Nintoaster_81, you seem at least receptive to feedback, so I am going to respond to your post, on a point-by-point basis, in the hopes that you have a better understanding of my (and possibly others') standpoint. (I started writing this before Samsara posted her response, so some of this information might be duplicated.)
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
Samsara wrote:
That's not at all what's been happening. From my perspective, we've been asking legitimate questions and have gotten no good answers in return. You guys' entire argument seems to be "Super Metroid is the greatest game ever, and that's why you're all wrong!"
There's a fine line between asking questions and interrogating. This teeters on the latter. No one here has said, "Super Metroid is the greatest game ever, and that's why you're all wrong!" You're putting words in our mouths. If anything, we're defending the category, not the game itself. I can't personally answer any of the specific TAS-related questions for obvious reasons.
All of our concerns have either been evaded or ignored entirely in favor of the things that don't really matter. Our criticism over the category was twisted into us "hating" the game. If you're going to participate in this debate, can you at least try to see this run from our perspective, instead of barging into this community and pretending you know how we operate? Christ, and you call us smug.
I don't need to pretend to know how you operate. That's stated clearly in the mission statement, submission instructions and movie rules, which I've read through. From my understanding, once a video is submitted a forum thread is automatically generated where members can scrutinize offer feedback and constructive criticism on the TAS, and also vote on its entertainment value. From that point the fate of the TAS is left in the hands of a judge, who will then determine whether the video is worthy of publishing or not. If there's anything I'm leaving out, please let me know. I'm not saying this to sound like a douche; I legitimately want to know for the sake of myself and others here who are having a hard time understanding the process.
When you read the submission instructions, did you miss this part:
Submission Instructions wrote:
The top line
We only want movies that are interesting to watch.
Failure to comply will result your movie being rejected.
Please ensure your movie is good. Do not waste the judges' time with movies that have obvious mistakes ― read the guidelines!
The underlined section is what I want to draw your attention to. The submission clearly states that about 90 seconds of errors are present. In the first fifteen minutes of the livestream, NYMX's floating head mentions two places which could be improved, one during the Ceres escape, which is right at the beginning of the game! Regardless of it taking over five months to complete this run, knowing that something in the first five minutes is wrong and then ignoring it is simply sloppy.
Under the movie rules, which is the first link off of Submission Instructions,
Movie Rules wrote:
The movie must be properly attributed
...
Crediting other users' contribution
There are no exact rules that estimate the significance of each contribution, but it's generally accepted that if you simply copy large chunks of gameplay from an earlier movie as they are, that effectively makes a new submission coauthored. Authorship isn't enforced, but the audience might become unhappy if you don't give credit where it's due. If unsure, consult with a judge.
Yes, that has been fixed now, but it does not change the fact that proper attribution was not given at the outset, and people are allowed to be upset about that.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
For the sake of argument, I'm putting myself into your shoes. My only basis for comparison is our speedrunning community, so let's say for the sake of argument that you decided to start speed running Super Metroid.
That is not how that works. If you are going to put yourself into the shoes of a TASVideos regular, you have to do it from the perspective of a TASVideos regular. In the case of such a person, you have witnessed an any% run, and the slew of obsoletions in that category (scroll down); an any% run that cares about in-game time and not total framecount, and its obsoletions; the reverse boss order run, a new branch that spawned a discussion about allowing more branches of Super Metroid, and the judge's decision to legitimize the branch; twodifferent low% (14%) runs, likely both of which will be obsoleted once a single 13% run is found because they will better meet the goal of low% than either 14% run; cpadolf's 100% item run -- the basis for NYMX's run -- and the runs it obsoletes, including one that uses the multitap to great effect; a run including the recently (by SM standards) discovered debug code and an arbitrary code execution run obsoleting a slower such run. You also have access to 257206 pages of Super Metroid theorycrafting, route planning, and discussion.
Then, someone comes along and submits something to a category that a different community cares about. Twice. And is both times generally politely told that the category he is proposing does not meet the site's standards or stated goals. Finally, he submits something that meets the site's goal (beats the game), but chooses a restriction that is not present on the site to do it, and openly states that it could be better optimized. There's going to be some resistance to adding another category to the game, particularly when the viewership seems to believe that there is nothing really new offered to the TAS community in the movie. The movie demonstrates several tricks that are not possible in realtime, but none that are new. The movie promises "never before seen shinesparks" and goes so far as to name the ones used in the run (claiming several as NYMX Original -- what is that even supposed to mean? Can I call it an Invariel Original if I shinespark one pixel to the left, or do I need to attribute it?), but shinesparks are already used consistently in the existing runs. The movie demonstrates a series of rooms that are not present in any TAS, and that is a valid comment. However, it also willingly makes speed tradeoffs so that it can visit one pixel of a square to fill it in on the map, or goes into dead end rooms that serve no purpose to a "regular" speedrun and exist to confuse or frustrate or reward (in the case of monster spawner rooms) a normal player.
But, I digress. Your example.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
You complete your first any% RTA and decide to submit it to deertier.com. To your delight, your time appears uncontested on the web site. In fact, you can submit times without even linking to a video, however times that are close to world record would likely be investigated. Now, if we're truly comparing apples to apples within the context of this discussion, a better example would be you submitting a category that's not currently listed on deertier.com. From that perspective, yes, I can see your point, and such a submission would likely need to be legitimized before a branch is created on the web site.
So, wait, you mean I have to get your site's approval before submitting my "any%, stopped for burritos, one sock" run? That's a shame. It would fit so well.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
However, 100% map has, and will continue to be a legitimate branch for Super Metroid on deertier.com.
Yes, but you're putting yourself into the shoes of a TASVideos regular, where 100% map is not a legitimate branch yet.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
I think the disconnect happens when the speedrunning community assumes that a particular category is fit for the TAS community. We see a TAS and stack it up comparatively against the best human players, and figure out the limitations of what can be realistically applied in a run. You guys take the human element out completely,
That's a bit mean. The people who work on TASes here are human, prone to error and emotion. The tools we use remove human error during replay from the equation, but they do not remove human error during route planning or execution. That would be like saying that computer programming removes the human element from logical mathematics.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
and deal with the limitations of the game itself. Both have entertainment value, but it's clear that the standards are much higher here. There's nothing wrong with that, but I guess we're not used to it.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
Samsara wrote:
It better be given where it's due. The entire beginning of the run is 100% Cpadolf's input. He deserves co-authorship credit. There's no reason not to do it, there's no harm in doing it. Again, this shouldn't be an issue. We're not the ones making it an issue, NYMX is the one focusing on it
I agree with the first part, however to say that you're not the ones making it an issue is incorrect. He was called out on it at least 4 times, even after he responded to the initial concerns on the first page of this thread. Like you, I fully expect nymx to give cpadolf full credit for his portion either as co-author or contributor, whichever is decided on.
Even though he responded to the initial criticisms on page one of this thread, he was likely called out by people who hadn't noticed that the submission text had changed, since he made no mention of it in this thread. He has changed the submission text to reflect cpadolf's contribution, but by the site's rules (above), he should be listed as a co-author.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Except that's not how we define an arbitrary goal. If the run didn't achieve its goal, it would be rejected for not achieving its goal. The matter at hand is whether or not the goal is worth publishing. I don't think so. It's arbitrary in the context of the site.
I think I was confusing "arbitrary" with "ambiguous." It's not an arbitrary goal within the context of deertier.com, but as I discussed above, the goals don't necessarily line up between the two sites, and that's fine.
Samsara wrote:
I'm sure it achieves the incredible, thrilling goal of completing every square of the map, but that doesn't change the fact that no one outside the community would care about that.
Sarcastic, assumptive, and already dis-proven by some of your own members:
DemonStrate wrote:
I like it! I feel like it is if Any% and 100% had a baby. Since 100% doesn't include map completion, it makes sense to have a speedrun of that goal. I don't feel the goal is any different than goals like 'All Bosses' or 'All Sidequests'. So, I'm putting Yes because I feel the community should not be discouraged to make runs like this. :-)
Ford wrote:
Without reading too much of the previous comments, I can say that I actually enjoyed this movie. I suppose getting 100% map completion versus vanilla 100% is more of a technicality, but I feel my time was pretty well spent on this movie.
And while Samsara was wrong to use an absolute, the fact that the current poll reads 13 14 No, 7 Yes, 3 Meh demonstrates that of the people that have voted, the majority do not find this run entertaining.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
Samsara wrote:
It may not mirror the 100% run, but what does it have over the 100% run aside from a bunch of extra rooms that serve no purpose to a logical route? Oh, sure, there may be new strategies specific to this route, but that's exactly what they are: Strategies specific to a route that only appeals to your community.
See above quotes. I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Those "bunch of extra rooms that serve no purpose" are purposeful in filling out map squares. This is not simply an extension of a 100% item run. The goals between the two categories are completely different, therefore logic and planning were required in routing this run to optimize time.
Except if you spend 6 and a half months on a run that you know you can improve and you know you're going to improve, then you can spend a few more months pushing it to its absolute limit before submitting it to a site that asks for nothing short of perfection.
The run could have just as easily been put on the site's Userfiles or any other storage medium and shared with our community. It didn't have to be submitted. But since it was submitted, it's subject to our high standards of publication. We won't just publish anything that's optimized. Even the most entertaining game in the world would have rejected runs if they're of arbitrary categories: Otherwise, we'd have runs like Donkey Kong Country "collect the letters K and N in 5 stages", or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night "all items except for the Shield Rod and all bosses except for Olrox and Succubus", or Super Metroid "defeat Spore Spawn" cluttering everything up.
Case in point: We're judging the TAS based on the TAS, not on the game. We see the category as arbitrary and not entertaining enough to publish. We generally don't hate the game, so you can all drop the persecution complexes.
I understand this, and don't really disagree with anything stated here. Admittedly, I think some of the "persecution complexes" were based on knee-jerk reactions, likely due to the harsh criticism nymx's submission received right out of the gate. I can understand and appreciate the high standards you guys hold these submissions to, but I also think there are better ways of offering feedback, especially to someone who is still relatively new to TAS-ing. This thought is loosely echoed by one of your own members (on dwangoAC's comment about the TASvideos community not being bad, just "different"):
Samsara also covered this very well; people tend to respond more to criticism and feedback than just feedback, and any insults should be discarded as noise amongst the signal.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
Kurabupengin wrote:
Some people here are though... not all of us, just some from my experience. (and admins know who I'm talking about...)
My dismay wasn't necessarily directed towards the possibility of this submission being rejected. That is, of course, your perogative, and respectfully so. This TAS will continue to exist and likely appear elsewhere, regardless of the outcome here, and is a great contribution. My dismay was primarily directed towards the attitudes of some of the forum members who decided to comment. You may consider it just criticism, and I'm sure that flies perfectly well within your community, but it's not attractive to newcomers. I've seen this time and time again in discussion forums, back when I used to participate in them regularly (on topics completely unrelated). Many members developed cliques, and subsequently complexes that largely alienated newcomers. People that weren't opposed to taking a little bloody lip were fine, but the rest likely never signed into their accounts again. I got tired of the incessant bickering and ego trips and largely disappeared. I'm not saying this is what's happening in this forum, but what I have seen is an eerie reminder of what turned me off of discussion forums in the past.
I'm sure that every forum has its group of people that fall more negative than neutral, and it's obvious that there are negative people here as well. All of that said, nymx's forum account is over six months old - he is not "new" here, and he has two previous submissions. He could have chosen to spend some of those six months (seven months, nearly eight) interacting with this community (of TASers) about his six months-in-the-making TAS, but he decided not to, striking it out on his own and returning with ... well, we all know what happened. As has been stated by others in this thread, there are ways of letting the community know that you are working on something, and asking for feedback and input well before things get out of hand. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but if I was considering submitting something to deertier.com, I would first investigate the community, then look at something that exists there as a goal and decide whether or not I could beat it. I would posit suggestions as to how to improve it, and see if anyone agreed with my assessment of the situation. Then, once I felt like there was justification for attempting to beat a world record, I would start working on it, with an understanding of how the community works. How do I know that I would do these things? Because I am in the process of a TAS myself, and have done all of the previous steps in the relevant forum.
Nintoaster_81 wrote:
Anyways, I also need sleep...
So do I.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
It has been my experience that every single thing published to this site has undergone some level of scrutiny, especially when that thing takes a game that has a speedrun and then attacks it with a new goal in mind, particularly a goal that touches on another goal.
It is not the aim of this site to look at what human players do and then do it faster. It's not, "Oh, that's a nice sand castle you built, I'm going to smash it down and you can watch me build it better."
The site's stated mission statement is:
Mission Statement wrote:
TASvideos.org is committed to providing the best in tool-assisted speedruns and superhuman play. Our runs are held to high standards, and only high quality runs will be published on the site. We also prefer quality over quantity — a poor quality run will not be accepted whether it is a game new to the site or an improvement to a pre-existing run. Our runs may not be perfect (if that is even possible), but are still high quality and aim to be as entertaining as possible.
The submission text says that 90 seconds of improvement are possible. If there are 90 known seconds of improvement, then the site publishing this would be against its stated mission.
The runs published on this site (to my knowledge) are all measurable in some way without overlapping another goal: any% aims to beat the game as quickly as possible, glitched ACE takes over the game, low% aims to beat the game with 14% collected items, 100% items collects all the items, and reverse boss order fights the bosses in reverse order. They are distinctly challenging - any% beats the game, low% has challenges on what to pick up, 100% has to determine the optimal route for pickups, glitched has to quickly and effectively deliver its payload, RBO fights the major bosses backwards. 100% map completion, in my mind, for this site, overlaps with 100% items, because you visit every item's room but ignore many of them in the process of turning the rooms pink.
Something that strikes me as odd about the run itself is that it manages to be slower than the 100% items run, suggesting that waiting through 66% items worth of the item chime delay is actually faster than touching every square of the map.
Penultimately, I would argue that coming here from another site and demanding legitimacy of your category speaks ill of wherever you are coming from and demonstrates little respect for this site. It's possible to come up with a staggeringly large number of arbitrary categories (SM: no speed boots, SM: no arm pumping, SM: only fire on even frames, SM: exclusively bomb jumps, SM: eat mashed potatoes while playing) that don't add anything to the tool-assisted community. I can completely respect human players offering human restrictions to human categories, but the site's goals are not to demonstrate superplay of every possible iteration of goal choice.
Finally, Nymx specifically, I want to call out this particular statement:
I just think that if you are not part of the Super Metroid community, you really don't care to participate in it's creation or support it, in the fact that no human will ever defeat this time.
By asking for your run to be published on this site, you are asking to be part of the tool-assisted speedrunning community here, and you are asking the people who participate in its creation to support your play. Being a part of this community includes reading the site's submission guidelines and considering the feedback of the people who watch your work. What you are doing is essentially asking for legitimacy of your run, but ignoring the spit and polish that is applied to the runs posted on the site.
I figured TASVideos would welcome people more openingly You may not like it, but deertier members do.
As to that particular statement, there is nothing stopping deertier from creating a TAS category, where you can play by their rules.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Now that I have watched the entire movie, I can say the following:
* There is input that has been clearly borrowed from other authors. I don't know if it was with or without permission, but those authors are not credited in the submission text, or as co-authors.
* There were definitely some interesting parts to this, most notably the Crocomire fight, Kraid fight, and Mother Brain fight.
* There was a lot that seemed unpolished: in some rooms, you rush in and turn around after the first step, in others you rush in for several steps, then get the idea to turn around. If you're going for super-human speed, any room you visit without needing to pass through should be of the 'and immediately turn around' variety.
* There are a lot of places where you could use TAS acceleration to generate shinespark speed even for short dashes. Most notably, traversing right through the energy refill room in Norfair, the straightaway after could be shinesparked through.
* The last bit of cleanup was actually a nice surprise, and added a bit of flair.
I would have preferred to see a 100% map run that went out of bounds, to properly demonstrate superplay, and while it would have taken a bit more time, I would have also liked to see the skipped items be revealed (or even collected) to show that you, as a super player, know what you are skipping.
For me, 100% map completion in this game, like any 100% not-tracked-stat for any game, seems incredibly arbitrary as a goal, because the only way to confirm that it's been done is with an overlay of the entire map and every possible room being checked off. It works for the IgaVania games because they print map completion, and confirmation is easy. Similarly, 100% item completion is easy to confirm in this game because it's right there before the end credits.
Did this movie entertain me? Once or twice, briefly. Did I find it entertaining? Overall, no. Some small parts of the movie were interesting, the vast majority (90-95%) was not. Finally, the submission text says that you could save "about 1 minutes[sic] and 30 seconds worth of time" from optimizing your techniques and routing problems. It would probably be a good idea to do that work and then resubmit. There is some good stuff in this movie. There's also a lot that is sloppy.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
From the talking head commentary, timestamp ~16:30 - 16:41,
"... this is an exact replica of what Saturn, cpadolf, NameSpoofer, Taco, Kriole, they do, with slight modifications to make it look a lil' more ... flashy".
Aaand yet none of these names are in the submission text.
"5% of it was taken from an existing strip by cpadolf's 100% item collection."
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I find it interesting that the first 11908 frames of this movie (4.4114160393574773279592199632505% or 03:18.14) are an exact copy of cpadolf's 100% run, from a three frame arm pump to ... well ... everything. Sure, some of it is starting the game and reading through intro text, but everyone puts their own spin on the Ceres section and yet this is identical. Curious.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Next, Hetfield90 improves the X & X2 & X3 run and is the 2015 FractalFusion.
Also, obvious yes vote for some incredible strats.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I've started work on improving Lord Tom's wonderful Faxanadu submission. WIP is at http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/23288780221476689
I've added a bit of polish to what is there, and am now heading to see the King.
Planned improvements:
Acquire the Long Sword
Faster farming to 4500 Golds for Key K
Unexpected improvements:
Made the first enemy face left, getting me killed 19 frames sooner
I would love to optimize the route, but I am pretty sure that Lord Tom's route is optimal, barring finding some wrong warps, or getting nicely embedded into walls.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
From what I gather from the disassembler, byte_DA is the address 0xDA, not the value 0xDA.
I can't think of much in Faxanadu that is actually random: enemy facing (their positions are all set), when certain enemies jump or fly, and when projectiles are spawned. Even the 'random' items are predictable.
And recall that those 256 values are all XOR'd with whatever the player is pressing right now (which will likely never be Start or Select, making bytes 4 and 5 interesting...) so the randomness is based on the gamestate.
Edit:
Minor success! I forced the jumping dwarf to face left instead of right and am dead at frame 2061 instead of 2080!
I do have to figure out which of the eight buttons made that happen, but it's a start.
Edit: It was A.
Edit: Rough WIP: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/23288780221476689 I've smoothed it a bit since, and continued forward. Next stop: Hail to the King, Baby.
Edit: Leaving Eolis: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/23309253951749362Link to video
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Actually, it's a bit closer to:
1) Make the jumpy thing face left on entering the death screen in Eolis. Lord Tom takes his first hit on frame 1900, with it facing right on entering the screen. I can get a small improvement by having it face and jump left, because it will hit me sooner.
2) Die
3) Golds, initial buys, etc.
4) Mattock
5) Wing Boots (2800 Golds)
6) Sky Fountain
7) 2x Wing Boots from bees
8) Joker Key
9) Tower Fountain
10) Death Warp
11) Long Sword
12) Kill two mages to buy Key Q
13) Joker Fountain, Ruby Ring
14) 4500 Golds --without gaining a level-- from slaying at most 6.25 Wyverns
15) Misted Lands Ahoy
16) Picking up the difference in Golds from riflemen and mages.
Also, I came across a disassembly of the game here: http://www.the-interweb.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/30-Faxanadu-Disassembly.html and it suggests that this is the random number generator:
ROM:CA6E GetRandomNumber:
ROM:CA6E LDX byte_DA
ROM:CA70 LDA $8000,X
ROM:CA73 EOR PressedKey_1 ; Key pressed by the player
ROM:CA73 ; Bit 0: Right
ROM:CA73 ; Bit 1: Left
ROM:CA73 ; Bit 2: Down
ROM:CA73 ; Bit 3: Up
ROM:CA73 ; Bit 4: Start
ROM:CA73 ; Bit 5: Select
ROM:CA73 ; Bit 6: B
ROM:CA73 ; Bit 7: A
ROM:CA75 INC byte_DA
ROM:CA77 RTS
ROM:CA77 ; End of function GetRandomNumber
I /believe/ that it means:
X <- 0xDA
0xDA's value + value in 0x8000 = memory address's value to load into accumulator
Acc XOR PressedKey_1
Inc byte_DA
but I am no expert in assembler.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
The Wyvern I was referring to was the one behind the Key JO door, after acquiring the Long Sword, in order to buy three Key K, not either of the earlier ones, since the first one takes too much time and the second one happens before the death warp.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
It eats too much Golds, I would have to stop in Apolune to buy two keys, at raised prices.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I think I am going to put my non-existent TASing abilities to the test, to get an improvement on this wonderful video.
I've made a couple of notes where improvement might be possible:
- Instead of killing the mage immediately outside of Forepaw, it might be faster to kill the mage a screen away on the top path. Unless, of course, the screen transition is slower, in which case time would probably be lost.
- Seeing if it is faster to approach the Key JO dungeon from the right by flying up on the previous screen. It's quite possible that jumping from the Great Spring is the fastest way up.
- Acquiring the Long Sword, as stated in the previous posts.
- Seeing how quickly the gargoyle/dragon thing can be beaten with the Long Sword, to acquire 4500 Golds for the three Key Ks, to see if that saves time over killing things along the way.
- Determining whether it is faster to kill the rifleman outside of the three buildings in Mist for money by entering/exiting than killing things along the way.
- Finding the right mix of the above two points to reach 4500 Golds without things becoming too repetitive or boring.
Path-wise, I feel that Lord Tom's route is as optimal as it's going to get without some crazy warping glitch being discovered.
I have been considering the time tradeoff of dying in Eolis versus not having magic until the Forepaw death warp, but my gut feeling is that so much time is spent fighting to get 2800 Golds that not having magic would make each fight take longer than the ~400 frames of death message and the 450 frames of getting hit and dying.
Actually, thinking about it while I type this, I realize that the main time loss on the no MP route is the spike thing that is in the Mattock room. Because the dagger doesn't hit low, I'd have to miss the platform twice, and that would be a major time loss.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Right, so the time tradeoff between getting the Longsword on the first visit to town versus the second is:
time (killing 16 wizards with the Dagger + 32 entering/leaving town transitions)
versus
time (killing 3 bees + 8 dungeon screen transitions + selling Wing Boots + killing 2 wizards with the Longsword + 4 entering/leaving town transitions)
I am fairly certain that the dungeon route is faster, as the bee room is done really quickly, and killing wizards with the Longsword is faster than with the Dagger. (Deluge remains a constant, of course.)
The other question, and I think the answer is, "Obviously yes," is: 'Does taking this time to get the weapon get made back by having it?'
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Even if that is the case (that it only increments in freebie rooms), you're adding 4 (0) rooms by getting a second pair of Boots, and then you still have to acquire the Ointment on leaving town.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Except that everything in the game (in my experience) is on a four room counter. So, getting the Wing Boots above Key JO and then getting a second pair (4 8 more rooms) doesn't affect the counter.
And, actually, having to kill two more wizards (four screen transitions) is also four more rooms. And and, if it was fewer rooms, that would mean not having to spend as many room transitions getting the Ointment on the way to the Dragon, Ring, and Misty world.
Edit: 4 visits to the Wing Boots rooms != 4 more rooms, it is 8 more rooms. Oops.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
The farming done before the town acquires 2800 Golds, to buy the Wing Boots. Acquiring another 1600 Golds by killing the lone Mage is 14 kills (115 Golds apiece), which is 28 screen transitions. I don't think that would be gained back by having the Longsword during the dungeon.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I wonder how viable it is to set up the party such that it is Thief, Thief, White Mage, White Mage, with names as follows:
Thief 1: Payload 2 part 1
Thief 2: Payload 1 part 1
WHM 1: Payload 2 part 2
WHM 2: Payload 1 part 2
The thing I need to figure out is this:
Because WHM1's name is only three letters (4ca090), there's something that needs to go in the fourth letter slot. If that thing falls within the (J) character table, then it might be viable to make the party noted above and swap the two Thieves and the two White Mages after payload 1, leave the Castle and return, meaning no save.
So far, my efforts have been: "try a space. Payload one. Swap the characters. Do another set of 35 up/down stairs. Game freezes on entering the menu."
Depending on what that area of memory does with regard to character names, it might save time, it might still require a save (but less overall name entering time), and if it works, it might be the fastest the game can get down to.
Entering the character change menu (pressing select) overwrites 30x and 31x, so you can't run the planned payload anymore. Damn. (312 to 315 are now 98 78 98 78 and 310 is 00. So much for that.)
Edit: However, I don't even know if character swapping puts the names into the right place, so there's also that.
Edit: According to the hex editor, the "null character" value is FF, is the space in the lower-right. So, my thought about using space is "correct".
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
How feasible is it, during Rangda Bangda, to manipulate the left eye opening first, wall-climb the left wall, and take out both eyes with one Hadouken using the ice platform glitch? Is that even possible?
Edit: Also, very easy 'yes' vote, on Storm Eagle and Sigma 1 alone. Very nice improvement on everything that has come before.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Dammit, Scrimpeh, I was going to say the same thing about the cross usage. :)
That was a really enjoyable watch.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
PikachuMan, while you're checking the thread, in the "hard" mode version of 1-6, it might be possible to bounce off of Lakitu and over the level separator border to save a bunch of time, if you don't have to do anything in the lower part of the world to get the star coin.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
While many comments were about how little activity there was during the autoscrolling levels, a larger portion of the comments were about how movements seemed unoptimized and how PikachuMan seems to take damage for no reason along the run.
I will certainly agree with you, Bobo, that a lot of people (myself included) do want to see something entertaining during the autoscrolling levels, but it doesn't have to be flashy hyperactive motion. Something as simple as hopping to the music or being pushed along the screen, playing only when necessary, would entertain me.
I look forward to seeing a Moons-worthy run of this hack, because I quite enjoy it. I hope that PikachuMan is the person to do it, too.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
I agree with the sentiment shared by many of the people who have commented before me: standing around during the autoscrollers looks boring.
I also found the few instances of 'have powerup', 'get hit and lose powerup', 'take old powerup again' to be confusing. Confusing in the sense that I was asking myself the question, "did that actually save any time?" There's one instance that springs to mind involving the kicking of a Bob-Omb to break down a wall that demonstrates this confusion nicely.
I cannot attest to how well optimized this is, as that is outside of my current skillset. I did see tricks demonstrated that looked impressive, and places where PikachuMan attacked the level in a way it wasn't intended to be. I am, however, also unfamiliar with this hack (beyond what I watched earlier in the day.)
I have voted 'yes' because the question reads, "Did you find this movie entertaining?" and I did, in fact, find myself entertained by it. It's fair to wonder how much of that entertainment came from the player and how much came from the quality of the hack, and I am not certain myself.
I did find myself wondering why levels were skipped during the playthrough of what was titled a 100% run. Yes, it became apparent that post-game continuation was involved but watching through the first time, the video did not match the title.
In short, I voted 'yes' on this movie because I liked what I saw. However, to be fair, I am not sure if I preferred what the player was doing to what the ROM hacker presented. I guess I should have voted 'meh'.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
