Topic by Rick

Posted: 2/21/2005 4:16 PM

Post subject: Wolfenstein 3D!

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Rick

Former player

Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine

Now, I know that this was the original FPS, and granted, there's a lot less to the game than most, but what about some speed runs for this oldie, yet goodie? If anyone actually decides to do this, I'll re-download FloEdit and provide full maps to plan out routes with this for any episode that you want. I'm never steady enough with my fingers or mouse to actually do a good run. And another personal preference, I'd like to see how fast people can go with getting 100% of kills, treasure, and secrets, or as many secrets as can possibly be done (As there's a level in Episode 2, for example, that has about 100 push walls, and I doubt you could push all of them, that'd be a ridiculous waste of time anyway having to push a ridiculous amount of slow-moving walls.) I don't think there's many glitches to abuse in this game, so that might make for some interesting runs.

http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.

Posted: 2/21/2005 6:35 PM

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Xerophyte

Joined: 5/17/2004
Posts: 106
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

1) Wolf3D, though old, is definitely not the original FPS. ID's own [URL=http://www.idsoftware.com/games/vintage/catacomb/]Catacomb 3D[/URL] and [URL=http://www.idsoftware.com/games/vintage/hovertank/]Hovertank 3D[/URL] predate it and before them we've got things like Lucasfilm's [URL=http://www.ataritimes.com/8-bit/reviews/eidolon.html]The Eidolon[/URL] and the original Battlezone in the 80's. They're all pretty recent titles if you compare to the first real FPS; [URL=http://www.digibarn.com/history/04-VCF7-MazeWar/index.html]Maze War[/URL], which first ran on NASA computers in '73. 2) I vaguely remember seeing speedruns of wolf3d before, though a quick search failed to uncover any. It'd certainly be interesting, anyhow, the game's a definite classic.

Posted: 2/21/2005 7:23 PM

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BillBull

Former player

Joined: 5/22/2004
Posts: 462

You could do the SNES version, or even DOOM for the SNES. With rerecording and all that jazz, It'd look pretty cool.

Posted: 2/21/2005 9:13 PM

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Rick

Former player

Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine

That's true with the runs for SNES. You could do both actually, since the SNES and PC versions are different enough from each other.

http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.

Posted: 2/21/2005 9:21 PM

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Deviance

Former player

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706

yeah, the snes version with censored nazi symbols, german guards that speak english, and "mutant rats" instead of attack dogs. :P

Posted: 2/21/2005 10:17 PM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

Yes, there is no way in hell I would want to see the SNES one. The PC one, and Spear of Destiny, would rock. I recall Wolf3D mentioning somewhere in the credits that John Romero did a speedrun of the first episode...forget what the time was. Oh yeah, that level in Episode 2...isn't that the one with the "Aardwolf" secret or whatever it was? Also, I think if you pushed the wrong walls you got rewarded with a face full of Hans Grosse...fun. "GUTENTAG!" Hehe, still love that line after all these years. =) -Josh

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 2/21/2005 10:43 PM

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Dada

Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands

I consider Catacomb 3d to be the "original" real-action FPS, but that's only because I've not played many others from that era. :p It would really be interesting to see this, though!

Posted: 2/21/2005 11:48 PM

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Rick

Former player

Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine

Josh the FunkDOC wrote:

Oh yeah, that level in Episode 2...isn't that the one with the "Aardwolf" secret or whatever it was? Also, I think if you pushed the wrong walls you got rewarded with a face full of Hans Grosse...fun. -Josh

I believe that was the level I was referring to. There's literally over 100 pushwalls in that level, so getting all the secrets is a no-no. As for Catacombs 3D, I never even knew that game existed. Feel free to beat on me more for that fact. =P As for the SNES, I know that one has all the censored crap on it, but personally, I think that one's more speed run friendly, because any speed run of the PC version is better suited for single episode runs only, creating six different videos unless you wanna go through the menu screen about six times. That's just my personal opinion on it. And for FloEdit...I think the guy's site went down. Looks like no maps unless I get my super old PC hooked up.

http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.

Posted: 2/22/2005 5:48 AM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

Did Wolf3D have some method of recording demos? I never knew of it.

Posted: 2/22/2005 6:05 AM

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Josh_the_FunkDOC

Former player

Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH

I think there was a way to make a recording that becomes the in-game demo. Other than that, there was nothing IIRC. -Josh

but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice

Posted: 3/13/2005 6:44 AM

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Rick

Former player

Joined: 6/25/2004
Posts: 607
Location: Maine

Say, I'm wondering now, do any speed run videos even exist for Wolfenstein 3D? A few quick searches on Google have revealed nothing.

http://wiki.rustedlogic.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor The Cutting Room Floor wiki.

Posted: 3/13/2005 10:24 AM

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schneelocke

Joined: 11/11/2004
Posts: 400
Location: ::1

You can record demos in Wolfenstein 3D, yes - http://www.gamers.org/dhs/helpdocs/wolfchts.html says how, for example. Other than that, there are a few advanced Wolfenstein source ports out there (like WolfGL), and I'd be surprised if none of them had any demo recording capabilities.

Posted: 3/22/2005 10:52 PM

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DukeNukem007

Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 75

Dan_ wrote:

You could do the SNES version, or even DOOM for the SNES. With rerecording and all that jazz, It'd look pretty cool.

Just as an FYI, Doom has problems loading save-states not from the same sitting with most SNES9x versions...must be the SuperFX2 emulation. Anyway, doing a speedrun on either of these raises a lot of problems...the PC versions already have lots of real time attacks, and are vastly superior. (I do like how the SNES Wolfenstein has an in-game map feature.) It's true that there are a lot of time-saving glitches that can be used in Wolfenstein, such as, if I recall, enemy AI being abused to lead them to open locked doors. But for PC FPSs, what about Blake Stone and Rise of the Triad? Both improved the Wolfenstein engine a good amount. I especially like how Blake Stone is nonlinear and lets you go back to previous floors.

"If all you did this year was sit in your cubicle and masturbate...say you're a self-starter who proactively reengineered your personal inventory with Total Quality, conforming to all EEO/OSHA/ISO9000 requirements."-Scott Adams

Posted: 6/8/2005 5:28 PM

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McBAIN

Joined: 1/9/2005
Posts: 219
Location: The Netherlands

May i point out there's also a topic about W3D at SDA? http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=other_games;action=display;num=1115311916 I'd LOVE to see a speedrun/TA for W3D, since it's a classic indeed :) I vagely remember my brother finished the game once, a long time ago. I remember the Boss had 2 chainguns and could insta rape you.[/url]

http://www.megazpeed.com - THE site for the ultimate MegaMan Zero superplay movies.

Posted: 6/5/2013 7:02 AM

Post subject: Wolfenstein 3D

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dwangoAC

Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)

Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007

(This thread should replace the out-of-date discussions in this earlier thread.) I've created a very early WIP of Wolfenstein 3D and uploaded the .jrsr file here. This is still somewhat unsuitable for human consumption but at least it's getting closer. This uses an improved script from Ilari for using an Xbox controller to create mouse events and send them to jpc-rr. Ilari discovered there were several movement values that couldn't be exceeded and that the maximum in-game speed could be achieved with the mouse alone without even using the run button. I took that and.. er.. ran with it. Unfortunately, I encountered a desync right after the point that this WIP cuts off. I've created a very badly done WIP encode and uploaded it to: http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/Wolf3DLevel1Partial.mkv I had problems with audio sync but the video appears to be intact. Beware of a loud PC speaker beep at the beginning lest your eardrums suffer as mine did. Thanks in advance for any feedback you may have, and as always Ilari is amazing and deserves a lot of credit for making this possible. A.C. ******

I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.

Posted: 6/5/2013 7:18 AM

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Ilari

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)

Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217

For debugging the desync, finding a place where it can desync and bracketing the point with savestates (the first savestate desyncs, the second doesn't) as tight as possible would be helpful... Edit: Looks like I found the bug: If mouse callback occurs at exact instruction boundary, the events associated with it are emitted with the same timecode as mouse callback. Now, on playing that back, it is undefined (what actually happens depends on when last event was) if the mouse callback or event callback should run first. If event callback runs first, the result could very well be a desync. Fix is to set lower bound for event timestamp to be one nanosecond in the future, as this guarantees that the event callback will run after mouse callback, even if both are during the same instruction. ------ As for the run itself, it looks quite sloppy. - The angles that should be 45 degrees aren't. - I would try changing angles to be suitable for the next room during waiting for door. * 90 degree turn takes about 0.25 seconds. There should be enough time during door opening sequence. - Getting the machinegun looks to waste fair amount of time. * Based on SDA speedrun, machinegun won't speed things that much and one is on path (via deathdrop from first officer encountered) on level 2.

Posted: 6/9/2013 6:38 AM

Post subject: Wolfenstein 3D E1L1 completed in 16 in-game seconds

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dwangoAC

Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)

Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007

The latest WIP which completes E1L1 represents a complete restart, with far more precise controls. From the WIP notes: This completes Wolfenstein 3D Episode 1 Level 1 in 16 in-game seconds. The current SDA record is 20 seconds so this represents a respectable improvement. This run takes damage to save time and focuses on strafing and running at the same time for maximum speed. There are still some interesting oddities here. For instance, it's possible to shoot through doors - specifically, look for a muzzle flash happening before the door opens and a guard death animation already playing out as the door opens in at least a couple of places in the run. Also note that delaying pushing against a door that is opening can significantly impact where a guard will attempt to walk to; this can be seen in the largest gray room as delaying walking against the door causes a guard who opens the door at the far end to walk into the room for easier disposal. I'm very happy with this first level. If someone could make a WIP encode I'd greatly appreciate it (so far all of my efforts have had audio sync issues and have not played back at full speed). Thanks! A.C. ******

I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.

Posted: 6/9/2013 7:13 AM

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Ilari

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)

Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217

I noticed that in the room with the well known secret, you turn your back on the door while it is opening, and backstrafe on the next room. Diagonal backstrafing is slower than diagonal forward strafing... Is there not enough time to turn 90 degrees while the door out the next room is opening or is there something on the way? Quick encode (I had the Lua script on): http://ilari.tasvideos.org/w3d-e1l1.mkv

Posted: 6/9/2013 4:09 PM

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dwangoAC

Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)

Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007

Ilari wrote:

I noticed that in the room with the well known secret, you turn your back on the door while it is opening, and backstrafe on the next room.

I was having difficulty getting the game to allow me to open the door at 135 degrees - I needed to not only turn in the next room (which wastes time) but I also needed to avoid being shot by the remaining guard in the room which IIRC kept happening when I was turning. I don't recall that movement being significantly slower than turning and manipulating away the guard's shot. Having said that, since I'm now willing to take damage it's probable that it would save time in that room. Thank you very much for the full-speed playback with audio encode. I can now see a few things that need to be improved for cosmetic reasons, like holding space for too long while opening the first door which makes a nasty low-pitched "DDDDT" sound. Most of this was impossible to spot without the encode. A.C. ******

I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.

Posted: 6/10/2013 7:20 AM

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CoolKirby

Editor, Experienced player (608)

Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4012

That looked really good! It's nice to see you're making progress on this run. Looking forward to your next WIP.

Posted: 6/15/2013 7:16 AM

Post subject: New WIP, looking for assistance

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dwangoAC

Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)

Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007

I've created a new WIP which completes E1L1 and represents a significant improvement over my previous WIP. The lurch in the first prison cell combined with improved enemy AI manipulation resulted in a faster completion time with no lost health. I'm not precisely certain how much faster this is as I let the movie run a bit longer the first time after pulling the elevator switch but it's definitely faster. I'm very satisfied with this work and I do not currently have any plans to re-do E1L1. Anyone want to help with E1L2? :) Honest question - I'm not sure I want to tackle 8 more (far more time consuming) levels and I'd like to find someone to help out. Ilari has been an immense help already but I know he's working on other projects as well so I figured I'd throw out a general request for help on this one. You'll need to be comfortable compiling in the joystick support and you'll need an Xbox or Xbox 360 controller; this means you'll probably need to be running Linux. Any takers? A.C. ******

I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.

Posted: 6/15/2013 7:55 AM

Post subject: Re: New WIP, looking for assistance

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Ilari

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)

Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217

dwangoAC wrote:

I've created a new WIP which completes E1L1 and represents a significant improvement over my previous WIP. The lurch in the first prison cell combined with improved enemy AI manipulation resulted in a faster completion time with no lost health. I'm not precisely certain how much faster this is as I let the movie run a bit longer the first time after pulling the elevator switch but it's definitely faster.

Looks like this new version is 19 frames (271ms) faster than the old one after fade to black at end (I extended the previous movie to pull the elevator switch).

Posted: 6/15/2013 6:52 PM

Post subject: Encode of new E1L1 WIP

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dwangoAC

Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)

Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007

I've uploaded a quick encode of the E1L1 WIP. Fair warning - the PC Speaker beep at the beginning is DEAFENING compared to the rest of the audio. Ilari suggested I use --audio-mixer-attenuate=org.jpc.emulator.peripheral.PCSpeaker-0:20 at the dumpconvert line next time. Now that I've made an encode and watched it played back at full speed I confess I'm very pleased with how this turned out. A few quick notes: - In the first prison cell, I force the mouse forward as far as possible on one frame then release it which causes a glitch that puts us closer to the door. - At certain points I straferun away from doors I've just opened to manipulate the shots from guards into missing, meaning we end E1L1 with 100% health. - In the brown room after the well-known secret in the hallway I did extensive testing to determine the fastest method to make it diagonally across the room. It boils down to 10 frames N, 15 W for 25 frames at straight angles while going diagonally took 26 frames or more no matter how I tried it. This is because going straight has a faster top speed. - In the curved hallway I run right past two guards, open the door to a room with 4 more, then open the door to a gray hallway with yet another guard (and strafe away from the door to avoid being shot). The number of shouts is amusing. - In the first large gray room I fire a shot on the same frame I open the door (the game won't let you open the door while you're firing but apparently you can do it at the same time). The reason I do this is to alert the guard in the room early for better positioning. - At the end of that room a guard opens the door for us; because the guard is standing in the doorway (manipulated based on the frame I started turning), it's possible to walk through the door while it is still opening. I have to face the guard to shoot him but it's still faster than the previous WIP by a fair margin. - In the last room with the elevator, I open the elevator door on the first frame it would let me which appeared to be three frames after reaching the door. I also run backward to pick up ammo before entering the elevator on the first possible frame and pulling the lever on the first possible frame. I created an initial Game Resources page for Wolfenstein 3D which Ilari subsequently expanded significantly. It describes a lot of the internals of the game and the various speed mechanics. I do not believe this run would have been possible at this speed without Ilari's research. Again, if anyone would like to pick up the torch on this please let me know. Thanks for your comments and enjoy, A.C. ******

I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.

Posted: 6/17/2013 12:50 PM

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Svimmer

Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland

The WIP looks pretty amazing. I like it how you see a little extra information on the screen - that's something I might consider leaving in the final encode, or as an alternative version. As much of it as possible.

Posted: 10/30/2013 10:16 AM

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gamer1989

Joined: 10/30/2013
Posts: 23

very nice. you going to play all 6?