Jumpman is out to save Pauline from younger Cranky Kong, who is still whisking off maidens and throwing barrels around the place seven days a week, again.
This homebrew remake of the first Mario game has Factory as the second level(50m), which is removed from NES Donkey Kong.
feos: There is a movie rule about hacks/homebrews. It says: "We don't allow hacks that only serve to change the looks of the original game. Hacks must provide unique gameplay." This homebrew is a good one, it adds a nice SNES touch to the old classics, but it's the only thing it does. Had it been an official port, we'd likely accept it. But this one I have to reject.
If you're looking for a DK version to TAS, the NES one already having a run, you might try out how MAME-rr works, it must be possible to make such a run on it.
feos: Unrejecting, in order to apply the specific Vault rule.
feos: This is a Vault game, so it needs to be a quality homebrew with reasonable notability. While notability is not easy to define, and this game has some level of it, the most important thing is the spirit of the law: we have the rule so that bad or meaningless homebrew games aren't accepted. This one is neither bad, nor meaningless, it's a nice port imitating the SNES style. It also is technically optimized. Accepting to Vault.
Spikestuff: HA~! I knew this was an acceptable game. Publishing.
Hacked and homebrew games
Hacked games are allowed for submission. However, they go through more scrutiny than other games. This is because the hack itself also becomes a subject to judgment, so it must be a high quality hack with a strong following. The TAS should be high quality on its own merit, and must also show something interesting compared to other game(s) made on the same game engine.
Do not use fan translations for your movies — see above for more on this. This rule is strict.
No cosmetic hacks
We don't allow hacks that only serve to change the looks of the original game. Hacks must provide unique gameplay.
No tampering with the files the game is composed of
Some systems, such as DOS, exposes the separate parts of the game to the user. You are not allowed to manipulate game files except as normally done during install, if the game needs to be installed.
That means no renaming/copying/deleting/replacing/editing files.
The common header is about hacks and homebrews. In the text (and in the whole page) only hacks are mentioned explicitly. If you want me to assume that the rules for homebrews are somehow different from the rules for hacks (while they are still in one section), mention it explicitly.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
The common header is about hacks and homebrews.
Indeed, the section discusses both. Yet certain paragraphs also makes specific reference to hacks in ways which can only apply to hacks.
feos wrote:
In the text (and in the whole page) only hacks are mentioned explicitly.
And some sections make no reference, equally applying to everything under discussion.
feos wrote:
If you want me to assume that the rules for homebrews are somehow different from the rules for hacks (while they are still in one section), mention it explicitly.
We'd expect a certain level of reading comprehension and applied thought.
The rule you're quoting explicitly mentions hacks, and explicitly talks about " that only serve to change the looks of the original game". Even if you had some ground to stand on regarding the hack vs. homebrew differentiation, an entire rewrite of the game on a different platform, with a new engine which works differently is more than solely changing the looks of the original game.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Then add a guideline that would resolve all the issues about homebrews that are simply graphical remakes.
Also, the lack of a rule resulted in my case (after applying reading comprehension and thought) in how I interpreted it. Are you saying that it was obviously intended to be understood otherwise?
Also2, wasn't the goal of developers making an exact copy of the original engine, with changing only how it sounds and looks?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
Then add a guideline that would resolve all the issues about homebrews that are simply graphical remakes.
I don't see why a guideline is needed to permit something.
feos wrote:
Also, the lack of a rule resulted in my case (after applying reading comprehension and thought) in how I interpreted it. Are you saying that it was obviously intended to be understood otherwise?
I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that you did. Every single person who read the paragraphs in question agreed to the understanding that Mothrayas and myself have of them, and find our interpretation the obvious one.
feos wrote:
Also, wasn't the goal of developers making an exact copy of the original engine, with changing only how it sounds and looks?
It clearly isn't. The mechanics of gameplay are a bit are different, I highly doubt the bugs in the NES one exist here, and there's way less enemies afoot, at least on the mode played in the TAS.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Every single person who read the paragraphs in question agreed to the understanding that Mothrayas and myself have of them, and find our interpretation the obvious one.
Then there're only 2 options:
1. I manipulated the movie rules (the nonexistent ones) to force my decision.
2. All those people may be wrong about how "perfectly" the lack of rule tells you something.
Nach wrote:
I don't see why a guideline is needed to permit something.
Oh wow. The paragraph does say
Hacked games are allowed for submission
Can I remove it please?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Judging by how much (bad) feedback it got, it was notable by how bad/unserious of a game it was.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
Every single person who read the paragraphs in question agreed to the understanding that Mothrayas and myself have of them, and find our interpretation the obvious one.
Then there're only 2 options:
1. I manipulated the movie rules (the nonexistent ones) to force my decision.
2. All those people may be wrong about how "perfectly" the lack of rule tells you something.
3. Your native language isn't English, and on occasion, you miss some fine details.
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
I don't see why a guideline is needed to permit something.
Oh wow. The paragraph does say
Hacked games are allowed for submission
Can I remove it please?
Considering those words are part of a larger context, which serve to limit a prohibition, no.
And on the flip-side, I challenge you to find a single line in the site rules that says official games are permitted.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Every single person who read the paragraphs in question agreed to the understanding that Mothrayas and myself have of them, and find our interpretation the obvious one.
Then there're only 2 options:
1. I manipulated the movie rules (the nonexistent ones) to force my decision.
2. All those people may be wrong about how "perfectly" the lack of rule tells you something.
3. Your native language isn't English, and on occasion, you miss some fine details.
4. Whenever Nach is out of arguments and is proven to be "not so right", he runs for the "language barrier" salvation. Is it not obvious how weak it is, when the site is meant to have clear documentation for all the non-English contributers it has?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
Every single person who read the paragraphs in question agreed to the understanding that Mothrayas and myself have of them, and find our interpretation the obvious one.
Then there're only 2 options:
1. I manipulated the movie rules (the nonexistent ones) to force my decision.
2. All those people may be wrong about how "perfectly" the lack of rule tells you something.
3. Your native language isn't English, and on occasion, you miss some fine details.
4. Whenever Nach is out of arguments and is proven to be "not so right", he runs for the "language barrier" salvation. Is it not obvious how weak it is, when the site is meant to have clear documentation for all the non-English contributers it has?
Why is it every time that I tell you that your language skills in English weren't close enough to native to catch some fine details, you see it as an attack? You're not a native English speaker, do you think this is something to be ashamed of?
Would you rather I say you must have a low IQ, and that's why you didn't understand what native English speakers do?
This is not an argument, this is fact, you miss slang and details native English speakers don't. I'm not trying to insult you, or to prove some point. You can either accept it, and accept that when someone explains to that you misunderstood something, you really misunderstood it, or you can somehow see this as a personal attack, not learn from it, and go forth and try to annoy others.
I went ahead about half an hour ago to try to make that section a bit clearer. But as clear as we try to make the documentation, there is no substitute for a certain level of English comprehension. There's only so much one can do to simplify before brevity and preciseness begin to unforgivably suffer, and there will always be someone who has not yet reached that level of speaking English.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
If the page is not regulating homebrews (blindly allowing whatever isn't forbidden), why the heck is that word in the paragraph header? Now quote the exact sentences from the page that regulate homebrews (in a visible or invisible way) and tell me which fine details I missed, and how they are still there.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I'd like to interject that the rules on that page aren't the only ones that apply to this submission - after watching the run, this looks like a Vault run in the entertainment department, so the game choice rules for the Vault would also apply. Specifically, the following:
Hacks (defined as being modifications of an existing eligible game) are not eligible for this category. We demand hacks with entertainment value, therefore they are judged by the Moon tier requirements.
Unlicensed and homebrew games are eligible but may be judged on a game-by-game basis based on their notability.
Since this game is not a hack, the first rule is not applicable. Instead, what determines this game's eligibility for Vault as a homebrew game is its notability; googling the game produces some results, including around 30000 download hits for v2.0 on its googlecode page. Going by that, it seems notable enough to qualify for the Vault in my opinion.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
If the page is not regulating homebrews (blindly allowing whatever isn't forbidden), why the heck is that word in the paragraph header? Now quote the exact sentences from the page that regulate homebrews (in a visible or invisible way) and tell me which details I missed, and how they are still there.
The opposite.
The generic statements in the section apply to hacks and homebrews, while those paragraphs mentioning hacks apply specifically to hacks.
Homebrews don't have any additional restrictions singled out over hacks, as homebrews being completely new games in and of themselves are a step above hacks in terms of their validity in uniqueness and importance.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Since this game is not a hack, the first rule is not applicable. Instead, what determines this game's eligibility for Vault as a homebrew game is its notability; googling the game produces some results, including around 30000 download hits for v2.0 on its googlecode page. Going by that, it seems notable enough to qualify for the Vault in my opinion.
Right, I didn't address being notable enough, as I hoped movie rules don't contradict Vault rules. Thanks for research. I can admit I haven't done it this way. But where have you guys been before it was rejected?
Nach wrote:
The generic statements in the section apply to hacks and homebrews, while those paragraphs mentioning hacks apply specifically to hacks.
Homebrews don't have any additional restrictions singled out over hacks, as homebrews being completely new games in and of themselves are a step above hacks in terms of their validity in uniqueness and importance.
Okay. Might still need at least some note, while we're at it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Guga wrote:
As Judge, you should have done the research too, right?
Or if unsure, busy, whatever, asked in the thread or on IRC for help.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
As Judge, you should have done the research too, right?
I can't have all the world's experience from the start. Never having dealt with "homebrew graphical remakes", this is how my first try looks like. I can unreject it back if anyone wants.
Judging by notability alone, I can say that the game is actually the one people are enjoying, and would love to see TASed (from what I've read before rejecting it). I was thinking this way, when I got to the movie rules page. The rest of the story you know.
Nach wrote:
Or if unsure, busy, whatever, asked in the thread or on IRC for help.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If you were intending that as a request for help, to me that looked more like a statement of rules.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
If you were intending that as a request for help, to me that looked more like a statement of rules.
Which wasn't a correct statement as it appears by now, but still wasn't noticed. I'll consider "more IRC" for future. So shall I unreject it?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
If you were intending that as a request for help, to me that looked more like a statement of rules.
Which wasn't a correct statement as it appears by now, but still wasn't noticed. I'll consider "more IRC" for future. So shall I unreject it?
Well, just judge it as you would now that you know this isn't a reason for rejection.
Perhaps the TAS is sloppy? Perhaps it's not good enough for vault. Or maybe it's a moon? Up to you.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Given that it's a homebrew game, whats the rule for it? Can any port of some existing game be accepted here? If someone made a unofficial port of Super Mario Bros on the Snes as well, can I go TAS it, get it published, and say "I hold the record for fastest SMB TAS"?
If we're going to accept any homebrew now, what's the verdict for this? Infact, can I just make my own game and TAS it?
Edit: http://tasvideos.org/4292S.html
Like this I meant.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
jlun2 wrote:
jlun2 wrote:
Given that it's a homebrew game, whats the rule for it? Can any port of some existing game be accepted here? If someone made a unofficial port of Super Mario Bros on the Snes as well, can I go TAS it, get it published, and say "I hold the record for fastest SMB TAS"?
If we're going to accept any homebrew now, what's the verdict for this? Infact, can I just make my own game and TAS it?
Homebrews are accepted (to Vault, anyway) based on notability, as has been the case for a while now. See also turska's post on this one page back:
turska wrote:
I'd like to interject that the rules on that page aren't the only ones that apply to this submission - after watching the run, this looks like a Vault run in the entertainment department, so the game choice rules for the Vault would also apply. Specifically, the following:
Hacks (defined as being modifications of an existing eligible game) are not eligible for this category. We demand hacks with entertainment value, therefore they are judged by the Moon tier requirements.
Unlicensed and homebrew games are eligible but may be judged on a game-by-game basis based on their notability.
Since this game is not a hack, the first rule is not applicable. Instead, what determines this game's eligibility for Vault as a homebrew game is its notability; googling the game produces some results, including around 30000 download hits for v2.0 on its googlecode page. Going by that, it seems notable enough to qualify for the Vault in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
jlun2 wrote:
jlun2 wrote:
Given that it's a homebrew game, whats the rule for it? Can any port of some existing game be accepted here? If someone made a unofficial port of Super Mario Bros on the Snes as well, can I go TAS it, get it published, and say "I hold the record for fastest SMB TAS"?
If we're going to accept any homebrew now, what's the verdict for this? Infact, can I just make my own game and TAS it?
You can make your own game and TAS it.
If the game and the TAS is well done and makes it to at least moons, no reason to reject.
If the game or TAS isn't so great, we'll look closer into factors on game popularity, how unique the gameplay is, and so on.
If the TAS exploits cheating you built in just for your TAS, that's a reason to reject.
We also won't be accepting dozens of variations of the same game.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
It says: "We don't allow hacks that only serve to change the looks of the original game. Hacks must provide unique gameplay."
Not to belabor the point, but this isn't just a graphical change, so it's not a great example of that. They messed with the core game as well (obstacle spawn rates), and with the game as simple as it is, that's a pretty big change from every other version of DK.
