Posts for Acheron86


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Spider-Waffle wrote:
I was thinking that getting some luck items for tifa could really save a lot time depending on what level she is at when you fight the bosses and what level the bosses are at.
IIRC this was discussed earlier. I believe the conclusion was that deathblow is better than out-of-the-way luck boosts, but I don't remember for sure.
Then I had another idea of saving and loading the game to avoid random battles instead of pausing 3/4 times.
Even if it was faster to save/load the game, this would break up the run in a very bad way. Entertainment should be a factor here--the game's already long enough, and turning out a bunch of load screens would further hurt its watchability. My 2c.
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I don't know of any simple way to name this type of run. Again, I prefer the phrase "memory corruption" and the description could include a description of how read/write access is abused, but that's just me.
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Warp wrote:
You have insinuated that watching the run would somehow affect my opinion on the subject matter that I have been writing about, but you have completely failed to explain why that would be so.
I don't want to fan the flames here, but this question needs answering. -Sometimes, exceptions to the rules will come up. Runs will be submitted that require special attention. -In such cases, it may be helpful to view the run before you argue for or against its exceptional publication. -In the event you argue the rules without first viewing the run, you may not have all the details. This to me is a logical train of thought. When it is ignored, it appears as though one does not feel a need to watch the run to postulate an argument regarding its publication. I feel that this is akin to a movie critic who watches the trailer, reads a synopsis, and decides a film is bad without watching it, or a game reviewer who plays ten minutes into a game, decides it is not to his liking, and writes out the reasons the game is bad, without experiencing the game beyond his initial cursory examination. In all cases, we are ultimately talking about informed vs. uninformed opinion. I can tell you the reasons this game should be an exception, but why should that onus fall on me? In the case something exceptional is submitted, it should fall on its critics to take a look at it themselves, and make a logical decision regarding its publication. That does not mean it is in no way an argument that I can contribute to, but since ultimately we cannot deal in absolutes here (tasvideos.org isn't owned by Kierkegaard), players and viewers who see an argument regarding a run should really take the time to see the run in question before discussing it. Otherwise they will never be properly informed, because no amount of arguing I or anyone else makes will be equivalent to the actual run itself. In other words, if you want an argument, you should watch the run--it speaks for itself, better than we can.
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Warp wrote:
Discussing a rule of the website which applies to cheat codes supported by the game itself is invalid if I haven't watched a certain run? Exactly how does that make any sense? Exactly how would watching the run change anything I have written? Do runs get special exceptions of the rules if they look good enough or something? Could this be applied to other rules as well? Do, for example, using GameGenie codes become a valid form of TASing if the run looks cool enough?
At some point you have to remember the purpose of the rules. We uphold them because there is a spirit to the law, not just because somebody came along and said "hey, these are the rules, and it doesn't matter why they're there, we just have to follow them." If you haven't seen the run, it will definitely affect your perceived credibility. As it is, your posts give the impression that your interest here is to enforce the rules regardless of their consequences or purpose. Surely you can see why that would rub people the wrong way. If you want to have that reputation, I have no problem with it, and I really don't feel a strong need to defend this run from your criticisms, because I think it's a good proof-of-concept in and of itself of why the rules should not be blindly enforced; if the judges decide otherwise, so be it. That's assuming that your perspective is correct, and that's not something of which I'm convinced, but I won't argue the point that the definition of "cheat vs. glitch" here is anything but a fine line. I do agree with the posters here that the fine line is still there, and you don't, which is okay, but it's still a hard pill to swallow that you'd be so adamant about the rules when you haven't taken the time to appreciate why we think this should be exceptioned assuming that you're right in the first place. I find it a dangerous and problematic policy to critique runs I've not watched under any circumstances, simply because enforcing rules just to enforce them, without exception, isn't in my job description. Are you sure it should be your role here? Can't we trust the judges to do that? It seems like a good way to build a bad reputation.
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DrJones wrote:
When you reach the debug menu, what every person will see is that you open the debug menu, use it to warp to the end, and done, which is incredibly lame because instead of "superplaying" you are using a debug function to warp to the end of the game. Debug code is considered off-limits for that reason. Claiming it's not cheating when the main purpose of a debug menu is to cheat is laughable.
"Laughable" is a very poor and somewhat arrogant choice of words, I think... Your premise is correct (everyone who sees this run in action will see the debug menu accessed) but the assumption that we would all agree it is "incredibly lame" is faulty. As someone who knows Earthbound inside-out, this was an impressive surprise for me. At the very least, players familiar with the game may enjoy the use of a glitch to access the normally-inaccessible debug menu. (And I really think the word "cheat" is being used far too gratuitously in this thread, since it has different meanings to different people and isn't the best way to describe the glitches used here). Also, the main purpose of a debug menu is for developer testing, not cheating. Generally speaking, they never existed to allow player progression out of sequence, and again I think we can agree the developers never imagined nor intended for players to use this menu in a playthrough on cartridge after the game shipped. I do agree that the run should not obsolete the any% run; I think the site really needs a category going forward for memory read/write corruption, as I doubt this is the last time we'll have this issue.
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
I'd rather just see a video showing the glitch, maybe it can be edited into the real video with an explanation, but I think the real run should just go for speed. Spending 4 seconds to gain a level for 3 characters could be worth it, just have to think of how it will let you go faster in the future. The faster time between actions should help at least, not sure what's going to be killing the bosses.
While I think Toothache is being rather harsh, ultimately I am inclined to agree that most of the ideas you've suggested are examples of "out-loud wondering", not backed by any research. There's been all sorts of runs of this game in the last few years, from 100% to minimum XP/no materia/no limits/no equipment runs, and the research behind these playthroughs have debunked most theories suggested here and pretty much proven that the best way to play this game speedwise is to avoid fights whenever possible; the gain from XP and items is just not worth the long battle cinematics and fight times you'd endure. There are a couple exceptions to the rule, but FF7 is a pretty well-researched game (though TASing is still [relatively] a new type of run). Note I am not claiming any level of expertise; I have a passing familiarity at best. I'm just chiming in to point out that a lot of these suggestions are not new, and that it might behoove some viewers to check out the minimalist playthroughs to get a better idea of how little a difference it often makes to acquire abilities/gear. Also, you can't cause Fury with the Tranquilizer; it cures Fury, and if you aren't in Fury status, it induces Sadness. Hyper removes Sadness and induces Fury from normal status. I think you are a bit mixed up there. (And yes, I know Toothache explained this just above, but his wording may be misleading, so I'm just clarifying.)
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zem: I have no problems opening, viewing, and seeking through mister epic's encodes. I am using VLC to watch the video, and I have the flip4mac and Perian codecs installed, not that you should (normally) need anything more than VLC to view .mkv files without issue.
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Post subject: Re: bosses
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antd wrote:
I won't work on this run for a long time.
Sad to hear that, but we'll wait patiently for your return. Looks great so far.
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Thanks for clarifying. I think I follow you better. Categorically, I can understand the argument better. I'm still not sure I agree with your conclusion... there's still a definite distinction between a cheat routine being intentionally accessible vs. unintentionally accessible. Just the same, it's still triggering event flags in a very direct means, one that feels very "out of bounds". Walking through walls to trigger event flags, while bizarre, is a different category of glitch than directly picking what event flags are set from a menu. I don't think this should make the run unpublishable. I think it would definitely warrant a different category, or at least deserve a spot in the category of technical demonstration. That's the judges' call, of course... guess we'll see.
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Warp wrote:
Suppose that Konami had published a game where they intended to have their classic cheat-code, but then at the last minute they decided to disable it, so it would not be accessible via normal play (eg. by simply changing the jump opcode which is triggered by entering the cheat code into a nop instead of jumping to the cheat routine, or whatever). Also suppose that the cheat routine could nevertheless still be executed by abusing a glitch. Would it become acceptable? IMO it wouldn't become any more acceptable. It would still be the konami code, even though it's being triggered by unconventional means.
The "Konami code" wouldn't be known as a code if it were only accessible via glitch. It would be... well, a glitch; one that allowed you to use developer tools in-game. That's a lot different than intentionally-designed button input codes. I imagine the purpose of banning the Konami code is because codes don't add anything interesting or new to the game. Codes that give you weapons early, skip levels, or activate God Mode don't make for impressive TASes. That makes sense; you can't call it a superplay if you do something any human can normally do. Now if the Konami code was a glitch, and it gave you superpowers? That's a different story. It's not an intentional button input under certain circumstances, now... it's become a chance occurance, the accidental access of code due to luck and random coding. The fact that the debug mode can be accessed at all in Earthbound via bad memory pointers represents winning the lottery; it's something that should never have happened, but did against the odds. Showcasing this glitch is a technical feat in and of itself. I think it's a good argument right out that accessing developer tools when they are intended to be unreachable is impressive. I'm absolutely in agreement that an intentionally-programmed, easily-accessed, well-known cheat code should not be permitted in a TAS in general. An unintentional, accidental, obscure game glitch that lets you use developer tools to skip to the end of the game is a different story. We may have to agree to disagree, which is fine. I think it's not a hard sell to say this does not count as a cheat code; even if it does, it's a pretty good time to make an exception or reconsider the purpose of that rule. Ultimately, this run does something I doubt we'd see in any speedrun, and it's technically impressive (more so when you understand the game and the circumstances at work here). That should hold some merit, I think.
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xAzz wrote:
I wonder who would still care for this, for I'm sure almost everyone saw it on youtube already :P
C'mon, kid, show some respect for the encoders.
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Warp wrote:
Personally I think that using such a debug menu to "cheat" in the game is completely equivalent to using a cheat-key (such as the Konami code). It makes absolutely no difference how the cheat is entered (ie. whether there's legitimate support in the game or whether it's done via a glitch).
There's a crucial difference, I think, between a well-known cheat code and a glitch abused to access something clearly not intended for use by players. The Konami cheat code analogy doesn't really work here, because it's something the developers knowingly left available to players... it isn't showing off anything really impressive. This, by contrast, shows an abuse of game mechanics to achieve a result never intended by the programmers. To me, that's an example of superplay.
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A note on the Game Genie cheat code mentioned earlier: IIRC, that code causes the game to ignore scripts within the text... specifically, it ignores the "stop text now" scripts. All of Earthbound's text is a giant clusterfuck of lines, pretty normal for an RPG. The code just tells the game to keep reading, ignoring any commands otherwise. This is why you have to start from one of a few places; the Scaraba sign, Brick Road's sign, and Pokey's speech are all sequential in the order of the text as it's stored within the ROM, and Pokey's dialogue is followed by a line of text which includes script to trigger the debug menu. That's also why you have to turn off the code when getting the "NNW SMSK?" message; if you leave it on, the text reader still ignores code telling it to stop pulling lines. My memory of Earthbound is a little foggy (I haven't looked at its inner workings in a couple years) so please correct me if I'm off base here. I still don't fully understand how the broken pointer pulled from bad memory within the tent is manipulable, so if someone would like to elaborate, that would be nice.
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Kirkq wrote:
It is my opinion that the Earthbound categories should be something similar to the following: (1:) Run with memory corruption (2:) Run without memory corruption, but still major glitches (3:) Run satisfying some completionist conditions or perhaps just banning certain glitches in run (2:)
While I'm not sure I'd call this "memory corruption", I agree with the overall statement. This game provides both the ability to directly force changes in code (debug mode access) AND glitches that allow for major skips, but in a way that isn't specifically using developer-only tools (current published run's staircase sickness abuse). Both are entertaining, in different ways, but the more interesting one is also slower. Given that the slower one is currently published, it would be very strange to turn a faster run down; however, it should not obsolete the previous run, because the older one is (debatably) more impressive to watch. In this case, I would think we just need a proper categorization. Perhaps the current run is the "fastest w/defeat of final boss" and the new one would simply be "fastest", or something along those lines. (Sometimes coming up with the appropriate designation is the hardest thing...)
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errror1 wrote:
I'm not really sure what the goals should be, I just figured quickest, because it's easy to define. What do you think about having one person do all of a world, picking a goal and sticking too it for that world, and writing a description expiating the goal. That way we may have one world played for speed, a low par word, a glitch world, a beat everything with just an airvent, etc..
The published Brain Age TAS is a good example of a run of a game where the main goal is entertainment; I feel like the same circumstances are at work here. Some games are more impressive when played creatively, compared to swift play. If the goal of the site is to bring us superplays, why be limited to pure speed? Speed isn't going to be as impressive in this game as those "wow, I can't believe that worked" solutions that I'm sure you could find for almost every level. I would approach this game with the goal of finding a ridiculous and roundabout way of clearing each stage.
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May I ask why you feel this game should be published? The gameplay is mediocre and slow, the lag is horrendous, and I'm really not seeing anything impressive for the average viewer here. Technically it may be an achievement, but I'm just not convinced this is a publishable game in any sense. Abstaining from voting to give author a chance to explain his reasoning, but I'm definitely leaning towards "no" at this point.
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GreenaLink wrote:
Then explain the Link's Awakening DX "Glitched" run ;) http://tasvideos.org/1292M.html That run had the same goal but used a different method of glitching via Wrong Dog Kennel entry as opposed to the Select Glitch.
To me this is a pretty good counter-point to my original statement, and one I'm inclined to agree on. To play devil's advocate a little longer, let me just ask: is it possible to use the route in the any% glitched LttP run in this version of the game? I believe it is... and if that's the case, I think it's not quite an accurate comparison; the Link's Awakening GB run and GBC run both complete the games in the shortest time possible (because the select-warp trick is not available in the DX version of the game). That said, the fact that LA has runs of multiple versions of the game published is a possible point to be made for this run's publication.
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To me this is a cool run that might have a place in Gruefood Delight. It's hard to argue for publication, because ultimately this is a run of a rerelease of a game with a small amount of content added. The route is clever and it's interesting to watch, but we're ultimately still looking at a run of LttP + a minute or so of added content; in my mind, this just doesn't justify a new category. Nicely done... I did enjoy it. My vote is meh; I'm not entirely opposed to its publication, but I suspect it won't happen, based on past precedent. Good work and I look forward to future submissions from you.
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I'm sure there's a to properly integrate an IL Table into the site without making it look messy and cluttered. That shouldn't be a reason to vote no. That said, this really wasn't a very interesting watch at all. I was bored about halfway through. I'm voting no for poor game/mode choice. (Playing with the computers in GP mode may be more interesting.)
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Synx wrote:
u make it seem like a bad thing.
Your excitement is great, but I think we've got the message. Past a certain point, it's no longer a refreshing reminder of an eager audience.
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Weirwindle wrote:
It is simple, I see TASvideos as a place to where questions are solved. The questions being "What is the fastest way to complete ___ game?" The solutions being our runs. Though the chance of that question being asked about Battle Chess in minuscule, it doesn't hurt to find a good solution for it just like anything else.
There's a pretty considerable history here of submissions where gameplay is excellent but game choice is boring. This has almost always resulted in rejection. I can appreciate a single attempt to put a game out there, but repeated submissions on your part aren't helping your argument any. If a game is denied, it's best to move on. ("Move on" doesn't mean submitting an unrelated game with a password that breaks the rules here.)
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Bisqwit wrote:
*) I seem to lack the English vocabulary words to properly describe what exactly is wrong with it. It could be sketched with adjectives like "thickheaded", "insistant" or "arrogant", but that only gets half-way of it at most and also has wrong meanings.
Immature pretty much nails it, I think. The English language is sometimes limited in these instances. We don't really have a word that describes his approach. Maybe "stubbornly and inconsiderately persistent" covers it, but that's a couple of words.
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RingRush wrote:
If we were going to see a low% run, I think a low% all temples is a much better option.
If this is the most entertaining of the options, I see no reason it shouldn't be done... that, of course, is up to whoever runs it. I've been bored lately, but I get the feeling this isn't a good first game to attempt TASes of; seems complicated. A shame... I'd take it on myself, if I could. :(
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Weirwindle wrote:
Damn right.
I'm confused as to why you chose to TAS this game in the first place. I'm sure you have your reasons, but there's so many more interesting games out there for the purposes of an interesting/impressive run. There's almost no difference between a TAS and real-time run of this game in the eyes of the audience, so why this game? What do you think makes it worth the effort? Why should it be on TASVideos?
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RattleMan wrote:
As RingRush said, the only thing questionable is the Deku Stick icon that appears during RBA. It's unusable and you never acquire any actual Deku Sticks ("ammo"), so some wonder if it counts as an item.
Which route is more entertaining: stick-on-B or the alternative without the stick?
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