Well, I nailed it, LIKE A BOSS!! 1,669 on Level 20 with Guard Sprite. That's a 10 frame improvement over the current TAS.
New updated TAS RTA count will be 24,633 = 6:49.8749776. WOW! Jumped right past 6:49.9 into 6:49.8! Very nice.
I will upload and explain tonight after work. Gotta run!!
EDIT: Here it is!
So the improvement is entirely in the final room, upon returning to the hallway after the Jaffar fight. Before that, this recording is 100% tied with TAS.
In the final room, I found that if you hold the forward button since before the background finished unpixelating, the buffered command allows the Prince to interact differently with the "Finish Line," and the "End of Level" music will be triggered after the 6th running animation, instead of the 8th. This saves 8 frames. The other 2 frames are saved because, with this spacing, and under these conditions, the Select Menu can be pulled up 2 frames faster, saving a half step. That's -10 frames total!
1,669 frames = 27.770930768253968 seconds.
Time starts at 10.0350837678004535 seconds, and time ends at 37.8060145360544217687 seconds.
Link to video
hey Challenger, I found great improvements for Level 20, so the TAS will be safely under the 6:50 mark for RTA count. So far, I've been consistently getting 1,673. The hilarious thing is, one of them was 1 animation late killing Jaffar. So it looks like absolutely perfect run will be 1,669, saving 10 frames. But I have only confirmed 1,673 so far. That is savings of 6 frames, which will bring TAS down from 24,643 to 24,637 = 6:49.94153.
I'll explain the savings soon after I try a few more recordings, and see if I can get everything to go in one video.
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Meanwhile, I've been making Individual Level recordings for this route, and have completed all levels in less than 3 seconds slower than TAS, which means 6:52.9 or better should be possible for humans.
After a little more practicing, and re-recording of Individual Levels, I will soon begin doing the full speedrun again, and hopefully get something below 6:54.
After I make a good enough run for new Any% World Record, I will get back to practicing the "All 20 Levels" GT1 category. Current projection is 22:33, but I still have to test the new GT1 setup, and maybe get the projection below 22:30.
I guess this idea doesn't work. I tried it a few times, but I keep getting a collision with the gate. I did try it on emulator with keyboard, so there was some input lag. But I don't think I'll be able to do anything different on console with controller.
Challenger, have you tried this? Is it possible to make this sprite do a standing jump through a gate, like the jump we did through the wall in Level 16?
I just had a thought while driving. I can't test it tonight, because I'm still moving to a new house. But I'll try soon.
I'm wondering if it's possible to use the trick from Level 16 to jump through the wall, and do that same move to jump under the first gate in Level 18. If it's not too far away for an immediate climb, this should be faster than running through the gate & jumping to the wall. If it saves a couple of animations, this will be what we need to get the TAS's RTA equivalent below the next second.
While I'm starting to play again, and practicing for a sub-7 minute world record RTA speedrun, I'm making an Individual Level video Level 16, using this Static Guard & Skeleton Sprite for the Sub-7 route. My best time so far appears to be 1 game clock time unit away from reaching 1:02 display on the game clock. Current best is 1:03. This will not be exactly comparable to the full run, since the Sub-7 route will include Warp Lag, and the game clock would not be accurate during the full run, as it includes some time from Level 1 before the warp. But this IL video will be a good way of demonstrating the movements and positions, since the full run will be "Blind" on Level 16 after the warp.
(Edit: It may be difficult to save the time unit, and get it down to 1:02 display on game clock. I tracked all movements, and I perfectly tied TAS in all rooms accept the wall clip. For some reason, I'm losing 2 animations on wall collision, and 2 animations on turn-around + jump. I'm guessing I can fix the wall collision with a running jump, to reach the wall sooner. Not sure what's happening with the turn-around. I'll keep working on it.)
I've finally gotten a good feel for that jump through the spikes for a good gate collision before the Level 16 Boss. Now that everything is coming together, I think I should be able to make a very good full run soon, after a little more practice. Shooting for 6:56 or 6:55 maybe.
Good stuff. So I guess Level 15 is the only viable gate clip for "Glitchless" (original) category, for now?
Level 8 clip is about 1 second slower than normal route, if I remember correctly. And you say Level 9 clip is also slower.
Try Guard Skip (level 1 trick) on the Level 9 Fat Boss. If you can get behind him (Select Button to buffer Intro Music) before the fight starts, maybe you can bring him to the gate faster.
Your old TAS had a pretty good running-jump Guard Skip at the beginning of Level 2. Maybe something like that could work to save time.
So, Challenger, what I was saying about Level 5 (disregard kill button), if you go straight down from the beginning, the guard to the left might be able to clip you through that gate, before you approach the 2nd guard. Of course there's no need to clip with the 2nd guard, because he steps on the button for you as you approach. But if there's good spacing with the 1st guard, you would be able to skip the whole trip to the far left room.
A point of clarity:
Whenever I'm doing these glitches on console, most video corruption is extremely consistent. For example, in the picture above, the bottom left frame is from level 4 in my warp 4 + warp 16 fat gate thief route, of which there are many many videos available for comparison; and that room always looks like that, exactly. In all of them, the video corruption is perfectly consistent. Meaning, even with slight variations in performance of the movements in Level 1, once I warped to Level 4, each room would have its own unique appearance that was consistent every time I went to that room, every time I ran that route. So I knew what background shapes to expect when I got to a certain room, looking for specific spacing for a jump, for example.
There have been other setups I've documented where very minor deviations in movement prior to a warp can cause a completely different video corruption scenario. But again, whenever I have perfectly recreated the particular unique setup, that unique video corruption is again completely consistent with its previous appearances.
It is as if each one could be labeled with a serial number, and if you have "this" serial number, you will always see this particular set of visuals, and each room will look the same as it did last time.
Anyway, when comparing all of Challenger's videos with all of my speedruns, it would seem that his emulator is doing something different. (Personally, I like my console's visual decisions! lol)
Perhaps I don't have my own copy of Biz-Hawk set up correctly. But the point is still made by the screenshots Challenger has just provided -- not at all like the "rainbow dots" on my console, which is a familiar pattern in older warp-4 videos.
For console, I'm using an SNS-101. (The newer SNES with small reset button and small power switch.) -- It would certainly be intriguing if the older SNES console made entirely different video corruption. I don't have an older one for comparison.
Challenger, any thoughts on why the Biz-Hawk emulator creates different video corruption, compared to console? Here are some examples, my console speedruns on the left, your emulator TAS's on the right:
It's an interesting comparison, because I've actually found other warp glitch patterns on console that recreate these kinds of visuals we see here for the emulator examples. However, it seems that the emulator really loves those solid colorful horizontal lines, and almost always goes to that. (You may recall these colorful lines very early on, when you made a video of Warp to Level 6 Checkpoint.) It's not emulator-exclusive though, because I have found over the years a couple of very obscure warp glitch patterns that recreate these colorful horizontal lines on console. But it does appear that in almost all cases, console and emulator come up with different visuals for any particular warp glitch.
I'm also curious to know if any of the memory watching tools have given you a better idea of what's happening, and maybe using that data to author new glitch patterns?
I just uploaded a new Warpless Compilation video, which includes the wall clip updates from levels 3, 16, and 19.
81,344 console frames = 22:33.5042494984243.
I still have to work on the GT1 setup, as better methods have been found to save time. This may save up to 10 seconds. Once I've put together a better Setup Demo, I'll make another Compilation Video. For the previous Compilation Video, I spent a lot of time making sure each segment was spliced together to create almost perfect level transition time. I haven't gone to all that trouble this time, so a measure of the video from start to finish is not exactly 22:33.5, but it's still pretty close, within a second at each level transition. I'll probably make the next video perfect, once a better setup has been established. All of the individual level segments can be found on my GT1 playlist linked here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2IdN8AnNyUS4Utl0kWUlqklDLk-rcKxS
And here's the new compilation video:
Link to video
And the very low garbage time of Level 19... at least we know the true clock time when beating this level, isn't? (01:14)
Yes. We can decode the passwords to get a more accurate read on the time. Although the Best Times board is not helpful in this case, at least all of the necessary evidence is present in the video.
at end of Level 18, we see the password, 39JG!V9 = 5509 in-game time units.
at end of Level 19, we see the password, C2JYFVG = 6036 in-game time units.
The difference is 527 time units / 7.08333 = 74.400000 game seconds (1:14.40), and the displayed time is rounded Down to 1:14. The game clock is somewhat inconsistent in its rounding. I have seen instances where x:xx.3 rounded up.
One thing I've never been able to figure out is whether the clock actually tracks half steps. Each time unit is 2 animations, so it's possible to have nearly identical runs that get the same password, even though one is 1 animation worse than the other. I'd be curious to know if the next level's time starts at +0 time units, or +0.5 time units, depending on how quickly the previous level was beaten. My assumption is that every new level starts at +0 time units, but I'm not able to test this.
This is funny, because theoretically, you could have a 20-level TAS that is in the slower half of the time unit on every level, and then improve the TAS by 19 animations on the first 19 levels, and never get any better passwords, even though the TAS is 76 frames better.
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Challenger wrote:
About the TAS time: actually I decided to aim for in-game time instead of real time, which is the reason why on Level 20 I didn't close the select menu as soon as possible, and it achieves 00:00 at the end.
It may be possible to close the Select Menu a few frames sooner, end the TAS time sooner, while still getting the 00:00.
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Challenger wrote:
Well, actually I'm not done with this game yet, because I still want to test this game.
I wanted to remind you. You may see in some of my world record speedruns that I like to play with the Kill Button during the recap scenes in the outro/credits. When I made the 1080p60 video of your TAS, after the TAS ends, the emulator reverts to player control, so in the same video, I pushed the Kill Button during the Level 15 scene, to kill the Ghost, and send the Prince through the gate into the hallway. I think it would be fun if you did something like this in the official TAS video. Of course you can also use player controls to view the Best Times Board from Main Menu at the end of the TAS video.
I do have a small suggestion for cleaning up the TAS time (as opposed to the RTA time). For the "official" TAS time, the clock stops whenever you make the final input.
I would argue that it is not important to minimize the Level 20 time on this Route, because the Best Times board is already busted. This bad Guard Sprite always puts 0:14 for Level 19, making it impossible for the player's time to appear, since it cannot overwrite the very low garbage time.
For this particular Route, I think we would be justified in ignoring the Level 20 clock, and only use the Select Menu to confirm the RTA equivalent. As soon as the Select Menu has served its purpose (when the Prince crosses the finish line), immediately close the Select Menu 2 frames later, end the TAS there, and allow the "End of Level" music to play without further use of the Select Menu trick.
The end result will probably be 6 or 7 seconds appearing on the Best Times board for Level 20, but this shouldn't matter for this particular route. The only real interest we have in the Best Times board for this route is seeing that Level 17 was cleared in 29 seconds.
Anyway, this would cut several seconds off the official TAS time, which I believe is a justified concession.
Challenger, I sent you a private message regarding an easy way to capture the final TAS at 1080p 60fps, for best preservation on youtube.
After I sent you the sample, I went ahead and captured a full video for my own reference. I won't upload it unless you want me to. I'll leave that up to you, until you think it's not possible to save any more time, and whether you want to make your own 1080p60 video for upload.
However, a little bit of bad news has arisen. Now that I do have this excellent 1080p60 video, which is actually captured and played back at 60.098476 fps (very close to SNES 60.09881389744 fps), I have confirmed that the RTA count must be considered 24,643 console frames, which is 1 frame slower than I had calculated previously. Thus, we are actually 3 frames away from RTA sub-6:50, as we must reach 24,640 to break the 6:50 barrier.
24,643 = 410.0413702 349206 349206 seconds (current TAS).
24,641 = 410.0080917 079365 079365 seconds (lowest 6:50).
24,640 = 409.9914524 444444 444444 seconds (highest 6:49).
I'm sure you've already checked the best spacing for jumps in the level 16 Boss room. Really, the key is to get the correct distance for stopping far away from the wall, but close enough to climb the wall. In that case, there should not be any difference in timing with an earlier or later jump after the gate.
However, we have to remember that some jumps just save time, while others hurt time. So we just have to find the best combination of 2 jumps from the gate to the wall, going across the Boss room.
I guess this must be the end. I really wish we could find 2 more frames, so the TAS's RTA equivalent is below 6:50, but I can't think of anything else. I think you've already incorporated every good idea.
The only other thing to do is go back and check each segment of each level, and make sure the best combination of jumps has been selected, and every standing jump is holding forward, etc.
Maybe check the long hallway before the level 19 jaffar battle, to see if any alternate jump patterns save 1-2 frames. I know you did a good job finding the best jump pattern for the level 20 hallway.
Did you ever notice it makes the sound of wall collision when the Prince is leaving the hallway to enter the boss room in level 19? I wonder if there is some interaction with the walls (curtains) in the boss room, from the hallway. Maybe there is a particular sprite position at the end of the hallway that is more conducive for best boss entry.
Besides this, we can save time with the sound trick, using debug code to enable start+select functionality, access sound menu, and use first sound for faster end-of-level transitions, and save 7 seconds on level 19 jaffar intro.
It just occurred to me that maybe you've already optimized the Level 16 Boss fight by hitting Select (2nd time, to close Select Menu) "too soon" (several frames before Prince running input is allowed), and let the Prince continue his mid-air jumping animations "during the music," and perfectly timing it so that input is enabled just as the Prince is landing.
In this situation, perhaps it's the exact same thing, doing the "free motion" at the beginning of the music (my method), or at the end of the music (alternate method).
If that's the case, and you already matched my projected perfect boss time, then that's somewhat disappointing.
The only other thing I can think of is that perhaps if you do an abbreviated version of my "Select Hold," you may be able to save 2 frames, by getting rid of any lag associated with Window Closure (the window will already be closed). I feel like sometimes the game adds extra frames during Window Closure.
If not, we're gonna have to find 1 more improvement to break 6:50!
I have noticed that, depending on jump patterns, or other things, sometimes you can get Select Menu to pop up 2 frames early during "End of Level" music on Levels 16 & 17. This alternate timing might indicate a slightly earlier start of the music. So it may be worth looking at alternate jump lengths at end of 16 & 17, to see if one can save 2 frames.
I know I said I probably wasn't going to submit a new World Record speedrun until I got below 7 minutes, but I changed my mind. This one is close enough, and I might as well start documenting the new route! Sub-7 coming soon, I'm sure.
This one clocks in at 25,304 console frames = 07:01.0399234031746. It's only 63 frames away from sub-7. The aggravating thing is, I wasted 1.6 seconds on the Level 17 Reset, because I lost track of my select menu cursor, while trying to Exit. Ugh! That right there cost me the first sub-7. lol.
Level 1 setup for warp was mediocre, about 1.3 seconds slower than my average best.
Level 16 was decent, only 1.12 seconds slower than TAS.
Level 17 Reset wasted 1.6 seconds on menu navigation.
Level 17 was only 32 frames slower than TAS, because I did triple crouches on the 2nd & 3rd logs, to be safe.
Level 18 was 4.4 seconds slower than TAS. This wasn't too bad overall, but the big bump off the first gate hurt, and the rest of the level was played a little bit conservatively, to make sure I didn't have any more major mistakes.
Level 19 was pretty good, only 1 second slower than TAS.
I made a really stupid mistake on Level 20. I hit the kill button about 20 frames late, and gave Jaffar time to initiate a magic projectile, which delayed the Arena Exit. So I was about 37 frames off target for Level 20. :(
But if I can clean these mistakes up, I should already be very close to a sub-6:55!
Link to video
Maybe this will help you to fix the Level 16 Boss Fight. You can save 12+ frames by following these input instructions. I have done it by hand, and it definitely works.
There must be a period of No Input after the Select Button is finally released, and before the Forward Button is pressed. Otherwise, the Forward Input will take the place of the Select Input, and the game will continue to remain paused.
You may have seen my Game Genie record, where I used "No Gates" code, instead of GT sprites. I might do something like that again, for fun, after I get a good Legitimate record; in this case, the Guard Sprite can jump through gates. I think with "No Gates" code, this new route would be almost identical to GT1 on 16-20, but with a few improvements, such as where FGT was better. Such a run would probably be around 6:20.3536 + warp lag, so maybe 6:24.
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I hope you can find a few more frames to save. Your latest WIP is only 2 frames away from sub-6:50 RTA. (I think the improved pausing strategy during Level 16 Boss should save 8 frames or more.)
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I think this Guard Sprite is a blessing in disguise. I don't think it will be possible to find a "fast 16" warp with a GT sprite. Even though Guard Sprite is 25 seconds slower, that's better than having something like a normal Warp-6 Sprite, which cannot skip gates at all.
Plus, this adds another layer of difficulty to the speedrun category, so it will not be "too easy" for people to fly through. They will need to take time to master these tricks, and the timing of the game, before they can prove their worth on this route! :)
There's one more big question that's never been fully resolved. Once the Warp Glitch has activated Kill Button, is it ok to use Debug Activation Code (Pause, B, Y, Up, Down, Left, Right, L, R, Unpause) to regain access to Sound Menu. Since Kill Button is already activated, Debug Activation does not "illegally" activate it. And as long as Debug Health and Debug Level Jump are not used, nothing unfair is really happening.
Prior to doing any Warp Glitches, Start + Select is a legitimate in-game command to access Sound Menu. Sound Menu has been used in other versions of the game to get things to behave differently.
I have decided to accessing Sound Menu during the GT1 20 Levels Speedrun is allowed prior to any Warp Glitches, to finish Level 1 faster (End of Level Music replaced by short jingle).
If we could access Sound Menu for Level 19, we could save 7 seconds by turning Jaffar's Intro into the short Jingle. As well as save a second at the end of levels 16, 17, 18, and 19. So that should be an easy 10+ seconds off, if we could just do the debug code to restore Start + Select functionality, and access sound menu!
I'm not having any trouble completing runs. All the major tricks are pretty easy. I'm consistently getting a sub-7:10. The problem is, I keep getting stupid bumps on the easy gates! A little more practice, and I'll start getting some serious sub-7 runs recorded, and then post up a new record on speedrun dot com.
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As you could see from my new GT1 recording on Level 16, the other side is faster, but I guess it depended on how fast you could get there. I hadn't tested it out with the Guard Sprite. Good catch.
The "extra fast" princess is essentially hitting the lottery. The game gives and takes lag frames as the system rounds the timing for the output. It seems to happen every couple of rooms, but you probably have to have a lag save at the exact moment the Princess Scene is starting. So quite random, and very unlikely; but definitely dependent upon what has happened before then.
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if your frame count data for the new tas has the same setup as the previous tas, this looks like a 42 frame improvement, bringing the RTA time down to 6:50.02473, just 2 frames shy of a sub-6:50 !!
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How did you "improve" the two standing jumps? Did you previously forget to hold forward? lol.
We can disregard the idea of dying on Level 19. Despite the fact that the spikes are 1 unit closer, too much time is lost by "turning" while the front door closes, and more real time is lost by the room transition. Altogether, it's about 24 frames slower to die on 19. So the current strategy of dying at the beginning of level 17 remains best.
So we're down to one last improvement, that I know of. You can pause deeper inside the Boss Room on Level 16 to save somewhere between 2-4 animations. Of course, this difference will probably remove the "extra fast" princess scene before Level 20, but that should only be a 3 frame loss. I expect the better Boss on 16 to save 8+ frames, net.
Because of all the exit practice I did for the GT1 setup (exiting Level 2, and returning to Level 1), I've got a pretty good beat on the Level 17 reset. After a few attempts, I'm pretty consistently restarting the level only 18 frames slower than TAS, real time. I had to alter the technique a little bit. My preferred technique had been to use left thumb for Select + Down + Down. But in this instance, it's dangerous, because releasing Run too soon can cause the Prince to stop inside the spikes, and avoid death. Anyway, I'm finding it a bit more consistent to get top speed with Right thumb on Select + A, while left thumb does Down + Down only.
I made some excellent progress with GT1 setup for "All 20 Levels" category.
We can use the alternate GT1 setup you tested previously, with Single-UP at hole #2, which warps to Level Zero, then falling, and heading left 2 rooms towards hole #4 (where you found the shorter warp to Level 4).
As we mentioned previously, this route causes small button scramble, where B takes function of Jump + Kill + Crouch, and essentially requires Button Reset for humans.
Furthermore, extra lag is caused in Level 2. I counted about 52 extra lag frames with optimal play and Guard Lag Minimization, as seen in my previous videos.
Altogether, the net savings is about 3.114 seconds with absolute perfect play in the Level Zero segment thru Hole #4, and fast Button Reset in the final Level 1 segment where we jump into Hole #1 to acquire GT1.
This could bring the Projection down to 22:30.3927, but we'd still need to "find" 24 more frames to save in order to break 22:30.
I remember that when you did a GT1 Warp-4+16 tas test, your Level 18 was 40 frames faster, and since then you found 4 more frames saved with the alternate step and jump on the lower level to approach the ledge, after pushing the End Button. So the route definitely has the capacity to reach below 22:30 now.
I'm sure the TAS treatment would find several animation saves on each level, so it seems possible that another 5+ seconds could be saved throughout all 20 levels.
I don't think the other GT1 setup will be possible here. If Level 1 is beaten first, rather than doing a Guard Exit, the Zero^2 route goes to the room with the 2nd Guard, rather than room #2 (where we can do the Warp to Level 16). I don't think alternate movements can fix this.
Yaa Hoooo!!!!!
Fantastic recording. Perfect wall clip. Better beginning. Perfect middle. Improved Boss. Perfect Perfect Perfect!
Note: my wall clip room was the exact same number of frames as the new TAS. 270 frames, 4.4926 seconds. :D
I think I may have been +2 frames on the Boss Music un-pause, but there's really no margin for error, being that close to the ground after a deep jump, so that might actually be perfect also. Very close.
Got time units down to 402, which is about 56.75294 game clock seconds.
Console frame count is 3,559 frames, equal to 59.219138768253968253968 seconds real time.
Man, I'm proud of this one. This is a 462 frame improvement over the old route, which will bring savings of over 7.5 seconds to the "All 20 Levels." I've got some homework to do. There's been a ton of improvements since I made my "compilation video" several months ago, so I've got a lot of new numbers to add up.
Edit: this brings the "All 20 Levels" projection for GT1 all the way down to 22:33.50425 = 81,344 console frames. I'll be taking another look at the GT1 setup for that route next, to see if any of the new strategies you found for GT1 can be applied to that route. (In earlier posts, I mentioned that it appears they work, but with the need for a button reset. I'll go back through, and see if that Zero^2 setup for instant GT1 on 2nd pass can be done here.)
Gate Thief #1 -- Level 16 -- 0:57 -- 402 -- 3,559.
Link to video
3,559 console frames = 59.219138768 seconds.
Here's a quick shot of the 0:58 with the better clip. This is a 407, which is 6 time units better than the video above. Looks like it may be pretty tough to shave a couple more time units off, to get down to 0:57. We'll see if it's possible once I start grinding.
ok, I figured it out. It's actually very easy with slightly different timing.
You can push down early, while the Prince is still in the middle of turning back around to face the wall again. Once the motion is completed, the Prince is ready to jump through.
So you tap right to approach the wall, tap left to turn away, tap right to turn back. tap down during the turn. then hold forward + jump to get the faster standing jump. very easy after a few tries.
I don't have time to record a new video right now, but I'll try tonight after work!!
In your case, I might suggest experimenting with this idea. Perhaps if you change your "down" input to an earlier time, and then do an earlier "forward" hold, you might be able to start the jump 1 animation sooner on the TAS. Let me know if you see a difference.
The game does have some strange and interesting buffer commands. This seems similar to the buffer where you push "down" while the Prince is in the middle of a standing jump. After the Prince lands, and completes the motion, he will suddenly crouch, even though you pushed "down" a long time ago.
In this case, there is buffered crouch, but it is cancelled by the standing jump. So there must be a transition period that brings the sprite forward very slightly.
It's an interesting comparison, because I've actually found other warp glitch patterns on console that recreate these kinds of visuals we see here for the emulator examples. However, it seems that the emulator really loves those solid colorful horizontal lines, and almost always goes to that. (You may recall these colorful lines very early on, when you made a video of Warp to Level 6 Checkpoint.) It's not emulator-exclusive though, because I have found over the years a couple of very obscure warp glitch patterns that recreate these colorful horizontal lines on console. But it does appear that in almost all cases, console and emulator come up with different visuals for any particular warp glitch.
I'm also curious to know if any of the memory watching tools have given you a better idea of what's happening, and maybe using that data to author new glitch patterns?
There must be a period of No Input after the Select Button is finally released, and before the Forward Button is pressed. Otherwise, the Forward Input will take the place of the Select Input, and the game will continue to remain paused.