This is a second attempt at a run (#5343: DrD2k9's NES Circus Caper "Left Wall Exit Glitch" in 07:06.06) that was rejected for optimization reasons. Thanks to feos for the pointers. Updates to the comments below are in italics.

Circus Caper

The NES platformer with a rather creepy premise.
You play as Tim, the brother of a girl who went into a circus and was kidnapped. Not only kidnapped at the circus...kidnapped BY the circus. (See, I told you it was a creepy premise.)
Anyway, your task is to run around the circus chasing after the people you think have your sister and beat them up until they relinquish her. Unfortunately, with each victory you learn that she has just been transferred to a different circus member thus extending the search.
You have various items at your disposal if you collect them from defeated enemies.
  • Weapons - One HP of damage per hit against bosses (equal to your fist).
    • Hammer - Throw horizontally across the screen.
    • Yo-Yo - Swing in circles around yourself as a weapon and pseudo-shield.
    • Soccer Ball - Rolls across the screen.
    • Bomb - Destroys all enemies on-screen. Ineffective against bosses.
  • Tools
    • Brick - Can be placed in the air for a makeshift platform.
Once you beat Mr. Magic, the ringleader of this caper, you find your sister and learn that they were using her as target practice for the knife-throwers! (And the creepy factor increases a bit more.)

TAS Notes

  • There is a major glitch in this game that is exploited in this run.
    • While you are normally supposed to run to the right of most stages and jump to the exit at the top of the screen, it is possible to simply jump out the upper left of most levels as well. When you do this, the level ends as it would if you left the right side of the level.
    • This glitch is used in RTA runs.
  • Boss battles are physical battles with one exception as explained below.
    • With all physical boss fights, the bosses cannot move or attack during their invulnerable period following a hit.
  • While the run-time of this video is close to the fastest RTA run on Speedrun.com, this apparent approximation is deceptive for the following reasons:
    • This run starts timing from Power On while the other starts at the beginning of the first stage.
    • The final input of this run is at the end of the story following the death of the final boss (a few inputs after the boss are necessary to bring the game to the "The End" screen). The other run stops timing upon death of the final boss.
  • Where items are needed, luck is manipulated to get the desired item in as few frames as possible.
  • Damage is taken to save time.
    • Most notably during the finial battle when a minor glitch/programming oversight is used speed up the fight. After taking damage, there is a 1-frame window in which you can jump out of mid air. This allows for double or even multiple aerial jumps if you're willing to take the damage.
  • At the end of boss battles where a key drops from the top of the screen, the character is positioned in the highest location directly under the key to minimize time of the key falling. (Any higher position results in a soft-lock.)

Stage Notes

Stage 1 (after a bunch of story dialogue) - The first part of this stage is skipped with the wall glitch after obtaining a brick. The second part is run. There are a couple narrow passages in this section where the character requires multiple jumps to ascend the obstacle and move forward.
  • Boss - Clown Bag - Physical fight
Stage 2 - Left wall glitch is used to immediately skip to the boss.
  • Boss - Tightrope Dancer - Physical fight.
Stage 3 - Left wall glitch is used to immediately skip to the boss.
  • Boss - White Tiger - Teriyaki Battle (Timed challenge)
    • In this challenge, either a piece of meat or an empty bone shows up on the table. If you grab the meat, you get a point. If you grab the bone, you lose a point. In this run, the meat is grabbed so fast the Tiger just stares in awe of your cat-like reflexes. He attempts to beat you a couple times, but only accomplishes grabbing the bone.
    • This is a 1-Minute timed event and the higher score wins the battle.
Stage 4 - The left wall glitch is used after obtaining a brick.
  • Boss - Lion Tamer - Physical Battle
Stage 5 - Left wall glitch is used to immediately skip to the boss.
  • Boss - Bear on the Ball - Physical fight.
Stage 6 - The left wall glitch is used to skip the first part of this stage. The second part is a maze of doors which leads to the final string of boss fights. Just prior to these is an unavoidable 'mini-game' to replenish health before the boss marathon.
  • Mini-Game - Kangaroo Fight (1-Minute Timed Challenge)
    • You must punch to catch the falling balls. Catch more than the kangaroo does in the allotted time and you win back health. As it is impossible to catch them all, I only caught what was necessary to win. (A tie counts as not winning.)
    • It was pointed out by Spikestuff that watching the character just stop trying in the first run was disappointing, so I played along the entire round this time.
    • The Kangaroo needs to drink less coffee.
  • Boss Marathon
    • Clown Bag - Hammers are used to kill the Clown faster than I can reach him to use fists.
    • Tightrope Dancer, Lion Tamer, Bear on the Ball - All of these are 2-hit kills. The hammer is used to get the first hit as soon as possible. While punching for the second hit takes a couple more frames than trowing a second hammer, only 5 hammers can be held. Thus throwing a second on the first couple rematches would result in longer times to the 1st hits on the latter boss rematches. Also, in my attempts, the time required to obtain a soccer ball for a second weapon would be longer than the time saved by having two weapons in the boss marathon.
    • Mr. Magic - Basic physical fight.
    • The aerial jump glitch mentioned above can be seen here.
As previously stated, a few inputs after the final boss fight are necessary to reach the "The End" screen.
This submission saves 131 frames over the original.

feos: Delayed, while the author is checking out suggested improvements.
feos: It turns out implementing the 1-frame improvements on each jump messes up the spawns completely, so the first room lasts longer than in this submission, so it can be left to whoever will want to debug the RNG and remanipulate everything, for a new submission. Accepting this one to Vault for now.
Spikestuff: Published.

TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #5356: DrD2k9's NES Circus Caper in 07:03.89
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The branch is not needed as I explained in the previous thread.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
DrD2k9
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Ok, removed the branch.
Stovent
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Hi, I've made an HD encode of this movie, can you tell me if it is good enough to be published ? here is the link : https://archive.org/download/CircusCaperAnyResubmissionDrD2k9/Circus%20Caper%20-%20Any%20%25%20-%20Resubmission%20-%20DrD2k9.rar
[17:37:00]<TheCoreyBurton> It's N64 - it's ALWAYS bad news.
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Stovent wrote:
Hi, I've made an HD encode of this movie, can you tell me if it is good enough to be published ? here is the link : https://archive.org/download/CircusCaperAnyResubmissionDrD2k9/Circus%20Caper%20-%20Any%20%25%20-%20Resubmission%20-%20DrD2k9.rar
Hi. Thanks for helping, but your encode has some problems. The subtitles should start when the actual gameplay starts (and make sure they don't cover anything important). The logo should get approved by the staff before it can be used for official encodes. Your logo doesn't have any errors as far as I can see, but its style is very weird and inconsistent: detailed objects, upscaled pixelated objects, detailed font, pixelated font, font sizes, intalics... that's just a mess. And break the first line in 2. See how our publishers put together their logos: http://tasvideos.org/SiteHistory/EncoderLogos.html Also, don't use Archive.org for uploads of runs that haven't been accepted yet.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Stovent
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My logo has been accepted by fsvgm777. Do I have do make another one since this one seem weird ? I've found a good time and a good stop for the subtitles : it's at 51s on the bottom of the screen, will it be good ?
[17:37:00]<TheCoreyBurton> It's N64 - it's ALWAYS bad news.
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Gameplay starts at 38s. Put the subs on the right side below the HUD. And since opinions halved on your logo, ask other staff members as well (on IRC).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Invariel
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Stovent, I am moving these posts into their own thread in Encoder's Corner because they do not belong here.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Stovent
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I've deleted my last post, since the encodes wasn't correct. Here is the link to the correct encodes : https://mega.nz/#!cYF2CCbC!E0o841_VEL-CdgCNobiO6c7zKxX0kv8-QVNoelkr624
[17:37:00]<TheCoreyBurton> It's N64 - it's ALWAYS bad news.
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Every time you jump from the floor, you lose one frame. Don't do that. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/36588513630103101
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Thoughts on Sub-Optimal play.
DrD2k9
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feos wrote:
Every time you jump from the floor, you lose one frame. Don't do that. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/36588513630103101
Duly noted and appreciated. I'm not trying to be difficult with the following, just throwing out some thoughts I feel should be considered when judging games. Yes. Your tweak improved the character position by 2 pixels. I'll admit that your partial work is more optimal in the immediate sense, but I think it's unfair (and a bit of a speculation) to extrapolate out this minor positional/frame difference as a claim that my submitted complete run is less optimal than a complete run using this improvement would be. It very well may be an accurate assumption, but at this point we don't know that as fact. Isn't it possible that taking one portion of game slightly slower can result in a faster overall run? Until a complete run using this improvement is submitted, my submission is the most optimal complete run known. If it's valid to suggest that a run is sub-optimal based on one or two frames this early in the run, I feel that it's just as valid to suggest that even this minor improvement in the immediate sense could potentially have RNG effects that would lengthen the resulting complete video by those same couple frames. I'll gladly tweak this game again, but in the meantime shouldn't my submitted run stand as the current best, given that there is not yet proof that this improvement demonstrated in a partial run will result in an overall improvement? Forgive me if I sound like I'm complaining, I don't mean to. I just feel that a judgement of sub-optimal play should be based on full run times not on partials. One of the rules of the site is that runs must be complete to be submitted. I always assumed that there were two reasons for this: 1) Because people are unlikely to want to watch partial games. 2) Because doing one part of a game faster than someone else doesn't mean you can do the whole game faster. I realize that you're just trying to keep the best-of-the-best on the website, and rightly so. But isn't that what obsoleting previously published runs is all about? A complete run that is the best known gets published then when someone betters it with a new faster complete run it obsoletes the first. Again, I'm not trying to be difficult, but it does make me wonder how many games or runs have been rejected in the past due to "sub-optimal" play when there's no complete comparison to claim the submitted run as sub-optimal. I understand that we don't want sloppy play on the site, but there's a HUGE difference between sloppy and sub-optimal play. Thanks for reading this far, if you have. I'll step off my soapbox now.
Invariel
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DrD2k9, you raise a significant number of good points in your post. You are entirely correct in suggesting that changing the gameplay in these localized places may result in more difficult challenges later that wipe out the pixels saved by jumping less, and you do make a very valid point that complete runs should be judged, not small portions of that gameplay. However, in attempting to prove that your run is optimal (which is a criterion for your run being accepted), you, as the player, should go back to those criticized portions of the game, implement the suggestions, and see if that does, in fact, save time later. Yes, it is a hassle, but if such an obvious potential improvement is ignored in the process of judging this movie, and then someone comes along and implements those few pixels of optimization, that speaks poorly of the judge, and of the person who submitted the original run.
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
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There's also a rule that a run must beat or at least match the existing records. And there are also cases when one finds an improvement while being already far into the run. It depends on how easy it is to incorporate that improvement and not lose in total time comparison. I haven't counted how many occasions of a floor jump are there in this run, that can be converted into flying and save those 1-frames. But, even though I haven't noticed that back when I was judging your first run, you could catch it while you were improving over my time (which I love that you did), because it's a basic optimization technique, utilized in quite a few runs on the site. Probably it will break the RNG patterns you've got. But probably it will improve them. We can't know until one tries. But to reject a run, a judge doesn't have to redo the whole run and make a new submission on their own, it's just required to act consistent with Wiki: MovieRules and Wiki: JudgeGuidelines:
The movie's technical quality must be acceptable wrote:
Don't be lazy. We will try and beat your movie. We should hopefully not succeed. See the Wiki: Guidelines on how to make a movie that meets the site's standards.
We can publish runs with known improvements (which might end up not succeeding), but only if those can't be incorporated without huge effort and/or they are really minor. Many submissions contain the Possible Improvements section, and it is okay to leave them up to whoever makes a new iteration of the run. But they should not be due to sloppy play.
DrD2k9 wrote:
I understand that we don't want sloppy play on the site, but there's a HUGE difference between sloppy and sub-optimal play.
Unfortunately, losing a frame every time you jump for no real reason is sub-optimal and it's also sloppy play. What we do in situations like this, when it's not know if a suggested improvement will actually pay off in the end, is setting runs to Delayed, until the author(s) figure(s) this out. Usually it's enough to post a few movies where saving those frames in different places indeed results in broken RNG patterns. If it appears to lose the competition per judge's examination, your movie will be accepted. But before it's known for sure, I beat you in a short segment with no effort, which means your run is not beating all the records. PS: Several site members including me really like your attitude in that you use to dig to the core of the situation, keep that up! You have the bronze medal there btw! We don't give prizes for that, but you beat quite some guys there!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
DrD2k9
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feos wrote:
PS: Several site members including me really like your attitude in that you use to dig to the core of the situation, keep that up! You have the bronze medal there btw! We don't give prizes for that, but you beat quite some guys there!
I'm thankful that my thoughts aren't falling on deaf ears. Often I'm just trying to better understand for myself what even I'm attempting to do. But if my curiosities and comments are broadening the discussions regarding the more philosophical side of this hobby, then I'm very honored and humbled to have sparked those discussions. Prizes aren't as important as understanding. As wonderful as they may be, prizes don't help me TAS better in the future; understanding does.
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So should I set this to delayed?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
DrD2k9
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I think "delayed" would be the better choice until I can get the run tweaked again. Maybe "delayed pending anticipated improvements" or something along those lines. My only reasoning goes back to the "what if" situation that the resulting tweaked run isn't faster overall. Then again, if you reject this one by mentioning the anticipated improvements and then it turns out being the better run, I suppose it could be un-rejected with an accompanying note that the anticipated improvements didn't pan out. So either way could work. I suppose the choice of semantics is yours. It might be a bit before I can update it though. On a different (but related) note: if either this or a tweaked run gets published, should we include you as a contributing author for pointing out these improvements?
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If you start posting WIPs of each level you finish, maybe I'll join the project if I can still beat your time. If you finish it on your own without any improvements I can find, it's your own. Delayed is exactly what you suggest to call it, so yeah.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
DrD2k9
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Can't check it right now, did it work or not? If it did, is it also going to work for the entire game?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [3328] NES Circus Caper by DrD2k9 in 07:03.89