Posts for feos

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Is it fine to use consecutive footage as is for such a test, or do I have to add cuts to it via avisynth?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: New movie flag has been added: Fastest Completion
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http://tasvideos.org/FastestCompletion.html Since this goal is a fundamental one for speedrunning in general, and it tightly relates to our rules, and the audience likes to know this information, this flag is now a reality. The icon for it will be this whenever Nach adds it to the site: Suggest rules clarifications and movies to flag.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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01:40:25 <feos> adelikat: what does your heart say about this CD based game? 01:40:43 <feos> (or guts, whatever you use for such things) 01:41:26 <adelikat> that it isn't worth worrying about :P 01:41:44 <MemoryTAS> wait until we have amiibo etc to deal with 01:41:51 <feos> so we keep it in the queue forever? 01:41:51 <MemoryTAS> that's gonna be fun 01:41:53 <adelikat> but honestly, it sounds like this feature is part of normal gameplay 01:42:34 <adelikat> that was the reasoning for zelda up+a, it's part of normal gameplay I can interpret this: even though you don't know the bit combination you are supposed to send to unlock a certain character, and every combination is arguably secret (not known beforehand from anywhere), every combination is valid as well, so every combination is known, and is known to work!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The game officially promoting maximizing some item or action, can't be completely disregarded if we want to come up with a solid full completion definition for a given game. On the other hand, we can't limit ourselves to this alone either, because the community speedrunning the game may happen to have fuller definition for full completion. So to actually define full completion for a given game, we can't have strict rules, but we can have guidelines that would let us understand how to even handle this. Here's what has been agreed on, on IRC:
  • Read the manual.
  • See what the game tracks, recognizes, awards for.
  • Check what existing speedrun community does.
  • Talk to the community and try to come up with an agreement.
  • Keep the definition clear and solid considering the above factors.
I added the last point to indicate that when people are brainstorming, we must encourage them to come up with clear and solid definitions, but we still rely on the community decision. So if everyone agrees that this movie's goals should be considered full completion for this game, at least for tasvideos, we can consider it vaultable. Whether or not we should use the "100%" label, is still to be discussed. The guidelines make an exception for counting things other than percentage:
When counting some units instead of percents, apply similar logic. Refer to collecting all items as "all X".
Using this approach has been agreed on by Nach as I said, but in cases when the full completion goal is a compound one in its nature, maybe using "100%" is just the neatest solution, rather than "all X, all Y, all Z, all [, all \, all ], all ↑, all ←". As for MMX, the Mega Man series just weren't revised regarding branches and new labeling rules. Only SMB and Pokemon games were IIRC.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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My take is that while this movie does collect all the permanent items and upgrades, which could lead to the 100% movie class, it aims for more stuff beyond this movie class. It also gets the best ending, which is a different movie class, and it also aims for full map, which we don't have a movie class for, and we haven't ever considered such a goal a part of full completion. If we want "100% map" (or something along these lines) to be considered a part of the full completion goal for a game, we need it to originate from the game recognizing this goal as a part of full completion. In Super Metroid, "100% map" is not a part of full completion. We limit full completion there to just "all items", and this is what the game cares about, awarding you with a 100% screen, which officially states that you've collected them all. If for this game we can agree that everything this movie does can be clearly checked in-game as N out of N, then the game does recognize our completion in all these aspects. If some of them the game doesn't care about, we can't say they clearly and officially belong to full completion. If a game explicitly encourages you to complete N out of N something, it's an easy case, the most obvious, official definition for such a game. If the game just recognizes fullness of something, it is also easy, like "all levels" in SMA4 (don't remember if the game encourages that). But in SMB3, the game doesn't recognize your "all levels" goal, so we decided not to call it full completion for SMB3. In cases where nothing is encouraged or recognized by the game as possible to complete fully, there's no clear and obvious way to define full completion. If my information about this game is correct, this movie does some things beyond clear and obvious, vaultable full completion. If so, it's unvaultable. Since the game does not have any percentage counter, we can't use N%, which is exactly what the publisher guidelines say (agreed by Nach). In such cases we use "all X". But yet again, this run aims for more than just "all X". It aims for "all X, all Y, all Z", and some of these were decided by me (with the information I had) as not parts of the vaultable full completion goal. If we agree that it's not vaultable, we need to come up with a label that reflects the goals the most accurately, if possible. So we just have to agree on something. I'm open for discussion.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'm only saying that it's still totally boring, even with this feature. It's bad from the general audience perspective. Novel idea, effort invested into making it all work within its genre, nothing really interesting to actually play.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Habreno wrote:
I get the analogy being made here. I would state that you're missing one piece, in that, not because the game being unplayably boring is why "passwords" are used, but because the game explicitly wants you to input "passwords" to get randomly created characters, with a few special discs providing special characters. I cannot say if MR or MR2 are "boring" to play without generating a monster via a CD, as I have never played them nor ever will. However, I can tell just by reading this thread that they are certainly intended to be played by inputting "passwords" for new, randomly-generated characters. Given that is a major point of the game, I'd definitely consider allowing an exception for Vault in cases like this.
There are tons of games that are very fun to play without passwords, so using passwords in them feels like a special addition. No one demands their SRAM-anchored or password based movies should be vaultable. Because without those, such games have their merits. This game is useless without this feature. And this feature still introduces ridiculous amount of subjectivity, ambiguity, exceptions. And in the end, even with the feature, the game is still totally boring! I would go as far as to say that this game is just bad. It's poorly designed, if even playing it in the ways it wants to be played, it's still absolutely not entertaining to the general audience. I explained in details why such cases do not belong to Vault in principle: the Vault requires clear cuts, standardized goals, simply verifiable and objective definitions for everything. This badly made game fails to provide Moons value entertainment, and it fails to provide Vault clarity rules. I fail to see why anyone even wishes its CD-monsters to be vaultable. People fail to understand what Vault is, and what it exists for. They simply set themselves a goal that the game just has to be published somehow, no matter how, with extra CDs. No one has ever tried to prove that this game has any vaultable qualities. Because it doesn't. I'll reply to Omnigamer later.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Good point. You might want to try other keyints, starting with 2 and waiting for seeking to stop being instant. Maybe somewhere at around 10 it becomes a problem? I dunno, a wild guess.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'll boil this entire problem down to a few clear and objectively verifiable points.
  1. This game explicitly asks the user to use the CD-ROM drive as an input device.
  2. We have to agree that for this game, sending specific input through the CD-ROM drive is usual, and this is similar to a special controller.
  3. Input that the user ever sends to the game is just bits of data, and the game interprets them as it wants.
  4. Sending input data to advance through the game, doing certain actions and getting certain outcome gradually, or via glitches, is the usual way of playing games.
  5. There may be specific input combinations that spawn new characters not present from the start, without having to get them the usual way (see the previous point).
  6. If the game does not explicitly tell you those combinations (during gameplay or in the instructions), using them in Vault is not allowed.
  7. Such uncommunicated inputs are treated as secret codes, and if they unlock such new characters, they are only allowed for Moons.
  8. It is possible for a game to have a password system instead of input combination system, and to use that to spawn such new characters.
  9. It is possible for a game to never communicate password examples, in which case they all become secret codes.
  10. It is possible for a game to allow loose experimentation with a password system, where every password would spawn some randomly arranged character.
  11. If such a game can be completed without spawning new characters, then they are not required, they are optional.
  12. If such a game is made to be unplayably boring without such passwords, players may refuse to play it without passwords.
  13. In that case, in real life, passwords may become a usual way to play this game, from the real human perspective.
Finally, the question. Should the above scenario justify accepting for Vault a movie using passwords to spawn new characters not present from the game start, and not otherwise obtained during the movie? And why exactly yes or no?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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03:52:53 <DeHackEd> TASVideoAgent: refresh cache nao for http://tasvideos.org/DeHackEd.html 03:52:54 <TASVideoAgent> DeHackEd: Cache has been updated, Sir! 03:53:18 <DeHackEd> I feel like this could turn into a game of SNES family feud 03:53:56 <TASVideoAgent> I am buying everyone lumps of tuna 03:54:09 <Dacicus> Lumps... of tuna? 03:54:25 <TASVideoAgent> It is a feos classic 03:54:27 <EZGames69> I love tuna 03:54:37 <EZGames69> Everyone on discord is confused btw 03:54:40 <TASVideoAgent> and honey 03:54:54 <DeHackEd> TVA is not a puppet. get your arm out of his ass
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Omnigamer wrote:
For the purpose of that rule, I think the usual/unusual specification can only be scoped to the game in question. If it's scoped to gaming as a whole, "unusual" is too broad to effectively classify. MR2 may use an unusual method of gathering input compared to other games on the platform, but that would also extend to any game that requires unique controller/peripheral data handling. If the difference is that other games happen to support the data natively over the controller bus, that's a limitation of the tools, not a fault of the game. It doesn't seem like an enforceable distinction when scoped outside of the gameplay of the game alone.
The game image is not input. Input is not the game image. Using the hardware parts that connect us with the game image, as a source of user input, is objectively not usual. Not giving the user direct control over the outcome is even less usual. This way to obtain user input is unpredictable for a regular user. And this approach is overall moot when it comes to classifications. Moot scenarios are not for Vault. Another important point is that the rule already lists exactly our case ("unlock a special character"), and only then generalizes ("or otherwise play the game in some unusual way") for cases that are similar in nature, but different in the details. There's no point in speculating about usuality when it's already namely covered.
Omnigamer wrote:
I also disagree with the continued focus on "arbitrary" when applied to discs being a factor; the data pulled from the discs is no more arbitrary than the set of controller inputs. The data gathered from any given image is small, can be generated/simulated, and leads to a finite and fully handled set of outcomes in the game. This is not a case of hijacking a peripheral IO port and injecting program-altering instructions. It is loading data from a fixed medium using intended and expected game functionality. The data that's loaded in this manner is limited and fair, but currently not included as part of a movie file. I don't see why including this information as part of a submission makes it not objective when everybody has the same ability to craft and introduce data.
This is only true for this particular game. When setting precedents, we should foresee possible ways to shoot ourselves in the foot that may be discovered if we don't account for enough aspects. If we allow this for this game, tomorrow someone finds a game that uses arbitrary CDs in infinitely more cryptic (creative) ways, and it'd be impossible to simulate having them for real. And it's impossible to build a rule around real world possibilities you have literally no control over. "Arbitrary" means that it might as well be absolutely anything else, and we won't be able to draw an objective borderline.
Omnigamer wrote:
I don't know the full history of your interactions with educational games and past rulings, so I will decline to comment on that.
Knowing history is in no way required. I linked you directly to the judgment decision that explains what problems Vault has with unclear cases.
Omnigamer wrote:
You bring up Moons and Stars, but in your personal estimation, how far is this current submission from meeting Moons criteria? I don't know the future, and other individuals are far more creative than I can envision, but I personally doubt a movie for this game could be significantly more entertaining than what has been shown by NK. I don't think such a movie will ever meet the bar for Moons just by virtue of how the game progresses and the limited options available to a player.
Again, exactly! We can't know how entertaining this is able to be until someone tries, but we can't guarantee that it ends up being entertaining, and if it may end up being not entertaining at all, why exactly do you bring up the TAS qualities of this game? Vault is not about TAS qualities, it's about objective and simple speed records. The very fact that we're having this argument means this case is not usual, it is not clear, and it doesn't rely on anything objective.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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hegyak wrote:
Not allowing arbitrary Discs feels like an arbitrary restriction
Fixed this for you. I think the internal contradiction is obvious here.
Omnigamer wrote:
I disagree that the rule applies here because it specifically denotes playing the game in an unusual way. Using discs or otherwise is in fact the usual way of playing the game. Not using discs and otherwise would, for purposes of casual play and developer intent, be unusual.
It may be usual for this game, but this whole concept is still unusual compared to all the other games, and I think you will agree with me here.
Omnigamer wrote:
This gets into the grayer area that I mentioned though, and a lot of it is tied to experience. I played this game a fair bit when I was growing up, and all I can say is that playing the game without the ability to use discs feels wrong.
We care about feelings, and we want our audience to experience the best feelings. This is what we have Moons and Stars for. But in Vault, feelings are subjective, so we can't rely on them.
Omnigamer wrote:
It may as well not be the same game at that point, since it so drastically limits your options. From a TASing/speedrunning perspective, it also takes away a huge chunk of the routing challenge. Those are not objective things that can be part of any set of rules, but in this case do matter a lot for the competitiveness of the game down the road.
I call this TASability. I argued that some educational games may have TASability, therefore they should be accepted to Vault. But yet again, TASability is a potential matter, it can only be proven to be there once someone invents ways to showcase it. And for cases when TAS qualities of a game are showcased, we have Moons and Stars! Here's the decision that explains this concept in more details.
Omnigamer wrote:
However, for the reasons stated in the prior paragraph, this is not nearly as interesting of a problem to solve, nor does it reflect how a typical player would experience the game. It may not make a difference in trying to keep rules consistent, but in my opinion makes any disc-less submissions far less interesting/entertaining to perform or watch.
Exactly! You want it to become vaultable because it'd be entertaining and interesting to make and to watch. But it's not proven to be entertaining yet. The whole problem is the same as with Math Blaster. People want it to be vaultable because they care so much, yet no one cared enough to actually enjoy the movie in question! Movies like this one can't be vaulted not because we have some unfortunate rule that we just have to obey, but because the whole nature of the Vault tier is to accept boring movies if their gameplay can be clearly, objectively speedrun. When a game entirely depends on arbitrary external data, having it in Vault defeats the purpose of the tier.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I think the rule I mentioned after that post resolved quite a few of your concerns. Look at it this way: There is a feature to unlock a new monster not present from the start. The game does not tell you what you need to use exactly for some known outcome. It encourages you to experiment. Yet without unlocking anything, you can still complete the game. The site rules do not care what this feature is technically, as long as it functionally does the above. It might have been a password generator that would pseudo-randomly spawn you new monsters, with the game asking to test words of the English language against it. It might have been a button combination used as a randomness seed. It might have bean leftover RAM that remains from previously used game, and isn't initialized by the game in question. The options are endless, the functionality is the same: external data not known from normal gameplay is used to unlock new monsters. If instead it was something required to even complete the game, we'd have to make an exception yet again, even if unlocking is the only way to complete it. But thankfully, this isn't the case, and I honestly don't know if it will ever be. As for optimality, as long as the image suits one's goals, it doesn't have to be unimprovable in that regard. It should only be hard to improve, which means due effort should be invested into optimizing it. But human nature means there will always be room for further improvements.
Omnigamer wrote:
Finally, I just want to say that if the criteria listed at the end of feos' longpost are taken up as official policy, then it is unlikely any disc-based Monster Rancher game will ever be acceptable on the site. The game, while interesting to optimize, does not allow enough expressive freedom or content diversity to meet Moon entertainment requirements. If that's the way that it has to be, then so be it, but it effectively kills off an otherwise reasonable game choice from competitive consideration.
Do you mean obtaining monsters from external discs is required to complete the game after all? If not, avoiding external images is vaultable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Tested a couple dumping options. Requirements: fast encoding, fast seeking, small filesize. Tested on a toaster, Sonic 3 & Knuckles running for 10k frames without input. Lagarith Command: Video for Windows (2GB split unavoidable, also codec is Windows only) Keyint: 1 (can't be changed) Seeking backwards: instant. Size: 256MB (100%) Speed: 140fps (100%) libx264rgb Command: ffmpeg -c:a pcm_s16le -c:v libx264rgb -qp 0 -preset ultrafast -g 1 -pix_fmt rgb24 -f avi Keyint: 1 Seeking backwards: instant. Size: 911MB (356%) Speed: 130fps (93%) Command: ffmpeg -c:a pcm_s16le -c:v libx264rgb -qp 0 -preset ultrafast -g 30 -pix_fmt rgb24 -f avi Keyint: 30 Seeking backwards: instant. Size: 177MB (69%) Speed: 130fps (93%) Command: ffmpeg -c:a pcm_s16le -c:v libx264rgb -qp 0 -preset ultrafast -g 60 -pix_fmt rgb24 -f avi Keyint: 60 Seeking backwards: fast. Size: 163MB (63%) Speed: 130fps (93%) Command: ffmpeg -c:a pcm_s16le -c:v libx264rgb -qp 0 -preset ultrafast -pix_fmt rgb24 -f avi Keyint: 250 (default) Seeking backwards: slow! Size: 153MB (59%) Speed: 130fps (93%) Command: ffmpeg -c:a pcm_s16le -c:v libx264rgb -qp 0 -preset ultrafast -g 600 -pix_fmt rgb24 -f avi Keyint: 600 Seeking backwards: really slow! Size: 151MB (58%) Speed: 130fps (93%) FFV1 Command (what Dolphin uses): ffmpeg -c:a pcm_s16le -c:v ffv1 -pix_fmt bgr0 -level 1 -g 1 -coder 1 -context 1 -f avi Keyint: 1 Seeking backwards: instant. Size: 331MB (129%) Speed: 80fps (57%) Command: ffmpeg -c:a pcm_s16le -c:v ffv1 -pix_fmt bgr0 -level 1 -g 30 -coder 1 -context 1 -f avi Keyint: 30 Seeking backwards: instant. Size: 308MB (120%) Speed: 80fps (57%)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
Putting a different CD into the PSX is not relying on knowledge external to the game, just data external to the game.
Data is information, knowledge is acknowledged information, any knowledge is data. If you insert an image external to the game, you get the knowledge that you haven't got from the actual game. This knowledge is already contained in a potential form in this external image. You game did not have it either. It will learn this external knowledge if you insert such an image. So yes, putting a different CD is relying on external knowledge.
DrD2k9 wrote:
A player who inputs a code must know the specific code before inputting it to yield it's result (and it can be generally assumed that the player knows what that result will be before using the code). A player sticking a different CD into the PSX doesn't have to have a specific CD nor does the player need to know the result of the CD used to continue with the game.
They still have to have a CD to insert. They may not have one.
DrD2k9 wrote:
Further, the use of the CD is intended as part of normal play, not play enhanced/altered by a secret code/input sequence.
First, the very "normal" is moot for this game. We're having this argument exactly because it's moot. Second, you spawn secret monsters using this method, you unlock secret content, and this is covered by the rules as unvaultable.
DrD2k9 wrote:
I generally look at codes/passwords/etc. as things that either intentionally make the game easier/harder. The CD swap with the MR games is not a guaranteed result of easier or harder (it could in fact yield a neutral result).
Obviously obtaining a more advanced monster makes it easier, compared to sating from scratch. The fact that someone at some point in history figured out how the game uses the other CD's data (which then allows us to pre-define that CD) doesn't change the fact that the game is still using the information as if it's a normal unenhanced playthrough. The CD swap is a 'luck' situation. Getting the best possible monster from the swap is like getting lucky in picking the right disc when playing on actual hardware. We just manipulate the luck to yield the best outcome.[/quote]
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Movie Rules wrote:
We allow playing unlockable content using in-game passwords Using in-game codes[1] or passwords at the start of a game is allowed if it makes the game harder or if it makes cosmetic changes to the game, as long as parts of the game are not skipped. Using in-game codes or passwords at the start of a game to unlock a special game mode, character, level sets, or otherwise play the game in some unusual way is allowed. However movies of this nature are not considered to be one of the primary branches for the game.
This is indeed the key to this whole conversation. See the explanation of what tasvideos means by in-game codes:
When we speak about codes that are part of a game that we allow for use in certain scenarios, we are talking about passwords that can be entered in a menu, pressing some buttons on the title screen, passing execution parameters or setting environment variables for DOS games, or anything of a similar nature. This excludes things like Game Genie codes or emulator cheating tools.
It is very clear that for Monstar Rancher 2, a feature that allows you to unlock hidden monsters is exactly of this nature as well, so it falls under all the limitations as these codes do.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
Required, No.
Then it's not any%. My point all along is that you can't disagree that those external CDs are still not parts of the actual software we're playing. Launching the game does not magically spawn CDs in your room. It's theoretically possible to program generating an extra image, if CD recording is a thing when the game is being released, but it is still fundamentally separate from the game we're playing. If you play Super Metroid, you make decisions on which items you want to pick, and they fundamentally belong to the game. You are able to access them after simply launching it and playing through a bit. They are valid for any%. Damn, even SRAM usage itself is allowed, as long as you generate SRAM by playing through the game you've launched from scratch. You start the game with clear SRAM, you write to it at some point - you can load it. And it's still any%. But when you use SRAM that was obtained outside of your main movie, for example, it comes from a movie that you've stopped an hour ago, then it's not any%. You need to understand the principle here: starting a new movie from SRAM is intended and encouraged. But it's not vaultable, because this SRAM is external to your movie. The thing with external CDs is identical: they can not be a part of your movie, therefore they aren't vaultable.
DrD2k9 wrote:
It's kind of like Generation 1 pokemon games. Through normal gameplay (not using glitches) it's impossible to catch all the pokemon without trading with another player via a link cable attached to another gameboy (an outside source of data). Doing so isn't necessary to beat the game, but it can be used as a resource to yield different/stronger pokemon that may allow for beating the game faster than playing through without trading. (yes I realize the presence of glitches makes this moot for pokemon games specifically, but the concept of the outside resource is sound.)
You said it yourself. Catching them all is not any% for pokemon games, it's full completion.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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But are external CDs required to be able to beat the game?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I have a more concrete point. If magically obtaining a monster from an external source is any% for this game, then what are we supposed to do with all the gameplay where you have to raise/train/improve/breed your monster? What is it even there for? Is it not any% anymore? Is it primary any% versus secondary any%?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Do you think a lot of people would agree with you on this?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The question is, do you count the scenario where things you haven't obtained during normal gameplay, magically appear from the outside, as an any% category?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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My build is just a hack of X432R.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Saved game is not related either. Saved game won't help us get rid of the additional image requirement if we want new monsters. The question is, why do you think we should judge 2 similar scenarios differently: 1) using SRAM to unlock new content not available from scratch, and 2) using additional image to unlock new content not available from scratch? How does the latter magically make it any%? Especially given how strict some people are about any% in general, the purpose of Vault is to never have to explain anyone that "well, this particular not-quite-any% is still considered any% by some people, therefore we consider it absolutely objectively clear cut, and therefore vaultable". Do excuses like this really sound sensible to anyone?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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