The biggest downer when talking about branches of runs for this game is that there's just so little that changes, especially when you're talking about "lowest" anything. The current fastest run is already basically a minimalist run, so a low coin collection is going to be mostly the same input, isn't it? Just some clever goomba jumping on 8-1 stands out.
I support the notion of a maximum coin collection run, although whether or not it was worthy of publication will have to be seen. HappyLee points out that coins respawn when you die, but if the primary goal was speed, with maximum coins secondary to that, then dying is off the table, I think.
Point is, if you want to add a new branch of a game to the list of published TASes, it seems the gameplay should be significantly different AND interesting. "No coins" is definitely not the former and may or may not be the latter. "Minimum score" is different but not very exciting. Max coins might be both, though... hard to say.
Marx wrote:
Hey,
your TAS is good but to be published you have to beat the current published run.
You didn't use flagpole glitch.
You can walk through a pipe in 1-2.
You can jump on bullet near flagpole in 8-2 to do flagpole glitch.
It sounds like there's a lot of potential for fun here with instrument glitching. Try to open treasure chests in glitched dungeons whenever possible, for the weirdness that often occurs there. At any rate, we now know instruments can't swim : )
I think the more seashells you can have on-screen at once, the better. That's just my opinion.
Are any boss rooms near enough each other that you could try to fight two bosses at once? And does boss AI glitch out in any meaningful way when you pull a boss out of and then bring him back into the same room using warps and physics glitches (similar to how the current runs double up on the Nightmare fight)?
I wonder what happens if you warp glitch to drag an instrument to a different room, then collect it... (Normally wouldn't be possible as the door locks behind you, but you could glitch physics first.) Based on how the game normally handles this, you could collect the instrument normally on a different screen, but then it should still be there in its original room.
If that's the case, you might be able to get the same instrument twice, which would be entertaining. Alternatively, you could pick up an instrument for the dungeon you have loaded by beating another dungeon's boss if you warped properly, which would be good for a laugh.
I'd start looking at rupee collection for the money needed to get the rooster-reviving song. The sooner you get the bird, the better, I think. Seashell collection can happen on the way if you want. I'm also curious as to what happens if you try to take the raft from the rapids out of its normal area by warp glitching...
I was under the impression that dungeons and caves shared maps. You linked to a site that suggests that in your previous submission. That's all I meant before. It might not last long enough to be worth doing.
Unless you don't plan on getting the Boomerang or Marin, you'll want to complete the third dungeon earlier on, to get the Honeycomb and to allow her to be on the beach. (Any idea if it's possible to warp into the screen with the seagulls on the beach? Not sure where that screen is stored in the game, since it doesn't have normal transitions).
Hey, if everybody else likes it, then I guess it's just me. I hate to undermine a well-done TAS... just hard for me to believe I'm the only one who didn't enjoy it.
After the first few minutes I just found myself skipping through the video. I understand this was done as an improvement to a previous submission, but this game is just boring to watch, I think.
I think this definitely falls into the category of "poor game choice." This is eight and a half minutes of mediocre platforming. I respect the time rog put into improving this but it is my opinion that there's no reason to publish this (besides being a fan of the cartoon, I suppose). So, my vote is no.
(I notice I am the first to vote no thus far. I am concerned that people are voting yes because it was an improvement without realizing this game has not yet been published. If I am the only one who found this boring, then disregard this note.)
rog: given that this game hasn't been properly TAS'd (that I know of) why not do a test run first and not worry too much about optimization just yet? It's quite likely you may find additional time-saving techniques late in the run that you'll wish you could have used earlier.
It's amazing how he is able to ignore all the facts about his suggestions being impossible, his timings irrelevant and his questions stupid.
Instead of explaining why he neglects prior information from others or apologizing for wrong assumptions or his missguided and borderline racist comment about rupees/rubies, he just keeps asking stupid questions.
I'm starting to think Swordless might be right.
Maybe he is just a troll.
You learned the Dancing Stalfos Song! :P
Okay, I forgot something really cool. For some reason, in the fifth dungeon, side-warping in a passage causes a lot of funky treasure chest effects. You get weird messages and it triggers songs from various areas when you open the chests in the dungeon. I don't know what causes this or if it's possible to do in other dungeons. It's quite interesting to mess with, though.
Yes, Bow-wow depends only on clearing the L1 dungeon (can be triggered at any time I believe). Long as you don't return him to Madam Meow-Meow he'll stay with you the rest of the game (and if you warp glitch into dungeons instead of using direct entrances, you can bring him with you, and he eats pretty much every enemy, which can be fun). I don't think it's a HUGE loss if you skip the ghost, only because the game lags pretty hard with a full party (Marin, Bow-Wow, Rooster, Ghost). If you do get the ghost, I'd get him last, then if lag is a problem, take Marin to the Walrus and warp glitch him elsewhere to get rid of her so you aren't lagging madly. Marin shows up after L3 Dungeon I believe.
Other ideas: Marin after the L7 Dungeon is stuck on a bridge. Normally she leaves you immediately after you rescue her because you pull her to safety with the hookshot, but I'm wondering if you can keep her around by glitching the overworld physics and then just walking into her. I've never tested this, but it could be possible to have two Marins...?
I'd suggest doing the trading quest starting with the honeycomb after the third dungeon, as Nach mentioned, because it's just too cool to fly around with the Rooster while the boomerang and Bow-Wow murder everything in sight, and you need the magnify lens to get that. Not entirely sure what happens if you get the Yoshi doll after getting the Honeycomb... Nach might know. Might break the quest, which would be a shame.
I literally laughed aloud at that Mambo screenshot. The run got better as it went on. I especially like the wrong way entrance to the South Shrine, and the glitches after that.
Question: Why do you take a long route to getting the P2 bracelet? Is that just for fun? It's not bad, just not clear why you took the extra time there.
Run looks like has a lot of potential and I like where you're going. I would like to see a L2 sword pickup in this run, and that isn't too difficult if you warp glitch to collect extra seashells, but that's up to you.
If it's possible, try to warp into caves from dungeons when you can--it's pretty neat to see caves with dungeon tilesets.
(BTW, thanks for the encode. I'm on a mac here so I can't play back files, or I would. Much appreciated.)
Unable to watch vbm files here, unfortunately.
I'd recommend getting early flippers (not sure exactly when, just don't wait too long) because you can use the warp glitch in an overworld side scroll area (fishing minigame would be a good option for this). Then you could walk through a broken-physics overworld. Flippers are nice to have since so many tiles become water tiles.
I'd try not to break the sequence of events too badly, because you don't want to skip past getting Marin, Bow-Wow, etc. I'm fairly certain the ghost will never show up if you get the level 2 bracelet before completing the fourth dungeon, so keep that in mind. By completing the seventh dungeon before getting the Rooster, you can keep him permanently.
Digging up Richard's key before turning in the five leaves gives you a key that looks like a leaf.
You should be able to get the magnifying lens without doing any part of the trading quest, but IIRC it isn't actually a lens unless you've gotten the mermaid's scale; I think it's whatever item is next for you on the trading quest. This should be checked--if I'm mistaken, it may be good to get the boomerang really early and have some fun with that.
I can't remember if cucco attacks happen in this game. If they do, you could include that as well, and drag a bunch of angry chickens with you via the screen warp. I'd also mess around with magic powder/ fire rod + enemy sprite glitching; if you warp some Moblins down from the forest, they can end up with sprites from villagers. Then you look like Link the Psychopath, setting innocent citizens aflame.
Note when using the warp glitch to duplicate items (for example, seashells) that collecting an item on a different screen makes it impossible to bring the same item to the same screen again. Something to keep in mind.
I wonder if you can drag the Walrus across transitions and have Marin sing to him somewhere silly, like near Eagle's tower (and subsequently have him jumping off the mountain instead of into the water).
Is that certain? There are ridiculously fast ways of getting the Ocarina and song as well ;)
I suppose I shouldn't say it's certain. You'd definitely have to do some crazy stuff I'm not familiar with, though, because you'd be looking at getting the ocarina, sitting through the cutscene to learn Mambo's Song, and time lost from warping to the pond (Eagle's Tower gives you quick access to both L8 and the egg if you use screenwarping).
There is some time saved by not having to watch the tower turning around when you pop in the key, as well as picking up the key and taking it to the tower. For a playaround, I'd say it'd be more entertaining to not get the key.
After receiving an instrument, you are always put at the entrance to a dungeon from the overworld. In this case, if he does not use the key, you end up stuck physically in the tower tiles with no way to escape, even with save + quit. Can't enter it again because the entrance isn't there yet, and can't get out of the wall. It's a game breaker.
It is possible to escape by playing the Ocarina's second song, but that would obviously take far more time to pick up than the key.
Man, I'm torn up on this one.
I am really glad to see a run that uses the select glitch. However, I do agree that a glitchfest would be far more entertaining, and that the goal choice seems somewhat arbitrary.
Still, I enjoyed watching the run. I will vote yes because I think it is a quality run that adds to the site, and no other run currently captures the craziness of the warping glitch very well at all. However, this run still misses out on so much fun that can be had... I hope you'll consider a glitched playaround run in the future. I'd like to see some of the real craziness you can pull off:
-Having Bow-Wow, Marin, the Ghost, and the Chicken all with you at the same time
-Breaking the physics by screen warping out of a "side scroller" area (similar to what's done in Eagle's Tower, but for more than two screens)
-Duplicating items (easy way to max seashells!)
-L0 Shield and L2 Bracelet hallways
Just some ideas.
Well tank you kind sir, I will indeed carry on then:
"I have not TASed at all, but I did the precise timing of getting rubies instead of rupees selling fish, but that was for RTS. (15+7) seconds getting nuts in the northwest. And with TAS that will save even more time. I don't see how you can say anything else is clearly faster. I have contributed so much to the speedrunningcommunity. I don't know why noone listens to me. I came up with HISS and bombsliding afterall. I don't see what any of you guys are helping out with."
On the other hand:
"I don't TAS this game either, but you are so stupid omg, we are not doing that. Are you even reading this thread? I know so f-ing much about this game, all your suggestions are complete shit, but I won't bother to explain why. Just stfu and respect me."
Thank you all, and good night.
Okay, that actually made me laugh. Well put.
I do understand Slowking's frustration. It'd be nice to discuss serious strategies and ideas for the TAS on the TAS forums. Spider-Waffle consistently comes up with strategies that are clearly just wrong 9 times out of 10, and if he'd do a little fact checking instead of always coming here and asking someone else to do it, then the thread wouldn't end up the way it is. Doesn't justify Slowking's aggressive response, of course.
Ultimately though the best solution would be to just not comment on the matter any more. Spider-Waffle can try to understand why it isn't always a good thing to post every idea he has without fact checking against existing publications, or he can ignore that. He may still come up with good ideas occasionally, and someone who has the patience for him (like Grunz) can sift through his posts for the occasional decent suggestion. Otherwise, just skip right past any post with a ninja turtle next to it.
So, seriously, can we just, y'know, not talk about it any more? That'd be nice. (Sorry if I ruin the fun, sonicpacker.)
In areas where you must kill enemies to progress, normally you have to wait for the graphical effect of the "orb" that spawns from an enemy to fly into and destroy whatever blocks your way.
By pausing and unpausing as soon as the enemy is killed, it becomes possible to travel through the terrain before it is finished exploding. I assume this is the glitch he refers to. Probably saves a lot of frames over the run.
I had no idea the barrier only extended upwards. I can't see any reason that shouldn't work, as long as you can pull off the hover without landing on anything (might be easier said than done given the angle).
Presumably the Minuet cutscene is triggered immediately upon exiting the Forest Temple, since otherwise you'd be talking about bomb jumping around the cutscene trigger. Is there any way to trigger a transition with zero hearts? I assume not, since we've never seen it, but if it were possible maybe you could die as you exited the dungeon entrance, allowing a restart without putting you back in the temple.
Sorry to rehash if it's been done before but I've never seen any discussion or videos of entering transitions with zero hearts.
Also, why can't we beat spirit temple as a child? Impossible to kill the boss without holding the mirror shield normally, or something else? Seems like we could clip to the boss room entrance somehow, so I would guess it's either the fight or something else I'm missing.
Assuming you already considered those factors and they don't matter, I doubt the Gannondorf cutscene would ever be a practical option. Given the wrong warp option to DC, and the subsequent warp to GTG, I can't envision a path that saves more time than the last one you suggest. Could it be worth it to go straight to Adult link after Jabu-Jabu as early as possible, then clear Deku Tree, DC, and Spirit Temple in order? Or is the extra time lost from having to go without bombs for so long (or picking them up without clearing DC) not worth it? I assume reverting to Child Link to do Jabu-Jabu later would be way too much time wasted.
Didn't all the barrier skip testing indicate that, while the barrier's up, traveling past it automatically triggers the damage/knockback effect, no matter where you are? Not to say it isn't possible, but we'd have to find some way to make it not knock Link backwards, I assume.
I assume it warped you back to outside Kakariko because that was the area you entered the field from. If it's warping you there regardless of where you enter, maybe it would have a use if you ever needed to travel to Kakariko from, say, Lake Hylia entrance to Hyrule Field. Otherwise I'm not sure how you'd use this.
Does throwing things like urns, barrels or the wooden sticks do more damage than hitting enemies normally?
He doesn't have the sword until the end of FF1, so that's his only means of attacking. That said, the stuff he uses here do no more damage than usual, but some weapons you can obtain later do IIRC.
It was mentioned that the route requires you to rescue tingle. Is the tingle turner usable in a TAS yet? If not, is there an alternate route?
Tingle is always a requirement in any playthrough, unless it becomes possible to skip collecting the triforce shards. That said, I believe that, for this particular game, the GBA emulation isn't working properly.
If grassini posts bad suggestions and you want to ignore him then go ahead Grunz, but don't stoop to SlowKing's superdouche level and say bullshit like "smartest kid in the thread" when his post is completely fine, wtf.
For the sake of the thread, next time someone wants to say something like this, can we please do it via PMs? I include myself in this criticism. Let's talk about OoT or take our complaints to someone privately...
The fighting game community revolves around a constantly changing metagame, has a larger following, and more or less demands that players keep up with it in order to stay on top of their game. The type of relevant information is always consistent and easily relayed.
Speed tricks and routes for Zelda games, by comparison, require a lot of induction, math, and testing. More specifically, breakthroughs in route planning are discovered most often by the same few members of a smaller community. Thus it's never been as practical for those people to make game route planning super transparent for newcomers to the scene. You also have to consider that doing so requires a lot of discussion and reasoning, and would be a lot more to ask of the same small group. Again, evolution in fighting game meta happens often and spreads by experience, whereas change here is usually theory first, then testing.
This is a long way of saying I wouldn't expect that convenience to become normal for TAS/speed run planning. It's more work both in testing and posting, and there's less people to do that work, and less people who need to know that information in the first place. Not a bad suggestion and if someone with intimate knowledge of the game wants to there's nothing stopping them, but that approach generally doesn't lend itself to non-competitive gaming communities as well.
My 2c.
