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Okay yes I don't have any good arguments pro "either score or time must be better and none is allowed to be worse. It feels like a workaround and it's not clear what problem it actually fixes.
With infinite score environments, just like we ban certain techniques from 100%, we can ban certain techniques for max score. For example any technique that would allow scoring more points until the counter saturates or overflows can be disallowed. For some games that would lead to no way of having a max score run, and I guess that's acceptable.
New draft (the clause about ending-less games is identical to what we already have for all cases, so I dropped it):
Max score
The goal of obtaining maximum possible score for a Vault movie is allowed under the following conditions only:
There is no way to define full completion for that game, because there is no way to collect or complete "all X" for any given criterion, aside from fastest completion.
If a way to define full completion is discovered later on, a movie that does it obsoletes the "max score" run that is in Vault.
Techniques that allow overflowing or saturating the score count (infinite scoring environments) should not be used.
Like with full completion, score must be gained by the in-game means and not by memory manipulation glitches.
The problem that still remains for me is that game completion may require techniques allowing infinite scoring, or at least some variation of those.
If a certain in-game action allows you to complete the game, but also can be used to score infinitely, of course we can just ban such games from vaultable max score.
But what if an in-game action is required for completion, but only a slight variation of it scores infinitely? Like, imagine you score infinitely if you go left, and you only score 100 if you go right, and either option wins the game. Calling the latter "max score" feels really dumb. But what's dumber is how tiny the difference between allowed and banned in-game actions can be.
Add to the equation discovering only after publication that some of those actions can score infinitely:
<Masterjun> in other words, we cannot ban games based on dynamic things such as the techniques
<Masterjun> (because we inevitably run into a situation where we have to ban a game after a publication)
This fundamental ambiguity doesn't seem to be eligible for vault at all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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It shouldn't reach that old screen later than the old movie, we'd just demand additional content on top of that former kill screen.
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I'll need to read the manual, and look for other P2 input checks in the code.
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Proposed addition to http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#Vault_2Max score
The goal of obtaining maximum possible score for a Vault movie is allowed under the following conditions only:
There is no way to define full completion for that game, because there is no way to collect or complete "all X" for any given criterion, aside from fastest completion.
Overflowing or saturating the score does not count as reaching "max score", because it leads to delaying game completion for no good gameplay reason and damages the competitive nature of score maximization.
For games that have no clear ending, the movie end requirements remain the same as for fastest completion.
Like with full completion, score must be gained by the in-game means and not by memory manipulation glitches.
A "max score" movie reaching higher score than its predecessor can only obsolete it if it loses no time over it.
A "max score" movie of the same length as its predecessor should reach higher score to obsolete it.
I think this solves the problem with "infinite score" runs trying to obsolete "max score" runs after new tricks get discovered: you have to be slower in corresponding parts of the movie to get potentially infinite score, and we'd disallow it to be slower, even if it allows to get more score.
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[13:31:12] <feos> https://i.imgur.com/kzQVHPF.gif looks like a debug feature
[13:31:24] <feos> meant to be used to test screen scrolling
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Yeah but what does this check actually trigger? I doubt they explicitly make you screen-wrap, there should be some missing check somewhere.
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I think we should not let the score overflow or stop at digital cap like 999999. The point of the competition with "max score" is that you never know how much you end up getting in the end, exactly like it works with movie length (it always approaches zero). Aside from that, the ending point remains the same as usual, with just another objective added on top - highest possible score.
Aside from that, should we allow sacrificing time to gain more score? I think if we allow that, one may delay game completion indefinitely, and we don't want that. The clearest solution would be disallowing longer movies to obsolete shorter ones: if score remains the same, we want shorter time; and if time remains the same, we want higher score.
And yes, score should only increment legitimately,without memory corruption techniques, as already said in the rules.
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I don't think screen-wrapping is an intended thing. But the setup for it could be intentional, which can only be found out by reading the game code.
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I'd prefer an SMS game, also I'd prefer not Sonic.
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Better graphics, better music, better gameplay, more (or less) glitches, etc. If they are identical, we don't care which one you pick.
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Only things that require no homebrew tools (software or hardware) are allowed: what you officially buy is all you have, in this case the C64 with original (and emulated) peripherals and the game.
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The one that's better?
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There is 2 main reasons to use the arcade mode over pce mode in this movie, first the difficulty, most boss have less hp in pce mode and you can get hit (6 times per life), then secondly the "true" ending only appear after beating arcade mode.
As a result, I think both modes have value, but I can't say we should force Arcade mode even for future submissions of this game, as gameplay advantages don't look convincing to me. You get a better ending, but you don't get a lot of variety in gameplay.
As for comparing optimization, there are always similar areas that can be compared directly, and slightly different areas that can be checked on their own, nothing terrible.
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Arc wrote:
feos wrote:
7. Read.
I read it; in fact that "judgment" is the reason I posted. It was ridiculous. We're talking about Super Metroid—arguably the single most iconic game in the world of speedrunning. The new movie was a 'notable improvement' over the previous movie. The previous movie was Starred and had a 9.3 rating. The new movie was also compared to the so-called 'problematic' any% movie, which is Starred and recommended for newcomers with a 9.2 rating. There was, in reality, no doubt about approximately what rating the new movie would get, and it currently stands at 9.4. There never was any issue to discuss; the new movie is one of the most Star-worthy movies on the entire site. It has been held hostage in the Moons tier for the last 3 weeks and no one called it out. The current system of establishing Stars is flawed, and so I proposed an alternative way to establish Stars.
You probably missed this thread and got so confused as a result. People there suggested that the new 100% run does have issues to discuss. And since entertainment is a subjective thing, accounting for people's subjective impression is an important part of the job when you want to promote the most entertaining movies to users. If one can't afford accounting for user feedback, one doesn't get to tell people what to do or what to watch.
You also seem to consider your suggestions absolutely perfect, judging by all the arrogance surrounding them. If they actually had all the merits implied, they'd be convincing to the majority of people, and the high-horse attitude wouldn't be required.
Arc wrote:
Coca-Cola Kid is one of the worst Stars. It's a fine movie but there's no way that it has the special qualities that distinguish a Star from the other 95% of movies on the site.
2 users out of 16 gave it really low rating around 3. 3 users rated between 6 and 6.5. 11 users rated it between 7 and 8.6. It means most people consider this run pretty decent, mostly good looking. It's also one of the best GG runs, and it was the best one before GG Mega Man was published. It stands a bit worse compared to the best SMS movies. In pace it's comparable to SMS Lord of the Sword, but overall it's less complex I would say. Other good SMS movies are more complex, but slower paced.
I'm not particularly amazed by Coca-Cola Kid, and if people want its star to be moved we can do it. But I disagree that it should be just dropped.
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adelikat's intent years ago was that tasvideos wiki should contain all the needed info, but that still doesn't solve the problem of off-line docs. And HelpNDoc can't output wiki code AFAIK.
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Memory wrote:
We could absolutely potentially replace the existing ALTTP star with the suggested movie if people desire it
I don't understand Zelda at all, but the new run is, well, new, and it's rating is way higher. Does it actually look better than the 10-year-old old movie?
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Arc wrote:
The credibility of the Stars tier has reached a new low.
Suggested remedy:
1. Remove all current Star designations.
2. Establish a Council of Starmen (minimum 3 members).
3. Have the Council decide an initial 100 movies to promote to Stars.
4. Promote those 100 movies to Stars.
5. Dissolve the Council.
6. All subsequent promotions to Stars are nominated and decided as part of the Awards every January.
That would surely be helpful, though not as helpful as
7. Read.
feos wrote:
Even though this movie looks stylistically identical to the NMG branch that is starred and has great ratings, I'd like to see this run's ratings. After all, this movie inherits all the problematic aspects of [3653] SNES Super Metroid by Sniq in 35:58.31. Then there's arguably less difference between this and the current NMG than there was between the previous 100% and previous NMGs. As a result, I'd prefer having a Star related discussion separated, and well after this run gets published and gains enough post-publication feedback.
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Okay I can say that for games that have no way to define full completion at all, and were more or less designed for score instead, it might be a lesser evil to allow "max score" for Vault as a replacement for full completion. I'll see where this gets us.
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We don't want to support non-arcades because they are quite poorly emulated to be frank. It's either emulated worse than our currently supported emulators do it, or worse than emulators we currently don't support do it. But I don't think any system the MESS part supports is actually good and up to our standards on accuracy.
Another vid meanwhile:
Link to video
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moozooh wrote:
So far you've called the goal of highest score "arbitrary"
Let's see...
feos wrote:
With Moons policies, almost any arbitrary goal can be accepted as long as it's entertaining to the general audience. You make it sound like entertainment isn't a factor for us, and boring arbitrary goals either go to Vault or get rejected.
I didn't call the high score goal arbitrary, I was clearly talking about various possible goals that are eligible for Moons and not for Vault, as per Wiki: MovieRules.
moozooh wrote:
"fundamentally ambiguous"
feos wrote:
Shoving things through the back door means that when we abstract away and try to objectively assess pros and contras, we find out it's not such a great idea to have fundamentally ambiguous goals in Vault, especially when there's already a good place for them, where they have value and are easily accessed.
Indeed, here's I'm referring to the high score goal as fundamentally ambiguous. It's ambiguous because there's no explicit programmatic limit on score in such runs: you can't collect it all, you can only collect some maximum of it, this amount is determined by all sorts of factors, and you have various levels of control over them. There might be a glitch forcing you to die in a certain level, but later on another glitch can be found that would allow you to skip that level or get past the problematic point otherwise. There could be some soft limit that can be bypassed by clever gameplay actions. This goal is competitive exactly because there are often ways to collect higher score. It's fundamentally ambiguous because you can't know in advance what your actual max score is in the end after all the effort. In the same manner as the final movie time is fundamentally ambiguous, unpredictable, improvable, etc.
Strictly speaking, not the goal itself is fundamentally ambiguous in this case, but the main metric behind it. And since Vault is limited to just two metrics - movie time and clearly defined full completion - the goal of high score can indirectly be called ambiguous relating to Vault, where you guys want this goal to be added.
moozooh wrote:
"hard to measure"
feos wrote:
For goals where no limit can be found whatsoever, you constantly balance between unpredictable time and unpredictable score, compromising one or another, or both at once, which makes it a hell to compare and obsolete with improvements, because it's so hard to actually measure improvement.
Since the metric is ambiguous and the final score count is unpredictable (hence the competition aiming to maximize it indefinitely), it makes the primary goal of Vault, record speed, less clear.
By the current Vault rules, you just optimize everything out and try to get the lowest final time possible, optionally fulfilling the full completion requirements. The speed record is legitimate, obvious, easy to understand and to rely on.
Adding an unpredictable metric to it means there will always be a conflict: one can waste time to gain higher score, waste score to save time, get higher score without losing time, and save time without losing score. One also has to be optimal in gaining both score and time, but with 2 unpredictable functions that you now have to definitively control, it becomes really hard to optimize such a movie and to verify improvements. Not impossible of course, but this removes the clarity of goals that Vault is founded on.
moozooh wrote:
these descriptions are borderline FUD based on no actual cases where it was hard to determine whether something was an improvement (or even a good score, period)—you just came up with some vague imaginary scenarios that haven't been problematic since the very beginning of organized score tracking.
You could've just asked what I meant instead of imagining those overdramatized pictures.
moozooh wrote:
And all the while multiple national and international organizations and sites have tracked records based on this very metric for longer than you and I have been alive. Surely they have figured it out—why can't we? As I repeat again, it's just a simple counter that can safely be taken at face value (barring the problem with running out of displayed digits, which is adequately solved by memory watch as in this case—a tool we have that unassisted scorekeepers don't!). You don't have to be a PhD to tell that 100 points is more than 99. I honestly don't understand why this seems so difficult; it's really anything but.
Those communities work with human records, so it's a competition of human skills, and as such it can be so popular and have all the crowd around it. We remove the human element from TASes, so the task of maximizing the score is not so deeply impressive when tools assist you. Of course it can still be highly impressive. And guess what, we solve this already by putting such movies to Moons based on viewer support.
moozooh wrote:
feos wrote:
Are we past 2012 yet?
Well, are we? The reason this discussion happens at all is that the run has to either comply with an (arbitrarily chosen) entertainment barrier to make it to the Moons or be rejected as ineligible for the Vault as per its goal choice.
When dealing with a community of people with various tastes, you have to account for their subjective feelings when making decisions that directly affect what they get to see published. Categories currently allowed for Vault are extremely good at being clear, because over the years I can't remember a single person saying we shouldn't allow any% or 100% for Vault. With categories that some people asked to add to Vault, it always boils down to this: people say some game genre or goal should be included into Vault, but the majority of the requesters completely refuse to enjoy the result of TASing that game or goal. Just like you admit that this movie's content is unlikely to get to Moons, almost no one was honestly entertained by the Math Blaster movie that featured an educational game. Since people in that thread couldn't find vastly convincing reasons to allow such a game for Vault, and then there was a disagreement among judges about rules interpretations, we had a staff discussion that involved clarifying what the site wants, what the community wants, what makes the most sense, and how to clearly express that in the rules. I sparked this discussion and I was leading it, and I can tell you that the way you're describing our policies and how they are designed is infinitely far from reality.
moozooh wrote:
In other words, you're trying to determine whether to filter out a technically well-made run by its goal choice—based on a very representative selection of a dozen forum members. You can theorize upon whether the audience is entertained all day, but the truth of the matter is that TASVideos forums have absolutely laughable user presence for anything unpopular, and even then the response has been mixed rather than strictly negative.
Mixed response means that if we agree with, let's kindly say, half of the crowd and accept a borderline movie, people posting in the thread will completely forget about it, and after publication people who care about ratings will come and fail to get entertained. It happens all the time and it means we can't just rely on half the posters saying "this is not so bad actually". Posters is only one of the factors to account for. Actual movie contents is another one, and judges are supposed to understand what kind of movies we have in Moons based on gameplay and contents. Feedback of those who rate movies after publication is a very important factor as well, and we're also supposed to understand how people are likely to rate; we also encourage raters when we determine whether a movie deserves a star, in addition to other stars related aspects.
moozooh wrote:
None of the members of the Bongo community Lizstar is from commented here (or at least they didn't identify themselves). But if you look at YouTube, you'll see (as of right now) the temp encode has 425 views. Unless there is some gross cheating involved (which I severely doubt), some four hundred people have at least partially watched this run, of which less than 3% bothered to vote in this thread. There are more likes there than there are votes here.
This suggests to me that a non-negligible audience exists for this run. But let's be frank here, the chances of it making it to the Moons by entertainment is incredibly slim. So yeah, it's 2019, we have a submission requested by several hundred people on a more visible/accessible platform, and you're about to reject it based on a technicality that artificially reduces the scope of the site.
Should I go to youtube and find out how many people watch and like videos with Game Genie or manual RAM poking? By your logic this alone is supposed to force us to deny the rules of our community and accept blatant cheating for publication.
moozooh wrote:
And before that, you suggested that having a run with repetitive content in it hurts the site somehow, which also reeks of the 2012 rhetoric.
Quote?
moozooh wrote:
What is the actual problem with having highest score as a Vault-able category? What makes it an unreliable or otherwise unwanted metric?
I elaborated on my point 5 above where I explained why I called this goal ambiguous and hard to measure improvements for.
My point 1 escaped your attention completely (even after I mentioned it explicitly again), but it's one of the main problems the current movie rules have with your suggestion.
Here's our general approach to branching:
Movie Rules on goals wrote:
Arbitrary goal choices need to offer new TAS material to be accepted. Choices which have no goal other than to create a new game branch are rejected.
Keep the number of different branches per game minimal. A run for a proposed new branch for a game should offer compelling differences relative to previously published runs of that game.
Sometimes what is claimed to be an improvement may necessitate a new branch, such as when a huge time-saving glitch is involved (see SMW2), or unusual goal choice is exhibited (as in Princess-only SMB2 run, whose first iteration beat then-current any%).
To determine whether there is new TAS material or compelling differences compared to vaultable goals for this game, I watched this submission side by side with the RTA any% run.
The game is overall not as basic as directly running right all the time. You have an option to ignore items and just have any%, only utilizing the items that can save you time. You also have an option to collect all items, and then it could be considered full completion. In an earlier post I said that max score can't be considered full completion in itself if there's higher score that you can potentially get. But if we define full completion as "all items", that seems to fit just fine. There's a question about loops and in-game conditions preventing full item collection in later loops, but as I said, maybe later loops aren't required.
This movie does collect all items in earlier loops. So if we decide that 1 loop is enough, then a vaultable full completion movie of this game has already been made and only has to be trimmed, checked for optimality, and has a solid chance to be published.
Fastest completion goal is still available for this game and it will also be published if someone makes it, once we determine how loops affect gameplay contents and difficulty.
If you compare this submission to those 2 perfectly vaultable goals, it doesn't feature any unique content or compelling gameplay differences. And this is even more so for games that are simpler than this one. Any% and 100% is exhaustive for most boring games that Vault exists for.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Memory wrote:
Why do we care about what is the most popular speedrunning categories? I'd argue the only reason we care about speedrun records more than other records is simply that we started out with speedruns and it's what is most popular currently. However, I don't see that as a particularly valid reason to favor them in our rules. Given that it's been 2 years since the last publication that didn't aim for speed as one of its primary goals, even for Moons, I'd argue that something has gone wrong here. Communities that don't aim for speed clearly exist and even thrive, but we don't see any of them here.
Until 2012, speedrun records that didn't look impressive to the general audience were rejected. The site cared the most about publishing the most entertaining movies. It didn't have to force speedrunning competitions, they felt natural to TASing and gained their popularity naturally too, as long as the result was decently entertaining. In addition to that, some movies that weren't speed oriented were encouraged, made, and published, because of the same reason: aiming to publish the most impressive content.
When Vault was added, its goal was keeping speedrun records that would've been (and have been) rejected until then. It was an inclusive approach, a lot of old submissions were unrejected, a lot of them got published. And Vault has never been a target for the site: it's name, it's icon, it's appearance (not being included into primary movie lists) was considered by some people a discouragement! It just naturally happened that some people preferred to focus on Vault when TASing.
Since arbitrary movie goals were meant to go to Moons, the idea of Vault was limiting arbitrariness as hard as possible. It makes perfect sense to me: if a movie looks impressive to the general audience, it can have a vast variety of self-invented goals. Previously such movies were also rejected, because some goals were considered too arbitrary, and the judge guideline was limiting the branch count as hard as possible, in order to raise the entry barrier and only feature the best movies.
When Moons became a tier, demand for entertaining arbitrary goals was satisfied, just like demand for boring speedrun records was. Both were previously outright rejected, now most of them have a solid chance. It's no one's fault if a movie fails to entertain enough people, but then it means watching it is a fairly niche joy, depending on personal tastes of really small groups of people. We don't blame people enjoying them, but it was a common decision between admins, other staff members, and the community, to limit Vault to the most clear speedrun goals, and to leave Moons for all the rest. Every movie has a chance, but we can't really publish everything. We're limited by the general site vision, by demand, and by manpower. We can't ignore one when we feel like changing or following others, it has to be a general consensus. Maybe there will be, but as of right now, I'm having problems with high score categories in Vault, and I'll discuss them in my next post.
And I feel that most of this talk should be moved here.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
