Topic by NxCy

Posted: 6/17/2011 2:55 PM

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NxCy

Active player (497)

Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 128

At least 4 levels in world 2 have some pretty big time savers not present in our old WIP now, thanks to wall jumping and some new tricks/ideas. The new WIP's still at 1-6, but I'll start working on it again in a few weeks. Hopefully most of the stuff that's already optimal can be hexed.

Posted: 6/17/2011 3:06 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

Well, seems like redoing from 1-6 was a good idea after all. However, it does worry me somewhat that after two years of work you're still near the beginning. I really hope we will all enjoy this TAS before the wheelchairs claim us. :)

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Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 8/19/2011 12:35 AM

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Baxter

Skilled player (1402)

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821

Opinions needed again. After finishing a world (with 100% completion), all level tiles are 'flipped', and you get the PERFECT message for 100% item collection. Then Yoshi proceeds by walking around the island and blowing up a castle. You can then select the next level. Movie. After finishing a world, it is also possible to reset the game, select the game file in the main menu, and select the next level. Movie. The version that resets the game is about 21 seconds faster. (Takes like 11 seconds compared to 32 seconds.) In our old WIP, we hadn't considered this, and didn't use the reset, but as we are redoing, it is an option to do this and 'save' 21 seconds on the old wip. Gameplay-wise there is also something different, as resetting the game will not allow Yoshi to take eggs to the next level, and both in 2-1 and 3-1 (possibly also other levels we haven't TASed yet) this means some time (although not nearly 21 seconds) will be lost by having to collect extra eggs in 2-1 and 3-1 (eggs that cost more time to obtain there than if they were obtained in 1-8 and 2-8). Since we are redoing we have the option to include these resets after a world is completed. The question is, should we include these resets?

http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html

Posted: 8/19/2011 12:39 AM

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scrimpeh

Editor, Skilled player (1405)

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2086

Personally I'd be for using Resets, since it really only skips boring slow menu tomfoolery and no actual gameplay. Also, I think that collecting the eggs new should be more interesting than just carrying over the stock from the last bunch. If nothing else, it could mean the opposite - you need to collect less eggs beforehand because they won't be carried over anyway. Just my two cents, I'm really excited to hear this is still active.

Posted: 8/19/2011 7:09 AM

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braindx

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 42

Will resetting mean you have to go back and try to hex in what you have already done for worlds 2 and 3? or do you have to redo everything? Or does it fit in easily?

Posted: 8/19/2011 9:20 AM
(Edited: 8/19/2011 5:30 PM)

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partyboy1a

Player (136)

Joined: 9/18/2007
Posts: 389

I would do neither... I would say you should reset at frame 1615 in the noreset file (right after those two bonus levels appear). You save some time, and still see the "perfect" text. I think that's a good speed / entertainment tradeoff. Or don't reset, as this movie will be more than two hours I guess. Those 140 seconds saved make the movie somewhat incomplete. I'm also against using warp glitches in the 100% run. It would be absolutely boring to see 1-1 completed over and over again. -------------- Using those resets for the any% warpless run would be a good idea.

Posted: 8/19/2011 11:32 AM

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MUGG

Editor, Expert player (2315)

Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3856
Location: Germany

Yes, use resets please. I would be even more in favor of it if there's a button combination allowing you to reset the game (like in Kirby Super Star it's L+R+S+s). Also, I told nxcy already but I wouldn't mind using glitch warps to save time.

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Posted: 8/19/2011 7:25 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

My opinion is yes to resets, no to warp glitching in the 100%.

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Posted: 8/19/2011 8:30 PM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

I'll vote yes on resets. It doesn't seem like it's something that's in any way distracting and it saves time to boot.

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Posted: 8/19/2011 11:18 PM

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XkyRauh

He/Him

Joined: 6/9/2005
Posts: 171
Location: Southern California

Comicalflop wrote:

My opinion is yes to resets, no to warp glitching in the 100%.

Another vote along these lines! :)

Posted: 8/20/2011 3:57 AM

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braindx

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 42

Comicalflop wrote:

My opinion is yes to resets, no to warp glitching in the 100%.

+2 to this

Posted: 8/20/2011 5:28 AM

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OmegaWatcher

Joined: 5/2/2009
Posts: 656

braindx wrote:

Comicalflop wrote:
My opinion is yes to resets, no to warp glitching in the 100%.
+2 to this

count me there. ...just for curiosity, is it possible to break 100 points in a stage using the warp glitch?

My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =) (ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ

Posted: 8/20/2011 5:43 AM

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dunnius

Active player (423)

Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 329

I would vote yes to resets, but I agree with partyboy1a that it should be done after the "Perfect" message. That way only the cutscene is skipped. I also vote no to 1-1 warp glitch. It is boring. OmegaWatcher: Apparently not. I asked Tri-hex about that when he was streaming. The game has caps to prevent going over the max for each.

Posted: 8/20/2011 11:13 AM

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BigBoct

He/Him

Editor, Former player

Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH

I'll agree with dunniuis and partyboy1a; use the resets, but wait until after the Perfect message. As far as warp-glitching...I'm not sure how I feel about that. I remember Carl Sagan pointing out that you can only do it in four levels (don't remember which ones) which wouldn't be overkill, but at the same time, I'd rather see the levels completed legit instead of seeing 1-1 an extra four times.

Previous Name: boct1584

Posted: 8/20/2011 11:23 AM

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MUGG

Editor, Expert player (2315)

Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3856
Location: Germany

I wouldn't wait for the perfect message, seems arbitrary to me. Save time wherever you can.

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Posted: 8/20/2011 3:07 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

boct1584 wrote:

As far as warp-glitching...I'm not sure how I feel about that. I remember Carl Sagan pointing out that you can only do it in four levels (don't remember which ones) which wouldn't be overkill, but at the same time, I'd rather see the levels completed legit instead of seeing 1-1 an extra four times.

I thought there were 4 "natural" warp glitches (for instance, 2-1, and one of the castle levels where a gooey thing pushes you up as you enter a horizontal pipe), but that it can be done in other places as well by doing up+down when entering a pipe.

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Posted: 8/20/2011 4:26 PM

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NxCy

Active player (497)

Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 128

We already decided near when we started the run not to warp to different levels. The 1-1 warps we know about are in 1-1, 2-1, 2-4, 2-5, 3-1 and 4-7. Doing it in 1-1 is obviously pointless and the 2-5 one is too close to the end of the level to be worth using. 2-1 and 2-4 in particular have some really cool tricks, so it'd be a shame to skip them. :P Also, resets seem like a good option. Since we'll start the X-1 levels with no eggs, a little bit of time will be lost in 2-1 and 3-1, but it's very small compared to the time saved. Resetting after the 'perfect' message would be pretty arbitrary, and the whole score summary at the end of the world is a big part of what the resets skip.

Posted: 8/20/2011 6:25 PM

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Paused

Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 748

Bah, for what it is worth, I would have thought seeing the same reset sequence every 8 levels would hurt the runs momentum a lot more than a slightly longer congrats cutscene. Watching a little Yoshi progress along a map to make a castle explode keeps you 'in' the video a lot more than seeing the Nintendo logo pop up, for the inevitable start up sequence. The Sonic Advance 3 run for example I found very jarring to watch in places. (though the resets were for a different reason in that game I know.) Regardless its a very minor point. I can not imagine anyone really caring too much either way.

Posted: 8/21/2011 3:06 PM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

I think this is a tough one. I'm more of a fan of in-game fastest time i.e. I prefer to see the substance of the levels completed as fast as possible. However, if only the first level of each world will suffer as a result of resets then the time it saves will justify using it. Hopefully, not having the extra eggs won't damage the momentum too much. Anyway, good to see that this is still being worked at after all this time. I look forward to more progress.

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 8/21/2011 4:28 PM

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Baxter

Skilled player (1402)

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821

We just finished redoing 1-6, 1-7 and 1-8, and reached the the first reset. Even though desyncs are frequent when editing parts of our old wip onto our new wip, it has been very useful and made our life quite a bit easier. When editing something (with TAS Movie Editor) after we made the reset though, the reset disappears from the movie... There are some good arguments for using resets, and some against. We were leaning towards using resets, but if this means we cannot use the TAS Editor anymore, it will make the rest of the TAS a lot more bothersome... Unless someone convinces us with objections or provides a solution to the problem, we will probably not be using resets in the TAS after all.

http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html

Posted: 8/21/2011 5:35 PM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

Baxter wrote:

There are some good arguments for using resets, and some against. We were leaning towards using resets, but if this means we cannot use the TAS Editor anymore, it will make the rest of the TAS a lot more bothersome...

Is it possible for you to use TAS Editor as you normally would and then use a regular Hex Editor to put the reset back in? Or is that too cumbersome?

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Posted: 8/21/2011 7:57 PM

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partyboy1a

Player (136)

Joined: 9/18/2007
Posts: 389

I find hex editing with external programs to be more difficult than using Lua scripts for that, because then you can instantly check if it syncs, or even apply some fixes "on the fly"...

Posted: 8/21/2011 9:37 PM

Post subject: 2-4 WIP

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Baxter

Skilled player (1402)

Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821

Using a hex editor to edit the resets back in after using the TAS movie editor provides a solution, so this run will have resets. We'll look into partboy1a's lua script to see which is more convenient. Now that we completed the first world again, it's time to release a WIP! We will release a wip up to 2-4 for now of our old movie before the walljumps were known. 2-1 through 2-4 will be the levels we will be working on again, and we have some very nice improvements planned for them! These won't just be walljump-improvements. For now, enjoy this new (old) WIP! http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1277338226/yi100%25-nxcy%2CbaxterWIP2-4%20complete.smv 2-1 Spezzafer used a 1-1 warp in this level, and we decided not to use them in our TAS to avoid seeing 1-1 over and over, and display the full game. The big frame loss in this stage is solely because the 1-1 warp was not used. Not using this warp enables us to show off some very nice aspects of 2-1 that reduce the frame loss vs the warped version significantly. These aspects include the baby room, and using the dog. Shooting an egg to the right of him works like throwing a ball with a real dog. It makes him turn around faster and he runs faster than yoshi does. Time saved in 2-1: -2694 frames Total time saved: 13 frames 2-2 Lots of optimizations and better strategies, which all add up. Time saved in 2-2: 338 frames Total time saved: 351 frames 2-3 Same as 2-2. This level has a nice and lively first room, and some sweet egg shots later on. Time saved in 2-3: 141 frames Total time saved: 492 frames 2-4 Shooting the ladder before when entering the door may seem like an improvement as Yoshi is walking into the door instantly, but it is merely visually entertaining. The first Flipper is skipped with the use of the enemy, for which a short wait was required. This avoids having to go through the stair formation cutscene and enables Yoshi to take a route in the ‘wrong’ direction. Time saved in 2-4: 319 frames Total time saved: 811 frames

http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html

Posted: 8/21/2011 10:21 PM

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Mukki

Skilled player (1090)

Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom

Excellent WIP! The use of baby mario in 2-1 was particularly interesting. Stylistically I found this to be the strongest segment of the run so far (which is really saying something, you guys have gone the extra distance), with 2-2 as a prime example (the egg play was glorious and the ending was cool). Keep up the awesome work!

http://tasvideos.org/Mukki.html

Posted: 8/21/2011 10:39 PM

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ElectroSpecter

Player (244)

Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA

Yeah, 2-1 was great. Navigation of the falling stone blocks towards the end was also very impressive, as was the 2-4 skip. Keep up the good work, guys!

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