Post subject: Phantasmagoria of Flower View NoMiss Marisa
Joined: 6/5/2021
Posts: 10
First off hi and so. I'm considering something and wanted to ask if it's worth the trouble in terms of an interesting playthrough, otherwise human impossible. As in topic, anyone knowing this game should get the idea, the final stage on any difficulty imposes losing a round before going down a gear and giving a realistic chance to finish it (with minor exception for 3 characters which AI script is flawed against, Marisa is not one of them). The goal is finishing a full run on Normal difficulty without losing the round and without taking any hit at all. The time is secondary and will drag out actually, given that CPU is set to "godlike" mode.
Joined: 6/5/2021
Posts: 10
Sorry for double post for the moment but I'll like to ask and explain this a bit better. This is in fact done by now but I face a few technical problems. First since I knew it'll end up a chore I didn't bother with any external recording of it at play or follow any guidelines doing it. So what's there is merely the replay game itself saves. Second the whole thing goes over 78min total. I never recorded any game videos but I learned that software choice and whole process isn't obvious at all. I didn't see any anything "clear and simple", that's for sure. The actual questions go down to whether or not it's worth bothering about uploading it and if so, I would need some tips to do it, is there really no simple free "record video" utility without a water mark?
Patashu
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Citizen564374 wrote:
The actual questions go down to whether or not it's worth bothering about uploading it and if so, I would need some tips to do it, is there really no simple free "record video" utility without a water mark?
It's 2021, you don't have to use Unregistered HyperCam 2 anymore. Check out OBS: https://obsproject.com/ It's free and very user friendly.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Pokota
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You could also upload the replay to Userfiles and ask someone to encode on your behalf
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
Joined: 6/5/2021
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Thanks for answers, I've learned about OBS in past and run into some compatibility issues with quick access. Theoretically could move stuff to other PC (two rooms away) and do there but... I'm on a tight schedule lately, it would be a hassle (no denying I'm a bit on lazy side but not much, all healthy attitude I say). For Userfiles here: won't accept format (it is game specific format), could work around that fact and upload file elsewhere, I'll see what I can do.
Joined: 6/5/2021
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Hilarious how I can't even upload this on certain dedicated TH replay servers for size restriction (over 256kb). I'll just make it the easy way to at least post something since I've already started topic: https://easyupload.io/nlft1k Up to 30 days valid, for anyone unfamiliar with this game note this an in-game replay to be run from game itself. It's easy enough to figure and if anyone could then spare a moment to record it of to video format, wow great, It'll make TASvid headlines. If not maybe at least someone will have a laugh, I actually get tired just from watching... just joking, it's so good I watch it every day for breakfast. Oh, and one more thing came up on top of all inconveniences: apparently the English patch needs to be used in order to play it out correctly, info here: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View#English_patches and the patch as there: https://mega.nz/folder/DdUlBJxC#n-_nJnYlZTzozfq9DspAGQ I invite anyone unfamiliar to have a look either way, not just for the sake of this posted playthrough. The game is interesting and high quality in its own right.
Pokota
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If the translation patch impacts the replay files, then that's an issue with the translation patch.
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
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Pokota wrote:
If the translation patch impacts the replay files, then that's an issue with the translation patch.
Yes it is and it comes from the fact that some dialogues ended up with more lines ("pop up dialogue boxes") in En than Jp, so we take more frames/input to skip dialogue, the gameplay itself is certainly not affected. There was some decision making about that, shortly after posting I vaguely remembered reading about that and for sure I myself made the decision to play this from En patch knowing it can happen. Only now I forgot about it briefly, I actually played this a year ago.
Post subject: Re: Phantasmagoria of Flower View NoMiss Marisa
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Citizen564374 wrote:
if it's worth the trouble in terms of an interesting playthrough, otherwise human impossible
Just no-miss by itself isn't impossible. Unless you mean to do something else, e.g. maximize kill speed and such. PoFV is a PvP game so you have plenty of opportunity to turn it into a speedrun.
Citizen564374 wrote:
The goal is finishing a full run on Normal difficulty without losing the round and without taking any hit at all.
It's a TAS, why go lower than Lunatic?
Citizen564374 wrote:
Second the whole thing goes over 78min total.
This sounds about ten times longer than it should, considering unassisted speedruns on any difficulty take only 8–10 minutes. Also, in order to submit the file here (as in make a publishable submission) you will need to use Hourglass or libTAS and provide a movie made via one of them. And it will have to be done on an unpatched copy of the game because it's a submission requirement. One of the reasons is that everyone with the copy of a game and the emulator/TAS environment should be able to reproduce your replay without having to look for extra files which may have changed since the making of the movie and would hence require tracking down the specific versions.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Post subject: Re: Phantasmagoria of Flower View NoMiss Marisa
Joined: 6/5/2021
Posts: 10
moozooh wrote:
Just no-miss by itself isn't impossible. (...) PoFV is a PvP game so you have plenty of opportunity to turn it into a speedrun. (...) It's a TAS, why go lower than Lunatic? (...) unassisted speedruns on any difficulty take only 8–10 minutes
I'll quote like this to mark the points I'll try to tackle, however to really know what's meant here and what's going on in this game: you must have a look by yourself and know detailed mechanics. Otherwise the questions are both hard to answer and understand. NoMiss on Normal is virtually impossible with a number of characters, again you'd need to have a look, the main point is that there are over a dozen of available character choices to play with and the difficulty ends up completely different for some of them. The same goes for speedruns you refer to, these are only valid for 2~3 of available character and thus are a totally different category. Why not Lunatic goes down to details also and I know it may be counter intuitive but going strictly for that (no hit, i.e. "wall vs. wall") Normal is in fact the hardest. It comes from the fact that on Hard/Lunatic attacks start on higher level and overall game becomes more intense. This goes for both sides however, and in the end the odds to score a hit against AI also seem slightly higher (Last stage duration on Hard about 40min, Lunatic 30min), where from performance and actually difficulty in terms of TAS it will remain roughly same. (edit: consequently breaking 1B points on Hard/Lunatic as here becomes out of reach as well, this posted game is highest score for a Arcade/Story run I know of).
Post subject: Re: Phantasmagoria of Flower View NoMiss Marisa
Joined: 6/5/2021
Posts: 10
moozooh wrote:
Also, in order to submit the file here (as in make a publishable submission) you will need to use Hourglass or libTAS and provide a movie made via one of them. And it will have to be done on an unpatched copy of the game because it's a submission requirement. One of the reasons is that everyone with the copy of a game and the emulator/TAS environment should be able to reproduce your replay without having to look for extra files which may have changed since the making of the movie and would hence require tracking down the specific versions.
Yes, last to answer this part: too bad, I considered it might be the case. On side note Hourglass suffers quite some compatibility issues, I didn't have a look what's the state of libTAS development. But the patch issue is more clear than using utilities for sure, I should've decide to play this one game of clean last game version but remembering what led me to doing otherwise I'm not really bothered about that. Possibly I will continue to play exactly as that for future ideas with the game.
Post subject: Re: Phantasmagoria of Flower View NoMiss Marisa
Pokota
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moozooh wrote:
Just no-miss by itself isn't impossible. Unless you mean to do something else, e.g. maximize kill speed and such. PoFV is a PvP game so you have plenty of opportunity to turn it into a speedrun.
PoFV's final boss fight actually does require you to take a miss (which is part of why C564374 went for 78 minutes - they turned the unwinnable phase into an arbitrarily long playaround), so it's literally impossible to make a perfect "No Miss" by the standards that this community will judge by (to my memory the Touhou community makes an exception for PoFV No Miss specifically)
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Ah yeah, I get what you mean now. Anyway, I've watched parts of the replay so I can more or less tell how this would've played out. In stages 1 to 3 you pretty much never chain and so struggle to keep up with this random unassisted Marisa Normal replay (note: watch on the unpatched game) I just found in terms of speed. This alone would be unacceptable by any standards, so I just skipped to the final stage to see what you do there. In the final stage the lack of savestate use becomes especially evident since you're just keeping yourself busy surviving instead of aggressively setting up kill scenarios for the AI, for which Marisa is actually very well-positioned due to her Ex attacks limiting horizontal mobility. If I remember the mechanics correctly, the ideal strategy for a TAS would be spamming level 2 spells (a risky thing to do in unassisted play) to have them reflected by the enemy onto your screen, reflect them back again via well-timed fairy and bullet chaining, and finishing off with a level 3/4 spell when the screen becomes sufficiently cluttered from the back-and-forth. At least that's the one thing that comes to mind considering the AI is a filthy cheater and takes advantage of TAS-like movement itself, and waiting it to make a mistake instead of manipulating it into making one is orders of magnitude slower. But manipulation isn't possible unless you can rewind to an arbitrary moment and try again. So yeah, I'm afraid you'll have to remake it using Hourglass/libTAS (if you can get either to work) so you can take advantage of the rest of the TASing tools. Slowdown alone won't do.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 6/5/2021
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moozooh wrote:
If I remember the mechanics correctly, the ideal strategy for a TAS would be spamming level 2 spells (a risky thing to do in unassisted play) to have them reflected by the enemy onto your screen, reflect them back again via well-timed fairy and bullet chaining, and finishing off with a level 3/4 spell when the screen becomes sufficiently cluttered from the back-and-forth.
This is indeed what's going on for the 60min, except going for lv3 is extremely rare due to the necessity of keeping a bar and not get caught off guard. Overall I would have to precisely double check on that but I think the chain was lost only 2 times (as the side aim, just after no hit survival priority). Score was therefore in mind, especially still breaking 1 billion. With that said thanks for clarifying few things about guidelines, software and requirements here.
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moozooh wrote:
you'll have to remake it using Hourglass/libTAS (if you can get either to work) so you can take advantage of the rest of the TASing tools. Slowdown alone won't do.
One last thing I'd like share about that after long AI observation: stating won't be of any advantage for the process apart from ensuring safety in run in case of mistake. The way it unfolds there's no practical way to manipulate the attacks, hit odds remain approximately the same and low enough to simply result in save/loading for several hours without particularly different result.
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Of course there is. The principle of luck manipulation is making something with low odds of happening guaranteed to happen by finding a sequence of inputs that leads to that result. Like with almost every other game, nothing in PoFV is truly random, and whatever the AI does is seeded from the player input, which makes the built-in replay system work in the first place. Since the actions of the player invariably determine the actions of the AI in the same way every time, it's a question of finding what actions of the player lead to a less favorable position for the AI. And as long as something can happen earlier, there is a sequence of input that will make it happen. Finding that sequence or one close enough is achieved via trying out different actions at different times and going with whichever leads to the result the soonest. We have an extensive collection of movies that do that to a very significant extent (the Castlevania runs and most fighting/brawling games are great examples). In case with PoFV you can help that happen by setting up the enemy screen in a way that makes collisions more likely and this way reduce the volume of the total testing space you'd need to sift through in order to force the AI into a collision. But perhaps you can actually trick it into colliding with any bullet that passes close to it if that can happen at all. Make no mistake, I don't expect it to be quick or easy, because I know for sure it won't be, and nobody here would expect you to find a truly optimal sequence for every stage. But in terms of the final result a publishable run must be much better than what an unassisted player could realistically attain even if they could dodge bullets indefinitely and without regard for their own safety. If/when you decide to look into it deeper and use a better tool, do post WIPs in this thread so we can track your progress and give feedback. We also have a Discord if you're interested.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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Thank you for invitation. Of course I do see and understood beforehand your point regarding RNG and manipulating game mechanics. I have much interest and spent a lot of time on gaming ideas, not just strictly for Windows, also various emulated systems. Further more I'm familiar with Hourglass and used in past, if only briefly. However with all this said the initial reason for my post was merely sharing what I consider an interesting and entertaining play. I'm perfectly aware it could be grinded by some % and also where this could be done but given nothing comparable at the time being (and for a year since I saved it in fact) I spontaneously decided to post it half or even entirely anonymously. Maybe it'll end up interesting enough for someone to pick up the idea of breaking it down one by one, I'd be very interested in it myself but it wasn't my interest here to begin with nor am I fond of referring to saved states, it is a too boring process for me to consider.
Pokota
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that's too bad. A TASVideos-level TAS of PoFV on Lunatic would be a sight to behold
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?