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Following discussion surrounding this submission, and the current rules on Game Boy modes brought up within, and some IRC discussion related to these, I figured it's time to update the rules on Game Boy modes. These rules are basically an old relic from back when VBA-rr was the only available option, and the situation regarding Game Boy emulation and especially Super Game Boy emulation has changed a lot since then. The old rule wasn't really enforced anyway, and several publications have broken it in recent times.
Here's my take on how the Game Boy mode rules should be, based on what has been going on:
• If neither Super Game Boy enhancements nor Game Boy Color's full-color graphics are supported, Game Boy mode should be used.
• If Game Boy Color's full-color graphics are not supported, but Super Game Boy enhancements are available in the game (i.e. borders, dynamic palette changes, and/or other exclusive features within the game), then either Game Boy mode or Super Game Boy mode can be used. Both are accepted, but movies of the same game and category can obsolete one another based on whichever has the shortest in-game run time based on frame count.
• If the game has full-color graphics for Game Boy Color, Game Boy Color mode should be used. If the Super Game Boy mode also unlocks notable exclusive gameplay features, then SGB mode may also be accepted for a movie that makes use of said exclusive features.
• If running a Game Boy Color game in a Game Boy Advance mode enables extra features, that can also be used. Like Super Game Boy for Game Boy games, either method is accepted, but movies of the same game and category can obsolete one another based on whichever has the shortest in-game run time based on frame count.
Alongside that, SGB Mode in VBA-rr is to be banned entirely, as it is purely an emulation hack and does not properly emulate a game inside an SGB at all. (Other Game Boy modes in VBA-rr also are set to be deprecated and eventually no longer accepted, but that's a separate discussion).
If anyone has other ideas, I am open to ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
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Mothrayas wrote:
• If neither Super Game Boy enhancements nor Game Boy Color's full-color graphics are supported, Game Boy mode should be used.
Agreed.
Mothrayas wrote:
• If Game Boy Color's full-color graphics are not supported, but Super Game Boy enhancements are available in the game (i.e. borders, dynamic palette changes, and/or other exclusive features within the game), then either Game Boy mode or Super Game Boy mode can be used. Both are accepted, but movies of the same game and category can obsolete one another based on whichever has the shortest total run time.
I dislike how the end is phrased. Actual game play time needs to be shorter to obsolete, not just total run time which discards timing differences.
Also uniqueness is each can turn what was thought of as the same category into two categories.
Mothrayas wrote:
• If the game has full-color graphics for Game Boy Color, Game Boy Color mode should be used.
Almost agree.
Some SGB+CGB games can have unique features in one that are missing in the other. Both should be acceptable.
Mothrayas wrote:
Alongside that, SGB Mode in VBA-rr is to be banned entirely, as it is purely an emulation hack and does not properly emulate a game inside an SGB at all. (Other Game Boy modes in VBA-rr also are set to be deprecated and eventually no longer accepted, but that's a separate discussion).
If we have alternatives that are deemed viable enough for regular users to get SGB mode with the borders, colors, sounds, SNES add-ons, multitap, and the other SGB extras, I'm fine with this.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Nach wrote:
I dislike how the end is phrased. Actual game play time needs to be shorter to obsolete, not just total run time which discards timing differences.
Fair point, I'll update the wording accordingly.
Nach wrote:
Also uniqueness is each can turn what was thought of as the same category into two categories.
This is covered with the statement that only the same categories of a game/run can compare in regards to obsoletion. If SGB enables different objectives or goals, that makes going for those a new category.
Nach wrote:
Almost agree.
Some SGB+CGB games can have unique features in one that are missing in the other. Both should be acceptable.
Fair. Can you give any instances of this scenario in particular?
Nach wrote:
If we have alternatives that are deemed viable enough for regular users to get SGB mode with the borders, colors, sounds, SNES add-ons, multitap, and the other SGB extras, I'm fine with this.
Newer versions of lsnes and BizHawk feature SGB emulation with at least the most common features emulated to my knowledge. I don't know about their status on all the side features, though. But at least, it actually emulates the SGB BIOS and hardware - a vast improvement over VBA-rr's SGB mode, which is purely an emulation hack and nothing at all like how actual SGB hardware behaves.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I'm guessing sound difference isnt considered either. some GB games have the ability to use the SNES soundchip.
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Mothrayas wrote:
Fair. Can you give any instances of this scenario in particular?
Some of the Hudson Soft games has better colors in CGB mode but have multiplayer support in SGB mode.
Link's Awakening DX IIRC has some SGB support, but in CGB mode you get all colors and access to an extra level.
There can be others.
Also some CGB games have extra features in AGB mode. IIRC, the later CGB Zelda games have extra stuff too.
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EZGames69 wrote:
I'm guessing sound difference isnt considered either. some GB games have the ability to use the SNES soundchip.
This is covered with the mentions of SGB enhancements/exclusive features. SNES sound chip use is considered an SGB enhancement like borders, palettes, etc.
Nach wrote:
Also some CGB games have extra features in AGB mode. IIRC, the later CGB Zelda games have extra stuff too.
Good point, I'll add a bullet point for that too. (Shantae is the only other example I can think of offhand, but it's notable nonetheless).
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Mothrayas wrote:
Good point, I'll add a bullet point for that too. (Shantae is the only example I can think of offhand, but it's notable nonetheless).
I just said Zelda. Oracle of Ages and Seasons specifically. There may be others too. And hobbyist developers may continue to make more.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
• If the game has full-color graphics for Game Boy Color, Game Boy Color mode should be used. If the Super Game Boy mode also unlocks notable exclusive gameplay features, then SGB mode may also be accepted for a movie that makes use of said exclusive features.
Does it mean using SGB mode for a GBC game is not allowed/recommended when the SGB mode does not provide extra features?
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Fortranm wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
• If the game has full-color graphics for Game Boy Color, Game Boy Color mode should be used. If the Super Game Boy mode also unlocks notable exclusive gameplay features, then SGB mode may also be accepted for a movie that makes use of said exclusive features.
Does it mean using SGB mode for a GBC game is not allowed/recommended when the SGB mode does not provide extra features?
Yes. If there is no reason to use SGB for a GBC game, don't use SGB.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I anticipate what the answer will be, but what about RNG differences? Timer-based RNGs can and will be different across the three (or four?) platforms and there may be states that are only accessible on certain platforms.
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Bobo the King wrote:
I anticipate what the answer will be, but what about RNG differences? Timer-based RNGs can and will be different across the three (or four?) platforms and there may be states that are only accessible on certain platforms.
I see no sufficient reason to deviate from the rules I outlined in this case.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
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<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Mothrayas wrote:
Bobo the King wrote:
I anticipate what the answer will be, but what about RNG differences? Timer-based RNGs can and will be different across the three (or four?) platforms and there may be states that are only accessible on certain platforms.
I see no sufficient reason to deviate from the rules I outlined in this case.
I concur.
Unless one of those states happens to be access to a whole game area not otherwise accessible.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I anticipate what the answer will be, but what about RNG differences? Timer-based RNGs can and will be different across the three (or four?) platforms and there may be states that are only accessible on certain platforms.
I see no sufficient reason to deviate from the rules I outlined in this case.
I concur.
Unless one of those states happens to be access to a whole game area not otherwise accessible.
I bring it up because Final Fantasy Legend has a spell (I think it's FLARE or P-BLAST?) that is utterly impossible to obtain using the Game Boy's RNG. I've never tried getting it using GBC or SGB, but it is, technically, an element of the game that is locked out by the RNG.
If anyone would like, I can run a few traces and show how the RNG table is compiled and compare them across the three platforms.
I bring it up because Final Fantasy Legend has a spell (I think it's FLARE or P-BLAST?) that is utterly impossible to obtain using the Game Boy's RNG. I've never tried getting it using GBC or SGB, but it is, technically, an element of the game that is locked out by the RNG.
If anyone would like, I can run a few traces and show how the RNG table is compiled and compare them across the three platforms.
I bring it up because Final Fantasy Legend has a spell (I think it's FLARE or P-BLAST?) that is utterly impossible to obtain using the Game Boy's RNG. I've never tried getting it using GBC or SGB, but it is, technically, an element of the game that is locked out by the RNG.
If anyone would like, I can run a few traces and show how the RNG table is compiled and compare them across the three platforms.
Please do!
I would find this fascinating.
Damn it! I was just losing interest, too! All right, I'll begin running some traces and writing stuff up...
Game Boy doesn't have an RNG, everything is software, and it would be odd for something to only appear on SGB or GBC.
I'm looking through my old notes, taking screenshots, and trying to disentangle the results of some trace logs. It's all very time consuming and I'd like to put up a very thorough document, as per Alyosha's request, but I think it's most important that I write down a quick summary while I know I still have the attention I need to devote to this:
The spell in question in Final Fantasy Legend is a version of GAZE that carries the stone effect. This is extremely important because there are some enemies and bosses (SEI-RYU in particular) that are immune to instant-death but not immune to stone. Having the GAZE spell means we can insta-kill him and other enemies, saving a lot of time. The reason I'm mentioning all this is to emphasize that this is not some abstract hypothetical: I intend to show that using SGB or GBC could potentially allow us access to an important spell that would save a good number of seconds in the run.
The RNG table is universal and begins at address CB00 and ends at CBFF (256 values). These values are fixed. I had a trace log at some point that pinpointed exactly how it was written-- I probably should reproduce that investigation. For the sake of the rest of this post, I'll assume that there is absolutely nothing we can do to manipulate the values in the table (I'm fairly certain that's the case).
There is a list of RNG pointers beginning at address C300 and ending at C37F. These pointers reference indices in the RNG table, generating random numbers for various purposes in the game. There are (no more than) 128 randomized functions, including potion effectiveness, random encounters, NPC movement frequency, NPC movement direction, etc. Basically, everything that's randomized in the game corresponds to a pointer somewhere in the C300-C37F range. Whenever a random number is needed, the value at CBxx is looked up where xx is the value of the corresponding pointer, then the pointer is incremented, modulo 256. This means if I roll a random number 256 times, the values will begin to repeat.
These pointers are all initialized upon startup or soft reset. I'll get into the actual mechanics of that later, but for now, I'll point out that the pointers start off "close" to each other and "creep upwards". For example, C300 might have the value 2A and all pointers up to C306 might also be 2A. The value might then increase such that pointers C307 through C30C are 2B and C30D is 2C. This "creeping" is extremely consistent and we have a nice mathematical formula to describe it. Effectively, the only thing that varies upon a soft reset is the exact starting point. Later on, I'll explain how this creeping arises and how it's potentially affected by the GBC or SGB modes. Much of this write-up assumes we're working with the vanilla GB platform, which we did throughout most or all of our investigations of the game.
The pointer that decides what mutant bonus is obtained is at C30B and the pointer that decides what spell the mutant learns (among other things) is at C34B. Based on the formula I just mentioned and the fact that these pointers are exactly 64 spaces away in memory, we've shown that C30B and C34B are "locked" to one another such that C34B will always be nine greater than C30B. Back in the day, FatRatKnight confirmed this experimentally. Crucially, this means that we can't manipulate mutant bonus type and learned spell independent of one another and we are limited to 256 initial states.
None of these 256 initial states correspond to learning GAZE (stone) at any time. We can't learn it initially and when we learn other abilities, we get locked into other periodic RNG patterns that consistently miss the magic values we need to learn the GAZE spell. I believe FatRatKnight investigated this long ago, but I've tried to confirm it by simulating RNG pointer patterns in Excel. Unfortunately, I'm getting some results that are inconsistent with what I'm seeing in the game, so my spreadsheet needs some refinement. I'm writing this up now in case I lose motivation and am unable to properly simulate RNG rolls.
Now's where it gets interesting. We know that the values of the pointers "creep upwards", but I haven't yet said why they do. Perhaps they are set in such a way that we actually can manipulate them such that C30B and C34B are not locked at values 9 apart from one another, giving us another degree of freedom with which to manipulate luck. To investigate this, we need to run a trace and determine how the RNG pointers are initialized. As it turns out, the code is pretty dang simple: upon startup, the value of address FF04 is loaded into C300, and then a loop counter increments and loads FF04 into C301. This continues 80 times total until the RNG pointers up to C37F are all set.
Now we need to know what FF04 is and why it increments. After reading a few articles online, I've learned that FF04 is the "divider register". It's basically a timer that runs independently of the rest of the game and increases at a fixed rate. Based on the short and consistent length of the loop that initializes the RNG pointers FF04 will always increment at such a rate that when C34B is initialized, FF04 will always be 9 greater than its value when it was used to initialize C30B.
BUT! The rate of this timer is dependent on the platform! Take a look at this page. With the SGB, the divider runs about 2.4 percent faster and it can even be run at double speed under the GBC. Dwedit, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this effectively acts as a "hardware RNG", although due to a tragic coincidence, it produces some not very random values when used to initialize the software RNG.
And to close out this post, I'll say that most of this is untested on my part. I know, I know, I should just sit down and force the SGB or GBC core, but I've done enough research for one night. Also, I just rebooted the game in the SGB core and I can't even find the damn RNG pointers in RAM watch. It's possible (or even likely) that although FF04 runs fast on the SGB, so too does the CPU by the exact same amount. Only differences in the relative clock speeds-- not absolute differences-- should free up the possibility to manipulate C30B and C34B independently of one another.
Whew! Good night, everyone!
Edit: TL;DR: Using SGB or GBC cores affects the clock rate of the divider (byte FF04), which is used to set the RNG in Final Fantasy Legend. This potentially opens up states that are inaccessible under the regular Game Boy.
Now we need to know what FF04 is and why it increments. After reading a few articles online, I've learned that FF04 is the "divider register". It's basically a timer that runs independently of the rest of the game and increases at a fixed rate. Based on the short and consistent length of the loop that initializes the RNG pointers FF04 will always increment at such a rate that when C34B is initialized, FF04 will always be 9 greater than its value when it was used to initialize C30B.
BUT! The rate of this timer is dependent on the platform! Take a look at this page. With the SGB, the divider runs about 2.4 percent faster and it can even be run at double speed under the GBC. Dwedit, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this effectively acts as a "hardware RNG", although due to a tragic coincidence, it produces some not very random values when used to initialize the software RNG.
And to close out this post, I'll say that most of this is untested on my part. I know, I know, I should just sit down and force the SGB or GBC core, but I've done enough research for one night. Also, I just rebooted the game in the SGB core and I can't even find the damn RNG pointers in RAM watch. It's possible (or even likely) that although FF04 runs fast on the SGB, so too does the CPU by the exact same amount. Only differences in the relative clock speeds-- not absolute differences-- should free up the possibility to manipulate C30B and C34B independently of one another.
The divider only cares about clock cycles, and it's 256 clock cycles to change the value of the divider. The timing differences between SGB and GB won't change this, and it only runs faster in GBC mode if the game has intentionally turned on double speed mode.
However, the SGB does have a different bootrom that takes far fewer frames to finish. There are 70224 clock cycles in a frame, which does not divide evenly by 256, and by taking fewer frames to finish, the divider will be in a different position.
Does anyone know if the GBC's boot logo takes a different amount of time vs the GB's boot logo? That also throws off the divider.
Now we need to know what FF04 is and why it increments. After reading a few articles online, I've learned that FF04 is the "divider register". It's basically a timer that runs independently of the rest of the game and increases at a fixed rate. Based on the short and consistent length of the loop that initializes the RNG pointers FF04 will always increment at such a rate that when C34B is initialized, FF04 will always be 9 greater than its value when it was used to initialize C30B.
BUT! The rate of this timer is dependent on the platform! Take a look at this page. With the SGB, the divider runs about 2.4 percent faster and it can even be run at double speed under the GBC. Dwedit, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this effectively acts as a "hardware RNG", although due to a tragic coincidence, it produces some not very random values when used to initialize the software RNG.
And to close out this post, I'll say that most of this is untested on my part. I know, I know, I should just sit down and force the SGB or GBC core, but I've done enough research for one night. Also, I just rebooted the game in the SGB core and I can't even find the damn RNG pointers in RAM watch. It's possible (or even likely) that although FF04 runs fast on the SGB, so too does the CPU by the exact same amount. Only differences in the relative clock speeds-- not absolute differences-- should free up the possibility to manipulate C30B and C34B independently of one another.
The divider only cares about clock cycles, and it's 256 clock cycles to change the value of the divider. The timing differences between SGB and GB won't change this, and it only runs faster in GBC mode if the game has intentionally turned on double speed mode.
However, the SGB does have a different bootrom that takes far fewer frames to finish. There are 70224 clock cycles in a frame, which does not divide evenly by 256, and by taking fewer frames to finish, the divider will be in a different position.
Does anyone know if the GBC's boot logo takes a different amount of time vs the GB's boot logo? That also throws off the divider.
If I understand your post, this would only change the initial state of the divider, not the fact that it increments every 256 CPU cycles. As a result, a different initial RNG would be available to us from a hard boot, but since luck manipulation is achieved through soft resets (which don't zero out FF04), we're stuck with the same problems we have with the regular Game Boy.
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The Game Boy rules have now been updated to those in the first post of this topic.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Fro reference, the difference if the oracle games are in GBA mode is that you have access to the advance shop. this has 3 items for sale for 100 rupees each.
1. A unique ring (one for seasons and 1 for ages). Cosmetic only, but requird for 100%
2. a random tier 3 ring. saves time verses growing one, but current routes don't need any of the tier 3 rings (ages uses the experts ring, which is tier 4 and the red ring, which is obtained by glitching, and i don't belive seasons uses any rings)
3. A gasha seed. The current route of ages uses two of these, and this seed is one of the two fstest to get by several seconds campaired to the back up, so GBA mode is fastest for ages right now. IIRC, seasons does does not use a gasha seed, so gba mode has no effect on the current route, but i could be wrong.
According to what I've found, only SGB2 features a special sound chip, and there are currently no emulators able to emulate such feature.
That's not correct. Any SGB game can use the SNES sound features, and at least a handful of them do (although often to little meaningful effect).
Mothrayas wrote:
Alongside that, SGB Mode in VBA-rr is to be banned entirely, as it is purely an emulation hack and does not properly emulate a game inside an SGB at all. (Other Game Boy modes in VBA-rr also are set to be deprecated and eventually no longer accepted, but that's a separate discussion).
VBA-rr doesn't support some SGB features, like SNES audio and the "Space Invaders" capability, so shouldn't be used for TASing those games. It also has weaknesses in its GB core, so shouldn't be used for TASing any game that gets into trouble that way. Other than these very specific cases, what problems are there with VBA-rr SGB emulation? Your post seems to imply it's a broad issue.
One more detail to add. I remember, rather distinctly, on the actual GBC hardware, if I mess around with the D-pad during the logo startup, changing the color scheme, the delay this causes also gave a different starting RNG. The color scheme change is a legitimate feature of the GBC pertaining to older GB games that don't use more advanced functions, and may potentially be an RNG manipulation tool, as in the case of Final Fantasy Legend.
In any case, if there's no way for the divider to "wander" relative to CPU instructions, even by changing platforms, we won't get access to other offsets in our important RNG addresses. Our soft resets in our earlier TASing attempts are basically just giving a different "start up timing" to get access to RNG values we want, and we've studied soft resets a lot. If the only thing another platform gives is a different start up timing, it's not giving us access to new RNG values we can't already get by soft reset.
If it did get us new RNGs, then we'd have a case where there was no intended feature exclusive to one platform, but by some "accident" of RNG, some random elements, particularly strong ones (we're talking usable instant-death against bosses), are flat-out unavailable on one platform but are accessible in another. But based on what I'm reading, and off of my own memories, Final Fantasy Legend isn't going to crack open our stone gaze any time soon, whatever hardware we use.
Still, we have an RNG manipulation case based on changing platforms. After all, a different start-up timing could seed the RNG differently. Is this case to be disregarded as not important enough to allow a submitted run on an undesired platform if the reason provided is RNG?
As for the proposed rule set, my short-hand interpretation of the proposal:
* GB game - GB mode only
* SGB game - GB or SGB
* GBC game - GBC mode only
With exceptions based on features provided by the individual game, should a run use such features.
Mostly, just trying to clarify things. Is my interpretation fine?
