as mk2k. In any case, I'm done weighing in on this topic, unless it's via PM for clarification of something already said.
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Just a bump to try to rustle up some interest... only 3 votes in over a month (which is sadly pretty typical for GB games).
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PreddY wrote:
good job rejecting... now this thread dies again like 1 1/2 years ago, and it would still be dead if I wouldnt't have revived it. so this great game will never get a run on TAS.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
On the other hand, I didn't want to submit this movie. I was only hoping that Preddy finishing a test run would let us find improvements more easily. It's too sloppy the way it is now.
When the coauthor of the movie admits that it shouldn't have been submitted, you should probably listen, and redo it.
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Larkin wrote:
Playing "Legally" through the game, i.e taking out the intended bosses and mini bosses
Not to belabor the point, but many of the mini-bosses have been absent from this, and most other SM runs (Chozo Statue, Spore Spawn, etc.) I understand the concept of having to beat the 4 main bosses to access Mother Brain, but skipping all the mini-bosses doesn't seem very legal to me. Both the out of bounds glitch and skipping the chozo statue abuse oversights by the programmers, and are used to skip portions of the game. Calling one set of circumstances legal and one set not is very arbitrary to me. To Fabian, evilchen, etc: I based my decision by adhering to the guidelines I was given when I became a judge. I have no problem with someone starting a different site dedicated to SM TASes. But I did not feel that this TAS was appropriate to severely bend the guideline I quoted, and add a 5th (!) category to the Super Metroid family.
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SMB3 Both the any% and no warps run are entertaining, so one or the other should keep a star, I don't have a preference for which. The three sonic stars S3&K is built to have a star, as is Sonic Advance 2. If one should be cut, it's Sonic 2. The three NES megaman stars One should probably go, but I don't know enough about them to make a really informed decision. Super Mario 64 The 0 star run should definitely stay, as it is one of the best examples of the power that TASing produces. I think the 120 star run should probably be cut, but would likely be up for reinstatement once m_r_z finishes his run. SMW I'd propose a compromise: have one SMW run, and one SDW run. All of them are entertaining, so I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. The two Zelda stars OoT!!! [/sarcasm] I think ALttP is an appropriate choice, and have no opinion on the NES version. Excitebike Keep it. It's fun, fast, and short, with very noticeable game-breaking glitches. SMW2 No opinion, as I haven't watched it or played the game at all. SMB1 This is the game I feel that should lose it's star the most. It is very close to the unassisted time, and is not very impressive unless you understand the underlying mechanics of the game engine. SMB2(U) I never liked this game, so any recommendation would be biased. Castlevania I agree, at least one of the GBA Castlevania runs should be starred, since there's a plethora of them to choose from. Probably at the expense of the NES one. Umihara Kawase Spiderman 3? :D "any%" Metroid There aren't any other Metroid runs that are more well suited for a star, but I'd argue for either the in-game timer or real-time Super Metroid run should get a star. However, I don't think the NES metroid should lose it's star, it has some of the more entertaining glitches I've seen in an NES game, and its length is perfect. Gradius Keep it, it's good. Mega Man X & X2 I think the fact that it does show off an interesting concept, while still being entertaining, is one of the reasons that this one should keep its star, although I know a lot of people will disagree with me. Overall, the only runs that I don't think deserve stars are Umihara Kawase and SMB1. All the others are of good quality and entertainment, but I would like to see a few new movies on the list to broaden the scope of the stars some.
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Heh, very cool movie Aqfaq! I personally like the extended input ending, since it gives the feeling of "Aw shit, my blob is getting lucky, and I'm not getting any... where's the nearest cliff?" Anyway, excellent job.
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Interesting movie, although the gameplay entertainment dropped off after about 25k frames since it was pretty repetitious. However, it's relatively short, and kept my most of my attention throughout the run. Rated 4.9/6.2
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Sorry for the double post, but I've had a chance to watch this all the way through, and I'm very torn on what decision to make. On the positive side, the action elements were very well done. The research into the game engine is impressive, and the pinball movement and management is very good. The racing mini-games get somewhat stale, but they are handled well and the pachinko section was pretty sweet. On the negative side: the cutscenes. They really break up the flow of the run, and create some very boring waiting periods which destroyed the entertainment factor for me. A TAS can't be judged selectively on the parts that are enjoyable, without taking into account the disappointing parts as well. As this run has received some positive feedback from a scant few people, I'm going to leave it open for another week to see if anyone else shows interest. Regardless of the decision made, I commend dwangoac on the very complete job done with this TAS, and look forward to more work from him in the future.
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Saturn wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
The whole of my reasons are highlighted in red above, if you would like to provide arguments against them (as a whole), you are welcome.
Ok here you go:
1) Poor and semi-arbitrary goal choice
As solid goal choice as it can be. Beating the game with lowest amount of items in legal conditions (without OOR glitching to skip bosses and most of the game). You are probably one of the ~5% of people here who can't recognize this as a solid goal. The majority sure does and stated it in this thread several times.
2) inability to reach those goals (due to the aforementioned entertainment/speed tradeoffs)
As stated before, fully reached both goals I had: "To get the lowest possible completion time on the game clock, while still beating it without ever entering the pause screen except when unavoidable to increase entertainment and shorten the realtime count".
You seem to have a difficult time counting: Goal 1): Low % Goal 2): No out of bounds glitch Goal 3): Lowest game clock Goal 4): No entering the pause screen except when unavoidable (whatever that means) Goal 5): Lowest real time count Wow, even I had problems counting earlier. I thought you only had 4 primary goals, when you clearly have 5.
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Saturn wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
The fact that you later decide to call this omissions "entertainment/speed tradeoffs" shows me that you could not make up your mind as to which goals you really wanted to follow, so you figured that a combination of both would suffice.
My 2 main goals were to get the lowest possible completion time on the game clock, while still beating the game without ever entering the pause screen except when unavoidable to increase entertainment and shorten the realtime count. Both of which I have succeeded.
If these were indeed your 2 primary goals then my "nebulous" labeling was an understatement, at best. I also noticed that nowhere in that description does it mention "low %", or "no OOB glitch". In which case I count 4 primary goals.
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Saturn wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
When coupled with the same amount running from room to room, plus more door transitions, I think that the 6% is more entertaining overall.
With what you are clearly in the minority as seen in the thread. Does it provide you the right to ignore the majority of the audience and just go by your personal tastes? I don't think this happened before here.
I did not reject it because I may have found it less entertaining than the 6% run; I was providing that as a counter example directed at a critique of one of my (many) reasons for rejection. The whole of my reasons are highlighted in red above, if you would like to provide arguments against them (as a whole), you are welcome.
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Wall of text ahead, beware.
Sir VG wrote:
I have to seriously disagree with the rejecting of this run.
Considering that the previous 14% run was left unimproved for 4 years
Stupid reasoning. Zelda 1 2nd quest didn't get a new run for almost 4.5 years (#8, the last published run, was posted 2004-05-13 while it's successor was posted 2008-10-16)
Zelda 1 also does not have the intense competition between a small group of people that Super Metroid exhibits. LoZ currently has two categories, and the first quest run was updated a total of twice in the same timespan. Compare that to SM, which has had two new categories added, and a total of 7-9 improvements (depending on how you count) published over the same 4 year span, not including the "any%, glitched" category. In a subset of this community as outspoken and visible as the Super Metroid TASers, clearly the 14% run was the least favored.
When compared to the three currently published "non-glitched" runs, this movie provides very little additional entertainment value for viewers who do not closely follow Super Metroid techniques and tricks.
While there is an interesting trick done in the 6% run, it's EXTREMELY BORING TO WATCH. Honestly, who wants to spend 10 minutes watching Samus turn left turn right, and slowly creep up while doing the X-Ray beam? Honestly, as a Super Metroid fan, I was disgusted with that. It was boring. 14% is better because it pushes a runner to the limits while still being entertaining to watch. It gives a real sense of completeness that the 6% fails to do. It's ENTERTAINING. Isn't that the purpose of this site?
I intentionally compared this run to the other three "non-glitched" publications. As I stated in my rejection text, this movie does not offer a significantly greater amount of variation from the aforementioned runs, or at least not enough, in my opinion, to resurrect a dead branch of the run.
Xkeeper wrote:
I would be genuinely surprised if more than 3 people watched that segment without holding down the fastforward button. It's basically the SM64 problem all over again; a run that shows nothing removes all of the gameplay except a few small bits, leaving a run that actually shows part of the game to be forgotten and rejected if anybody actually tries to improve it.
There is one major difference between this game and Super Mario 64: Super Metroid already has 3 other runs published in addition to the glitched run. There is clearly no dearth of Super Metroid material already on the site.
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm sorry, but I have to say this because while I may not agree with some things, the rejection reasoning is something I REALLY can't stand and feel I have to say something. All I can do is hope that this doesn't fall on deaf ears.
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
While I doubt that there is any way that I will convince you that I judged this objectively, I tried to provide rationale for my reasoning. My dislike of Saturn is obvious, but I assure you that I did not base my decision on who he is, or how he has carried himself in the past. Everyone deserves a fair chance to have their submissions impartially judged, and I provided very clear reasons for why I thought this movie should be rejected. My dislike of the author did not factor into my decision.
Saturn wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
It's too obvious, yes. I actually thought that at least the judges on this site are already out of the age of not being able to judge something objectively, regardless of the author (as stated in the judge guidelines), but it seems I was wrong. New times, new rules, I guess.
See above^. The responsibility was yours to provide a convincing argument as to why this category should be resurrected, and you failed to do so. This is not a site that caters only to Super Metroid, and the fact that a lot of people like the game does not mean that every category is an appropriate one. Despite your claims that there are enormous amounts of new tricks, I (as a casual SM watcher/player) was only able to spot one or two. The rest of the movie felt very comparable to the two "any%" runs that we already have published.
Bablo wrote:
In my opinion it was objectively judged. For me, a regular player who doesn't have in-depth knowledge of Super Metroid, the goals seem kind of confusing for following reasons: 1) There is already a low% TAS published. 2) Doesn't use glitches, except it does? 3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes. I haven't watched the TAS yet, but I certainly will. I'm sure it' a good run, but I don't expect to see anything groundbreaking that would make this new category valid for publishing.
Thank you for your input as another casual SM player.
Sir VG wrote:
3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes.
You're right. We don't. Therefore this should have kicked out the 6% run with the tag "trades time for entertainment value". Problem solved. I know a lot of people won't agree with that. 6% is the real low%! Yeah, but honestly, why are you willing to watch a boring run? I honestly think that the 14% run is entertaining because of what Saturn has done despite the limitations. Outside of a little bit of the MB fight, the boss fights were not boring. Whereas the 6% run, I was constantly bored. I suppose others could use the theory against me with other games, like Zelda 2, Zelda LA, SM64, and others. But all I can say to that is you have to take things on a case-by-case basis. And in the case of SM low%, I give it to 14% over 6%.
I can use the counter-argument that the 14% run has very slow boss fights, which make it much more boring to watch. When coupled with the same amount running from room to room, plus more door transitions, I think that the 6% is more entertaining overall. Clearly we have different opinions, and you are free to express yours. I stand by my decision, however.
Saturn wrote:
1. The 6% is a NBMB (no-boss-mini-boss) run that skips a major part of the game using gamebreaking glitches. It's not a true low% category as we know it from many other games because of that, while the 14% has a long history in the SM speedrun community, and is accepted as the official low% there.
As I have said before, this is not a site dedicated to Super Metroid Speedrunning. Although you claim that the 6% run is "not a true low%", I fully disagree, and at least I can provide rationale for my view (6 is lower than 14, afterall). Your justification for the 14% run seems to be that it's legit simply because it can be done without the use of tools, and I don't believe that makes an interesting category for a TAS.
Saturn wrote:
3. The 14% category was a solid one that existed before the 6% TAS came out. It got obsoleted for no good reason by a run that aims for "completely" different goals, as stated in the first 2 points. Besides, the amount of categories doesn't matter as long as they present solid, unique goals, which the 14% one certainly does. It's in fact perfectly suited for TASes due to it's difficulty and therefore the many advanced techs it shows that you won't ever see in a unassisted run. The 6% category is of course unique in itself as well, so it also deserves it's place here. In the end it would only be better for this site the more unique runs with solid goals it can present, as it would get more audience because of that.
It doesn't aim for "completely different goals", it aims for fastest time, period. As a byproduct, it also produces a true low % run. Your goals of "fastest time, except without using OOB glitches, and with picking up as few items as possible" is on the border between excessive and ridiculous. Factor in the fact that you don't actually complete this run in the fastest time possible, due to intentionally wasting time in the first half of the run, means that you weren't even able to satisfy your own goals. The fact that you later decide to call this omissions "entertainment/speed tradeoffs" shows me that you could not make up your mind as to which goals you really wanted to follow, so you figured that a combination of both would suffice. In the end, my judgment did not come from any one factor (i.e. unoptimized play, poor game choice, etc). It came from a summation of all the factors which I laid out in the judgment, and have elaborated upon here: 1) Poor and semi-arbitrary goal choice, 2) inability to reach those goals (due to the aforementioned entertainment/speed tradeoffs), 3) an abundance of Super Metroid material already published, and 4) an inability for this run to provide reasonably different material from those movie already published. All these factors contributed to my judgment, and lest I be accused of not addressing this, my personal feelings towards Saturn did NOT play a part in my decision. Any more comments or criticisms will be answered as they arrive.
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RT-55J wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
Many species of animals have been shown to be able to learn and utilize tools, so intellect is definitely not what sets us apart.
Can other species even learn linear algebra?
No, can humans learn how to regrow limbs like many amphibians can? There are obviously many things that humans can do that animals can't, but the converse is also true. My point was that many animals are much smarter than what science used to think, not that they can do everything we can do, just as we can't do everything animals can do. (I would also mention that not all humans can do algebra, even after being taught it).
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Post subject: Re: Nintendo DS mod/hack options - Opinions wanted!
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RT-55J wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
2) I want to be able to play NDS ROMs (duh)
>:(
I'm also confused... either you think piracy is morally wrong, or you don't like the fact that I pointed out something that would seem to be very redundant. If it's the second case, you have a point; if it's the first case, you're probably visiting the wrong site. To everyone else: Thanks for your opinions, and keep 'em coming!
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I agree with adelikat about everything he wrote, and also vote for Baxter to be in charge of distributing stars.
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Post subject: Nintendo DS mod/hack options - Opinions wanted!
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I'm currently in the market for a DS Lite, and I'd like to know some opinions about options for flash cards to use. Here's what I've been looking at: M3 DS Real - Rumble & GBA Expansion Pak CycloDS Supercard DS I only have a few priorities at this time: 1) It has to be reliable, so that I don't have to buy more than one. 2) I want to be able to play NDS ROMs (duh) 3) I would like to be able to play GBA ROMs 4) I would like to be able to play other ROMs via emulator (SNES, NES, etc) 5) Cool features, such as save states and slowdown would be a definite plus 6) The ability to play movies, view pictures, and listen to music would only be a bonus, I don't plan to use it for much more than video games. I realize that a lot of this information is around the web, including the sites I listed, but I'm curious to get some opinions from people here before I commit the money. If you have any advice in the form of glowing recommendations, scathing critiques, or even just general usability, I'd appreciate it.
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RT-55J wrote:
Rridgway wrote:
What defining traits set us apart from animals?
Intellect.
Many species of animals have been shown to be able to learn and utilize tools, so intellect is definitely not what sets us apart. A lot of people would probably say that humans having a soul or spirit sets us apart from animals, but without some way to measure a soul, it's impossible to quantify.
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I've sat down twice to watch this now, but have gotten distracted each time with other things. So, in an attempt to stir up more viewers, I'll give my initial impression: The pinball action is great, but there's not enough of it. The large amount of cutscenes dilute down the action, although they're not overly annoying. Anyway, I'll get around to doing some judging on Thursday and Friday, but in the mean time, it would be nice to have a few more opinions to base my decision on. And, just a reminder, publishing a movie with the cutscenes edited out is not an option.
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