The following quote comes from the last zk547's Metal Slug 3 submission thread.
zk547 wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
Something to disscuss: Although this TAS and x2poet's MS TASes don't abuse death, I think that "deathless" should be removed from the future goals of Metal Slug TASes.
I personally like not abusing deaths when it comes to using 2 players at level 8. I think it shows complete mastery over the game better because even good MS players struggle to beat this game with 2 players at level 8 without dying. We're already getting a slower time by intentionally playing at this setting for more entertainment value and I think the sense of not dying once through the whole game adds to that value. If it was 1 player level 4, then I wouldn't mind abusing death because then we can go for pure speed. (Though I guess you could then ask why people don't speedrun this game at level 1 for the fastest times). Just my thought on the use of deaths in MS TASes.
I agree with zk547. Death abuse does only insert sloppyness in Metal Slug runs: it's just a cheap and lame way to save time.
By the way, here is a rejected Metal Slug X run by x2poet that abuses death:
x2poet wrote:
There are the main reasons why I struggle to use continue.
1.Making the jumping after the train smoothly.
2.Making sure that boss battle have enough items because of the power of R is very low.
3.Machine Gun can hit the 5-3 door smoothly and need not wait the door destroyed.
4.continue is not only used in this game,some other games in this web have used continue and borrowing lives.
5.If squarrel king can use continue,I have no doubt to use continue for adding more lives.
6.Continue is availiable in Arcade but just need coins,if coin is the problem,well the PS version can?
7.Continue can make 4 members jump out to show in this run.
8.It can be regarded as a script.
9.It can avoid many lags.
10.It can make the dropping place right to get the Frameshot.
11.Using pistals to hit the train looks stupid.
12.I can only die 2 lives.But dying three lives have more advantage for entertaining this run.And this add the entertainment but other games do not have the chance to use this.If I have 4 lives is it a problem?
13.There are 20 more different experiments that I take no death there,it will make the boss battle looks foolish.Not only because of the longer time.
14.There is a fat getting thin time for player-2.
15.It can also not use continue but waiting for the conuting down for adding new player.
16.The item manipulation for boss battle's experiments:
(1)Using 1 frameshot and the 10 bombs in robot. (2)Using 1 frameshot and 5 bombs in the robot and give up it. (3)Using 1 frameshot and 6 bombs in the robot and give up it. (4)Using 1 frameshot and give up the robot at first and pick two R.That is still not enough to beat the boss.And it is in Level 4. (5)Using 2 frameshots and give up the robot at first.If not use bombs,it is not enough to beat it. (6)Using 2 frameshots and use the robot' 2 bombs. (7)3 bombs. (8)All 4-10 bombs. (9)At first give up the robot and use normal bombs 1 or more. (10)At first give up the robot and only hit it by frameshot,that is also not enough.
So large entertainment killed without what you see the continue used.
DarkKobold wrote:
DarkKobold: This run has now been sitting on the bench for nearly a month, and Nach has been M.I.A. on this submission, so the senior judge is taking over.
First off, this run is hell to sync, and I have been unable to verify it, despite numerous attempts. This alone would not warrant rejection, as we do have a publishable encode.
Second of all, this run doesn't play at the highest difficulty. Now, this also shouldn't be a sole reason for rejection, especially since it only adds health to bosses. (I actually think the difficulty this is played at should be up for debate.) However, the decision on the previous movie stated that further movies should use the highest difficulty, and I think that should hold weight.
However, the biggest issue is the use of continues, and it is two-fold for this submission.
First off, death would have been sufficient to restore grenades. Continues, on the other hand, gives you a free "Heavy Machine Gun," which is an advantage over the the player's starting stats. So, essentially, you use money to buy a stronger position, which I would equate to the use of a cheat code. In other words, if a code were used to get the heavy machine gun to fall from the sky, it would be viewed in the same light.
Finally, the biggest reason for this rejection is that the use of the continue was poorly done. You died multiple times in the same spot, so that the continue could be used. Now, if continues were going to be used, it would have been trivial to enter the menu, and adjust the number of lives down to one - Or to die in other places, so that grenades could have been reset and used elsewhere. Essentially, it looked like poor planning, and sloppy.
I would reconsider a new submission if the author fixed the use of the continue, and redid the run from there (not fixing the difficulty). As I'm able to get this run to sync up to the end boss, perhaps the first issue would also be taken care of.
DarkKobold: In light of the new rule, this submission was well received, and is being given a second chance. Whether or not it is a rule is no longer a question, but should an exception be made for this movie.
DarkKobold: This movie had a less than positive response. Judging by #3040: x2poet's Arcade Metal Slug - Super Vehicle-001 in 12:10.23, people prefer a no death run of Metal Slug games.
I'd also like to point out the existence of this movie rule:
Additionally, buying continues with coins in arcade games is considered to be a cheat-like practice, as it provides the player with a free and virtually unlimited power resource, and as such goes against the typical concept of a TAS.
Now, this only affects continues, not deaths within the same credit. However, I also think abusing death just makes the Metal Slug runs sloppier, considering the nature of the Metal Slug games.
I think the community's stance on using continues in Metal Slug was made clear way back when x2poet submitted his first Metal Slug runs that abused death and continues. With the exception of mtvf1's most recent Metal Slug 7 run, it looked like the community preferredthat Metal Slug runsdon't use continues.
What HappyLee is suggesting (I believe), is that Metal Slug runs only abuse death and not continues (so die at most 2 times), which is a slightly different matter cause you would still be clearing the game with 1 credit/"coin." Regardless, I still stand by what I said in the submission thread.
Currently Working on:
Metal Slug X - Mission 1 (On hold)
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
For me, clear time is the most important factor. The lower the time, the more entertaining it is, as I am entertained by clever efficiency. I do want death abuse, except in a category with a goal of purposely avoiding it.
If deaths save significant amounts of time and add to entertainment, sure, why not. Continues are another deal, and I was very vocal against them for reasons already stated; my position hasn't changed.
Should I make this a poll, btw?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
When the x2poet submission arrived and was rejected, I had the impression that abusing death in Arcade games is something that only purists care about, and runs submitted to tasvideos should be judged by this site's standards, rather than purist ideals about how an Arcade game "should" be played.
However, entertainment factor should be taken into consideration. Death abuse can be a neat and unexpected strategy to stock back up on resources, or it can be seen as a cheap copout to get of a tricky situation, showing little mastery over the game.
Like with other things such as difficulty setting, I believe it should be the author's reponsibility to make the decision on what's best for entertainment. Personally, I didn't mind seeing it in x2poet's run back then, but I can also see the merit in a deathless run. Maybe for some games, both a deathless run and a death abuse run could be accepted and published alongside eachother.
I do however agree that using Continues in the run as opposed do deaths effectively constitute a cheat code and should generally not be allowed.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
Nah, deaths are lame.
If you only care about completion time then play on the easiest difficulty.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
I'm fine with deaths, but not fine with continues.
Many shmup world record scoring runs use deaths on purpose to restock on resources. This is especially the case in Battle Garegga - it is nearly impossible to beat the game without dying at strategic times, due to the way the rank system works.
Continuing, however, is intended by arcade developers to be the way weaker players can bypass the game's difficulty and systems and see the ending. It either resets your score to 0 or marks it as having used continues (such as by setting the lowest digit to 1), making the run tainted or incomplete. Many arcade games don't even give you a true ending if you use continues.
What HappyLee is suggesting (I believe), is that Metal Slug runs only abuse death and not continues (so die at most 2 times), which is a slightly different matter cause you would still be clearing the game with 1 credit/"coin."
The DIP switch setting for the number of lives per credit can be set to 99. This would allow death to be abused ad nauseam. Even in real-time, a player could complete the game using 1 credit without much difficulty.
Normally they are, but killing oneself on purpose is a different thing, which can often be seen as a smarter strategy. Not always smarter, but in Metal Slug runs, I think at least most of the times it is.
zk547 wrote:
I personally like not abusing deaths when it comes to using 2 players at level 8. I think it shows complete mastery over the game better because even good MS players struggle to beat this game with 2 players at level 8 without dying. We're already getting a slower time by intentionally playing at this setting for more entertainment value and I think the sense of not dying once through the whole game adds to that value. If it was 1 player level 4, then I wouldn't mind abusing death because then we can go for pure speed. (Though I guess you could then ask why people don't speedrun this game at level 1 for the fastest times). Just my thought on the use of deaths in MS TASes.
"Using hardest difficulty" is considered one of the basic requirements of TASes, but "deathless" is a requirement only when there are good reasons. I can think of some TASes published on this site that play the hardest difficulty and abuse deaths at the same time, so those two don't contradict each other.
We use the hardest difficulty because we don't choose the easy way out, but deaths as a strategy is not the easy way, and sometimes quite the opposite.
I'm in favor of allowing using deaths to save time. Reasons:
1. Deaths can be used only in certain places (like in space of MS3 and the train of MSX) to save time (and lots of them are pure waiting time with no action), and it doesn't hurt entertainment, but rather as a smarter strategy.
2. The current RTA runs use deaths to get more bombs, which looks smart, and well-planned.
3. Many TASes also allow deaths, including the current MS7 run.
4. I think the current RTA record holder Sukimos (probably the best Metal Slug speed runner in the world) also approves using deaths, since he has pointed out the improvement of suicide to get bombs.
As for Continue, I'm OK with it, because I don't totally get the idea of one coin being "normal play" and two coins being "cheating". The RTA runs allow Continue, but it's only useful when the player has made mistakes, like dying accidentally. I'm not sure if Continue can be useful in MS TASes, because there are only very limited places where dying saves time, and the Heavy Machine gun you get from Continue is probably the weakest weapon besides pistol. (Edit: 面点's MS3 TAS has proved that Continue can be useful to save time afterall. )
x2poet‘s old MSX TAS uses Continue at the trains, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea, because having compared it with Sukimos' MSX RTA run, it's probably faster to destroy the trains than suicide and letting them pass. I haven't done any tests, but since there is R and C and before the first train, and in TASes one can fire them a lot faster, and there is G in the second train and bombs in the third train, I think Sukimos' strategy of suicide after destroying might be the best strategy for "2 players, Level-8" TASes as well (not sure, testing is needed).
I've finally found a MS3 TAS that uses deaths and Continues properly (by 面点):
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ3MDA1MjU3Mg==.html
I think it is even faster than zk547's run in some of the places. I really enjoy the strategy of making a player appear eariler using Continue. Now I think using Continue wouldn't bad afterall, if it weren't accused of being "cheating".
Overall, I believe "1 coin" can be a solid and a better goal than "no deaths", because it limits the maximum number of deaths in 2, and avoids the "cheating" issue using Continue.
In other words, what goal makes better TASes in my opinion:
"1 coin (no Continue)" > "no limit (free coins and Continues)" > "no deaths"
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
x2poet‘s old MSX TAS uses Continue at the trains, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea, because having compared it with Sukimos' MSX RTA run, it's probably faster to destroy the trains than suicide and letting them pass. I haven't done any tests, but since there is R and C and before the first train, and in TASes one can fire them a lot faster, and there is G in the second train and bombs in the third train, I think Sukimos' strategy of suicide after destroying might be the best strategy for "2 players, Level-8" TASes as well (not sure, testing is needed).
I think it's definitely faster to destroy the trains because it takes too long for them to pass and they have useful items. There's plenty of resources that you can use to destroy them (R, C, bombs). If death is used, it's best to use it after destroying the 2nd train (same place as Sukimos' RTA). It's possible to plan so that you'll have 0 bombs and no weapons by that point.
HappyLee wrote:
I've finally found a MS3 TAS that uses deaths and Continues properly (by 面点):
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ3MDA1MjU3Mg==.html
I think it is even faster than zk547's run in some of the places. I really enjoy the strategy of making a player appear eariler using Continue. Now I think using Continue wouldn't bad afterall, if it weren't accused of being "cheating".
Oh it's definitely faster than my run in some of the places. The first 20 minutes of my run were made nearly 3 years ago, so they're really outdated (This was also when I was still pretty new to serious TASing). Not to mention the numerous improvements that can already be made in my run. Continues and deaths aside, I was mind blown from some of the strategies used in that run (using more bombs to save some G shots for Mission 1 boss, 2nd half of Mission 4). The run still ended up being slower than mine because he didn't utilize all the tricks that were known (Faster H, L-trick) and used slower strategies (not using truck glitch to kill Allen fast, getting missiles for the rockets instead of bombs) in a few sections.
I don't really consider using Continues as "cheating," but I still don't like using them because to me, they look sloppy and hurt the flow of the run. You can even abuse them to turn certain sections into "1-player sections" by letting the timer run and summoning the 2nd player back once the section has been cleared (See the two-player Metal Slug X TAS on 面点's channel and x2poet's first Metal Slug TAS that was rejected). I think this goes against the idea of a "true 2-player run."
Currently Working on:
Metal Slug X - Mission 1 (On hold)
I don't really consider using Continues as "cheating," but I still don't like using them because to me, they look sloppy and hurt the flow of the run. You can even abuse them to turn certain sections into "1-player sections" by letting the timer run and summoning the 2nd player back once the section has been cleared. I think this goes against the idea of a "true 2-player run."
I agree. It's harder to define "2-player run" that way. So "no Continue" should be a more definitive goal for 2-player runs than allowing Continues.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
I'd also like to point out the existence of this movie rule:
Additionally, buying continues with coins in arcade games is considered to be a cheat-like practice, as it provides the player with a free and virtually unlimited power resource, and as such goes against the typical concept of a TAS.
I find it curious how that's frowned upon, but using the reset button in consoles is just fine.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
fsvgm777 wrote:
I'd also like to point out the existence of this movie rule:
Additionally, buying continues with coins in arcade games is considered to be a cheat-like practice, as it provides the player with a free and virtually unlimited power resource, and as such goes against the typical concept of a TAS.
I find it curious how that's frowned upon, but using the reset button in consoles is just fine.
Because the reset button is not a power resource. Abusing coins in arcade runs is essentially the TAS equivalent to bribing your way to victory, which is considered antithetical to the concept of 'perfect play'. The reset button has nothing to do with any of that, nor is it relevant to this discussion in any way.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Because the reset button is not a power resource. Abusing coins in arcade runs is essentially the TAS equivalent to bribing your way to victory, which is considered antithetical to the concept of 'perfect play'.
And abusing the hardware, rather than, you know, actually playing the game, is not considered antithetical to the concept of 'perfect play'. Because reasons.
The reset button has nothing to do with any of that, nor is it relevant to this discussion in any way.
I'm sorry for transgressing the purity of the topic and all the mental anguish that has caused.
No need to be so caustic. :v
Reset button on home consoles is not a circuit breaker; its signal is processed in software. So it's still just a button. Now power switch would be a different issue, but we don't abuse that.
If you wanted to make a hardware abuse argument, you could direct it to e.g. closing the lid on DS games, which is actual hardware abuse. And I'd even be inclined to agree with you there. However, this is a topic about Metal Slug in particular.
EDIT: I've been told that closing the lid is also an input signal processed in software. So that can be scratched off the list as well.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I have no particular objection to use of additional credits, when it leads to faster, or more particularly, more entertaining runs. The coin switch is an input exposed to the user, and thus fair-game.
A free HMG does not sound like it would be particularly more-entertaining, particularly when
Something like Chip'n'Dale's continuous balloon abuse would make for an odd test case, were the lives counter simply another input that could be arbitrarily extended. Of course, given that the game allows so much already with proper life-gaining…
(similarly, Mystical Ninja (SNES)).
Damageless, deathless, and 1CC stipulations have a small, game-knowledge-dependent entertainment value.
There may be exploits that are only possible with TAS precision and multiple continues on coin-op games, and I feel it would be premature to foreclose against them.
You can use deaths, but not continues. No bribing your way to victory.
i agree,
death abuses are ok if the player start with the default number of life set on the arcade, it would allow strategies that take the scroring in account to gain lives to death abuse further
