Essentials

  • Emulator used: FCEU 0.98.16
  • Genre: Platform
  • Aims for fastest time
    • Takes damage to save time
  • updated: moozooh's suggested screenshot (the greatest screenshot in the history of the world)

Version Change

Note: This run uses the (U) version of Bionic Commando. The previous movie by Genisto used the (J) version.
The initial reason was to include the hilariously bad dialogue. It has been said that the (J) version is the "harder" version, but we have found that to be not entirely true. There are quite a few differences, some which made the (U) version faster, and some which made the (J) version faster.
Regarding a ROM version change, the Rules page states the following:
If there is already a published video, do not use a different ROM than what it uses, unless the new movie is obviously better for reasons that are not only caused by the version change, or the ROM is superior (or a language change), and you can show how it should be compared to the existing movie.
Since the previous run was done with the (J) version, a direct comparison of end times is not an informative enough way to measure the differences in play. So, we've separated the differences into four categories and totaled them up.
In-level difference - Gained 1463 frames
This is the (mostly) directly comparable improvement gained during each level. Time was gained from better technique for many sections, especially the bosses, as well as retracting more with the grappling hook, which moves the guy a bit faster at the exchange of slightly less distance and less landing control. Time was also gained by keeping the 3-way gun for Area 7 instead of restarting the level.
Some of the in-level difference was due to in-level changes between the two versions, such as different enemy or platform placement. A rough estimation of this difference is between 60 and 90 frames.
Text speed difference - Lost 3185 frames
The text boxes scroll slower and hold more words in this version.
Scene change difference - Gained 110 frames
Minor differences in the number of frames between two controllable scenes, such as the title screen and room transitions. This was usually faster in the (U) version.
Map route difference - Gained 1741 frames
Slower text changes the relative position of the trucks during a given route on the world map, because the helicopter does not begin traveling to another area until the text "Ok. We'll move." is fully displayed, but the trucks begin moving immediately after selecting "Transfer". This allowed for better route on the world map, with more direct routes to some areas, as well as playing one less overhead stage. (This same route in the (J) version will enter six overhead stages.)
Total difference - Gained 129 frames
If you'd like to see a complete spreadsheet of this data broken down for each segment, please ask.

Cardboard's comments

I HAVE PAID MY DUES

JXQ's comments

The Bionic Commando (J) run on this site has been one of my favorites ever since I've been here. It sometimes felt odd obsoleting it.
This game is remarkably stable to hex-edit in early improvements found into a run that is farther along. This game is remarkably unstable with FCEU while rerecording in a laggy area, such as 6, 9, 10, or 11.
Thanks to Cardboard for being my partner, and to Genisto for his previous run.

Truncated: This movie has a better route and much better playing in the levels than the previous movie.
In response to all the arguments about the version switch: I dislike version switches. If it was up to me, the rules would state that all movies be played on (U) versions, unless it didn't exist or (E) or (J) included a glitch or shortcut or game element not in the (U) version. That way we wouldn't have any of this nonsense, or people switching ROMs just because the intro or dialogue is shorter, which has no bearing on the quality of play.
Also because i dislike version switches, I'm glad that this movie has now changed back to the "real" version, which the first published movie was made with, before it changed to the (J) version for no good reason at all.
Bisqwit: I don't think we have reached a concensus about whether this should obsolete the J version or not. I'm putting it on delayed. And, I disagree with the assessment of "no good reason at all"; in my opinion, Feitclub's reasoning re: J version was good.
BoltR: Since there is no rush to make a decision about this movie, and it's just causing an argument; I am setting the status to Needs More Info. We can wait until the updated (J) version is complete and pick up the debate from there. Blame version changing.
Bisqwit: Setting back on accepted, and to obsolete the current J version. However, the question what happens when the next J version is submitted, is still open. Some say only U versions should be accepted from here on, and some say any faster version regardless of version should be accepted. There may be someone who also thinks the next J version should be published alongside, but it doesn't seem to be a likely option. Such decision however does not need to be made until such movie exists and is submitted. However, if this movie is still in the workbench at that time, it will be delayed because then also its fate is in question. (We don't publish movies that already have their obsoleter in the workbench.)
Bisqwit: Processing.

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TorZelan
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Posts: 33
Location: Northern Sweden
Bisqwit wrote:
I suppose the star can be recycled… Aqfaq's post is a good suggestion, but I want to hear more opinions :)
My opinion is that aqfaq's suggestion is good! :)
Gamer, musician, bonesword wielder.
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TorZelan wrote:
Bisqwit wrote:
I suppose the star can be recycled… Aqfaq's post is a good suggestion, but I want to hear more opinions :)
My opinion is that aqfaq's suggestion is good! :)
My opinion is that TorZelan's opinion is good.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
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I agree with Aqfaq.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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I don't see any reasoning at all in feitclub's submission. He lists some differences between the two games. He states that it's up to you (Bisqwit) if you want to 1) replace it because it's faster 2) list it as a second game. That time, you chose 1). The situation is exactly the same as now; this is faster. If version differences are taken into consideration, it is actually quite a lot faster, about 23 seconds, than a version that most people thought was "OMG WTF!" and which has had a star for a long time. But for some reason (which is unclear to me) you want to choose 2) this time. The old version won't disappear just because it is obsoleted. You can still compare them if you think video game censorship is an interesting topic. Because of that I don't see this as a good arguement to keep two versions of this game. Also, when you have stated that no game should have more than 3 variants published, having two movies for the same game with the exact same goals and largely the same content sounds very strange to me. Other advantages I see with using (U) versions (for any game): * it is the version familiar to the majority of our viewers * it has dialogue and commands in a language a majority of the viewership can understand * it avoids these kinds disputes. If you are going to revert my decision, I think you should state what it's going to be instead. Like JXQ said, it feels like "reach a consensus" in this case really means you think we should change our minds and start to agree with you, which we don't and probably won't. I think 39 to 3 is a good enough consensus.
In my opinion, the uncensored theme in the game is of bigger entertainment than the Engrish dialog texts. .... The question is, is it of majority or minority opinion?
Going through the topic, this is what i found: Prefers BC / Obsolete: Kyrsimys, Cardboard, JXQ, hero of the day, adelikat, mmbossman, quietkane, Banarak, VirtualAlex, Dasrik, FreshFeeling, and me. (12 people) Prefers HnF / Should not obsolete: Phil, ventuz, Bisqwit. (3 people) In other words, that opinion is in the clear minority.
upthorn
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Not that it matters any, but after watching both runs, my vote would be to unpublish Hitler no Fukkatsu and reject this run as well as any future improvements. The US version has too much text, making the parts in between levels last way too long, and the Japanese version's text isn't understandable, making it break the flow. Even without the text, the helicopter segments are incredibly slow, boring, and unavoidable. Furthermore, a more entertaining run of "Captain America and The Avengers", a faster game with similar gameplay, including the in-between level segments was recently rejected. The game(s) is/are boring and slow. Even the swinging action is incredibly dull and slow. If there weren't a movie of this up on the site already, I'd expect this run to be rejected for poor game choice.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
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Guys on IRC wrote:
<jimsfriend> (02:41:58) PhilCoter: Bisqwit: pm ;) <jimsfriend> (02:49:56) NesVideoAgent: Post edited by Bisqwit (WorkB: #1513: Cardboard & JXQ's NES Bionic Commando in 14:03.38): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/123612#123612 <Cardboard> Hahaha. <jimsfriend> so i guess it was seconds <jimsfriend> (02:52:36) NesVideoAgent: Post edited by Bisqwit (WorkB: #1513: Cardboard & JXQ's NES Bionic Commando in 14:03.38): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/123612#123612
Now, you guys MIGHT have been discussing the weather, politics, or the future of space crafts, but, IF the matter was touching this subject, please explain what that was about. Also, comparing a ROM-choice to a usage of a not yet supported emulator is... well... stupid, if I may say so. For that matter, feitclub made a poor choice when he changed ROM back in the days, in my opinion. Much poorer choice than we did.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
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Cardboard wrote:
Now, you guys MIGHT have been discussing the weather, politics, or the future of space crafts, but, IF the matter was touching this subject, please explain what that was about.
Phil pointed out that he had sent me messages earlier this morning, but I answered that I had read them already. In case you're implying some kind of conspiracy, let me clarify that my edit had nothing to do with Phil's messages. EDIT: Or not entirely true ― Phil's messages were indeed of this same subject. But my actions were not caused by those messages.
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Truncated wrote:
Prefers HnF / Should not obsolete: Phil, ventuz, Bisqwit. (3 people)
You can easily add Genisto and Feitclub. From http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1545 , cideprojekt prefers the Japanese version. Also, it worth reading original topic: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36&start=0
JXQ
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Posts: 3132
I'm wondering how much of a majority would be required to re-accept this submission, if the current majority is not enough? Just because Genisto and Feitclub did runs on the (J) version does not automatically mean that they agree with you, Phil. In fact, Feitclub left the issue to Bisqwit, as others have pointed out, which is not the same stance that you have.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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Phil, you may want to let Genisto, Feitclub, and ciderprojekt speak for themselves about the issue, instead of putting words in their mouths. Everyone can change their mind over time, especially when presented with new evidence and facts, and this specific issue hasn't been addressed in any other specific thread.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
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This argument is stupid, the only reason that we're even having this debate is because Phil just doesn't want his friend's TAS obsoleted and is acting like a big baby. I usually like how you are direct and straight to the point, Phil, but it's really getting old and annoying that you can never admit that someone has obsoleted your (or Genisto's) movie. Defending every single run you or Genisto ever made is just not cool when someone's clearly beaten your time. As for the version debate, can we PRETTY PLEASE FINALLY get an absolute rule about which version to use? Is it really so hard? How about this for a rule: Always use the (U) ROM if available. When trying to obsolete a movie, use the same ROM as the previous author. If you wish to use a different ROM, discuss the change with Bisqwit BEFOREHAND. Inability to do so WILL result in immediate rejection (this should of course be actually enforced). EDIT: Haha, ciderprojekt.
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Kyrsimys wrote:
This argument is stupid, the only reason that we're even having this debate is because Phil just doesn't want his friend's TAS obsoleted
An interesting point. Would people honestly care that JXQ and I used a different ROM if DK64_MASTER, jimsfriend, or xebra had made the previous movie? Honest answer, please. (Other than the previous author, of course, he/she might be upset about it) This is (Hopefully) my last post in this topic. I have almost lost interest in the fate of this run, and won't raise more hell about it.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
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Kyrsimys wrote:
This argument is stupid, the only reason that we're even having this debate is because Phil just doesn't want his friend's TAS obsoleted
Cardboard wrote:
An interesting point.
I'd say this was the interesting point in Kyrsimys' post:
Kyrsimys wrote:
As for the version debate, can we PRETTY PLEASE FINALLY get an absolute rule about which version to use?
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Cardboard: Your question is about favoritism. No, the author of previous movie has no part in my arguments.
JXQ wrote:
Reading the thread, it seems that most people who mention the version change are either happy with it, or indifferent.
If that's so… So then the question is, should this (O)bsolete the current movie or become an (A)uxiliary one? A) We don't have a precedent on both J and U versions of the same game on same console being published. I am not principally opposed to this becoming one, but as it is with precedents, there's always later going to be someone who submits a hard-worked alternative movie without asking anything and says "but it was done before, why not now", which is why the decision should not be made lightly. Politics, politics. Annoying stuff. O) This option should be weighed against (A). How happy are those happy people to see the U version replace the J version, pros and cons considering? [Edit: Less "slanted" language.]
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Let's not forget that obsoleting the run on J version with the run done on U doesn't: 1) erase the J version from existence — if one like it more, no-one is prohibiting them from playing it; 2) erase the previous run from existence — it's still available as a .fcm download.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
JXQ
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Bisqwit wrote:
How happy are those happy people to see the censored version replace the original version?
This language is slanted toward your goal. (U) and (J) would be a more fair comparison. Your quote is comparable to me asking "How happy would you be to see the faster run get rejected in favor of the slower run?"
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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JXQ wrote:
Just because Genisto and Feitclub did runs on the (J) version does not automatically mean that they agree with you, Phil.
You are right but they still prefer HnF.
mmbossman wrote:
Phil, you may want to let Genisto, Feitclub, and ciderprojekt speak for themselves about the issue, instead of putting words in their mouths. Everyone can change their mind over time, especially when presented with new evidence and facts, and this specific issue hasn't been addressed in any other specific thread.
It's not what I meant. It's just that last we know, that's what they think. If they had changed their mind or not, we don't know.
Cardboard wrote:
Kyrsimys wrote:
This argument is stupid, the only reason that we're even having this debate is because Phil just doesn't want his friend's TAS obsoleted
An interesting point.
It's not evident to give an opinion without being insulted but well it's part of the game Like I said if it obsoletes the J version, I won't cry. It has happened many times and what can I do? Nothing. But before it happens, I am giving my opinion and try to convince people. Isn't what the workbench for? It's not, Phil defends Genisto. We had many TASes obsoleted, so that argument is even more stupid. Edit: From IRC and here, minorty people think that I do that because I am bad loser. They said that I can't admit the run is faster. Hmm hmm read carefully Mr.
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Faster version = teh win.
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
JXQ
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laughing_gas wrote:
Faster version = teh win.
To be fair to the comparison, I should point out (again) that (J) has the potential for fastest absolute time.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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I speak (and read) English. I own Bionic Commando (not Hitler Kung Fu, or whatever it's called). I'd prefer an English run over the previous one, which is in Japanese, even if it was slightly less awesome (and the one in question is not). Therefore, I'd vote yes if I was not too lazy to click on a button.
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I just watched both versions, and I'm going to vote this one a "meh" not because it was poorly played (in fact it was quite well played and I liked watching it) but because I didn't like how the truck scenes were handled vs the preexisting run. I do think the U version should obsolete the J version, mostly because there are almost no differences between the two with regards to the levels played (but I also think the J version is the better game for many reasons, most of which require actually playing at a slower pace and playing other levels besides these to see). So.. I like the use of "free time" (time you have to do things that don't count against your total time) in the previous run better, and I like the Japanese game version better, but I think the US game version should be published or preferred here and this run is very well executed. Meh vote, vote to obsolete J (with a sentence about the differences in the movie description and a link to the obsoleted movie), vote to have the truck scenes replayed.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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BoltR wrote:
Since there is no rush to make a decision about this movie, and it's just causing an argument; I am setting the status to Needs More Info. We can wait until the updated (J) version is complete and pick up the debate from there.
I think this is a very bad choice.: - If both runs will be published, then there was no need for the wait. - If only the US version will be published, then someone is going to spend lots of time on a run that is going to be rejected, which is a pure waste of time for that person. - If only the J version will be published, then why not decide now? We can already see the US version, and we know how the J version is going to look.
JXQ
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I'm surprised that there are this many people who dislike our play-around time during explosions. We tried to make each level distinct without copying Genisto very much. Some of his were great, but some were not. The wobbling, 30hz fire, and just walk to the left are the ones I didn't like. In the (U) truck stages, there is not an ambush of four enemies at the beginning like the (J) version, so there are less targets to shoot at. We kept the rocket launcher for the second truck stage because it saved a couple frames to change later than to change then, and also to differentiate from the previous run's play. Speaking of truck stages, one nice advantage of the (U) version I'd like to point out that seems to be getting overlooked is not having to play the same truck stage back to back (and playing one less overall by skipping through it on the map). I really disliked what Genisto did in his final truck stage (walk forward and get hit a lot), but he most likely wanted to show something different than the previous truck stage which was only ten seconds earlier.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
JXQ
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BoltR: Waiting for another run to possibly be completed is a horrible decision. There is good discussion going on here; there's no reason to not let it take whatever course it may. I feel like the question of "which run would you prefer?" is simply getting reasked until the answer is the (J) version. The majority is clearly there, they've already answered this question, so why is this being delayed further?
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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JXQ wrote:
I'm surprised that there are this many people who dislike our play-around time during explosions. We tried to make each level distinct without copying Genisto very much. Some of his were great, but some were not. The wobbling, 30hz fire, and just walk to the left are the ones I didn't like.
The walk to the left one was my favorite, actually. It was the sense of "Job's done, going home." My least favorite was firing at 30hz. Anyway I didn't mention this when I said I liked J version's "personality" more because I liked a lot of the core explosions here, too, though what's possible is constrained by disabled buttons.
JXQ wrote:
In the (U) truck stages, there is not an ambush of four enemies at the beginning like the (J) version, so there are less targets to shoot at. We kept the rocket launcher for the second truck stage because it saved a couple frames to change later than to change then, and also to differentiate from the previous run's play.
This is not why I didn't like the truck play. Genisto did 3 truck stages, which was one too many, sure, and the third one he did was done in a way I didn't like. But the other two, one was "walk by as if nothing's happening, perfectly dodge every attack and look like you're not" and the other was "One shot, one kill, destroy every enemy in range". Yours were "Autofire and missed shots everywhere and look sloppy" and "Kind of okay but imprecise looking Rocket Launcher".
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
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