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Warp wrote:
It doesn't really matter what the actual question presented in the poll is. Voting "yes" still feels strongly like voting pro publication. If there's a problem with the run, voting "yes" feels like saying "there's a problem with the run preventing publication, but I still think it can be published (after all, I am voting 'yes'...)", which feels contradictory.
Yes, it is like saying "I want the movie to get more publicity despite its problems". You don't always base your opinion on rules of an Internet site. If rules could cover all possible cases, we wouldn't even need the poll, since judging could be automated. But there are things beyond rules.
I guess everyone has different priorities, and it seems you value rules more than anything else. Naturally, you can't be entertained by an outlaw movie no matter what it shows. So, in that case it's perfectly fine to answer No to the question about entertainment, because the negative feelings outweight the positive.
Warp wrote:
I don't really see a good reason why there could not be a voting option to indicate an objection to publication
The option you're looking for is "No" vote. It sums up all the negativity that you get when experiencing the movie (both when watching and when reading the submission text/comments/etc).
Warp wrote:
I don't really see a good reason why there could not be a voting option to indicate an objection to publication, and I don't really understand the seemingly strong opposition to the idea. What exactly is the problem?
1. Current poll is pure and free of hacks - all the three options are located on the same axis, so it can be seen as a simplified rating of the movie. There's even "Confidence Formula" using the options like weights of a single scale. This feature will be lost if you add options that don't follow the same logic as other options.
2. The only practical use of the suggested option is to notify judges AKA to state the obvious. This is extremely minor need, and is better done via comments only. There are a lot of similar minor issues that would also want to jump the bandwagon and reserve an option in the poll. For example, I personally don't like how recent Pacifist runs become more and more similar to normal runs (following only the letter of the law and blowing up everything that is not directly prohinited), so I would want an option to vote "Yes, except redo the level 2 which has an ugly indirect kill". But I understand that adding such an option would be ridiculous. So I just sum up all my feelings and vote accordingly (e.g. when I see an inhonest pacifist movie, it must be extremely entertaining to have my Yes vote; if it's only mildly entertaining, it receives either Meh or No - depending on how much it breaks my rule of pacifism).
Warp wrote:
I don't see anything wrong in being able to also express that info in the poll itself. That way a judge can at a quick glance see that someone has an objection, and look forward to it in the comments. What is so wrong about this that it seems completely out of question?
The poll is definitely not a place for this sort of thing. I thought you were purist.
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The poll itself is good as it is.
The only problem is that people tend to vote Yes (or at least Meh) even for mildly entertaining runs, simply because they consider the run technically well-made, or they don't want to look like an asshole voting No, or they actually want to support the author/the game franchise/etc, even though they watched the movie using fast-forward and skipping huge parts because of boring content.
On the contrary, people who actually dislike the run usually abstain from voting (e.g. if you drop watching an encode, you may as well close the tab and forget about the submission. Or you may obey the rule "must watch [supposedly to the end] before voting").
To compensate for this, judges should weigh in the number of votes. Right now it seems that any submission with "0 No votes and the number of Yes votes higher than the number of Meh votes" gets into Moons, even though there were only a few votes overall.
Warp wrote:
So what should I vote if I find the run entertaining but I have an objection to it being published (eg. it blatantly breaks some of the rules)? Should I simply abstain from voting?
No, if you find the run entertaining, you should vote Yes no matter what.
You're not a judge, the site rules shouldn't bother you at the moment of answering the question. Even if the submission is likely to be rejected because of breaking the rules, you shouldn't vote No and throw posts like "In before reject!"
Warp wrote:
Besides, if there were a "this should not be published" voting option, then it would more quickly inform a judge that "hey, someone thinks there's a problem with this submission" at a glance. (More information should be given in the comments, of course, but this notifies the judge that someone does have an objection.) There's nothing wrong about that.
Yeah, let's flood the poll with notification buttons and options that are only needed once a year.
Movie watchers aren't supposed to decide "this should not be published". If you personally don't want the movie to be published, you can write a comment about this, but you may still vote Yes or No depending on the movie content. These entertainment-based votes may lead the rejected movie to the Gruefood Delight. Or they may even change the rule in question, you never know.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
AnS: this isn't a random number.
I was saying, the number doesn't tell us whether it's big or small, because there's no known statistics for the kind of workflow you're using.
When you're using built-in branching mechanism, the thickness of tests (the number of checked routes/etc) is accounted in Rerecords Counter. It's an established practice that can be used to roughly estimate the level of optimization.
But when you're also keeping some branches in different projects, the number of files depends mostly on random factors, for example, in some of these files you store only one branch, but inside the other files there are 10 branches - so does it mean 139 or 1390 routes? In fact, a lot of tested routes were not saved in any of these 139 files, because those routes were proven ineffective (yet they had to be checked, and only the Rerecords Counter remembers how difficult it was to check them - but which fm3 file stores the actual value of Rerecords Counter?)
MESHUGGAH wrote:
And of course, this is still just a statistical value and only numberophiles get enjoyed by that.
Yes, I do like statistics, so I was trying to interpret the given data, but it seems that it can't be interpreted objectively.
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mklip2001 wrote:
Also, the more I watched the video, the more I was getting annoyed that the character can grapple but never swings on the grapple. I know that what you did is faster, and I support that, but ultimately it makes for a less enjoyable run.
In this game the character can't swing at all (it's not like Bionic Commando).
MESHUGGAH wrote:
btw I made 139 fm3 files through out the making of this TAS
I wonder what this random number is supposed to mean. ;)
Note to publishers: FCEUX 2.2.1 has a small bug with the mapper used by this game (can be seen on the title screen), so for publishing the movie I suggest using either 2.2.0 or 2.2.2-interim.
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Well, the "actual arcade" gives it a nice aura of legitimacy. Of course, inside the cabinet there's some PC motherboard with Linux + an emulator running NES ROM of Zelda, but those bulky panels, retro controls and the unobtrusive style of presentation makes people more happy and satisfied. I bet if he were to use a simple PC + unshaven face, a lot of Youtubers would call him cheater and wouldn't really learn anything from the video. So he did good job. Most of us would ruin it by diving into difficult terms like "determinism" or "hexadecimal notation", etc.
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TheYogWog wrote:
what's wrong with just getting the maximum rings possible in those stages where getting perfect is impossible?
Well, such goal just sounds pretty far-fetched, if you'd ask me.
But if you can make an entertaining movie while striving for this goal, then it's ok!
TheYogWog wrote:
how come TASvideos attempts to regulate its own self-proclaimed art?
There are TASers outside TASVideos, so the art is not "owned" by the site and is not "self-proclaimed" (or were you trying to make an insult?)
TASVideos only regulates the contents of the site archive (i.e. the showcase of the art), while the development of TAS art depends on many factors outside TASVideos' sphere of influence.
TheYogWog wrote:
I mean, I personally agree that TASes are a form of art, but isn't the whole concept of rejecting certain submissions for having an "arbitrary goal", in itself arbitrary?
Sure it is as arbitrary as any ruleset is, but it's solid alternative to chaos.
I guess it would be nice to have more sites dedicated to TASing, each one with a different ruleset, but the art it too niche right now, so there's not enough manpower.
TheYogWog wrote:
If a submission is well done, why not give the author a chance to share his work with others?
If a submisison is really well done, then it will be entertaining, and thus it will be accepted. If it's not accepted then it's not well done, at least not by the standards of the community.
TASVideos is not the only site on the Internet. There's always Youtube, NicoNico, etc. There's no such problem as "to share a work with others".
Also, once you upload your movie when making a submission, it's stored on the site forever, so even if it's not published to the main archive (any tier), it still available to anyone who e.g. likes the game and wants to see every existing TAS for it.
TheYogWog wrote:
True art doesn't strive to be a certain way
Also there are other proverbs like "Limitations boost creativity", etc. ;)
Just use whatever concept motivates you better.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Now if this wouldn't be enough, the way the game calculates the Y sub position is ridiculous.
It's not ridiculous, it's the only sane way to substract 16-bit fixed-point numbers on a 8-bit platform.
Judging by the tracelog, 0x7B0-0x7BF stores fractional part of YSpeed, while 0x7C0-0x7CF store integer part of the YSpeed.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Y sub 1 changes on every in-game frame even when you are on ground. Y sub 2 changes only when you are jumping/falling.
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Mothrayas wrote:
Link to video
We've gone over this so many times I've lost count about halfway through. Let's yet again bring up the video proof that shows it is possible to press left+right on console without controller modification.
Wait, does this video claim that L+R was achieved by quickly alternating Left/Right? Because it's really hard to see what's going on there. To me it looks like the guy bends D-Pad by pushing Left + Right with both thumbs at the same time, so both buttons are actually being pressed at the same time (and no "fast alternation" bullshit).
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FatRatKnight wrote:
However, button presses do affect the RNG. The game is directly reading from the controller to change the RNG in some fashion. As if this wasn't enough, it'll also read from player 2, who serves no other purpose whatsoever. In short, I have a full manipulation controller independent of all activities with the game, should I choose to use P2.
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feos wrote:
I see the brilliance of endless interesting features mixed with the speed-oriented action (they just go along each other with no border), heavy rng manipulation throughout the run and impressive endings of some levels that deserve to be put in a gif as a hover version of publication screenshot.
Well, this movie has high technical values, but Stars aren't supposed to be influenced by technical quality, only by entertainment of the movie. And in terms of entertainment there are some obvious flaws in this run, like the aforementioned staying near the Grenade powerup instead of playing around before it's time to take the Grenade. I presume, the author chose to stay in one place exactly because of the sporadic nature of RNG, i.e. he impaired the entertainment in order to keep personal sanity.
Also, I don't see the "endless interesting features". The number of cool scenes is still limited, to the point that some of them were reused - this damages entertainment a lot.
In short, I think the movie could be more entertaining if the author put more time/effort into it. I hope, one day he will return to this game with more TASing experience and even more ideas at hand.
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The thing that happens at ~10.57 is incredibly badass. Other stuff is also pretty cool, but that trick was simply beyond words. I would vote Yes just because of that.
Not sure about Star material (since the game is fairly obscure in the West), but Moons for sure.
BTW, you've mentioned "Entertainment tradeoffs" in your submission text - do you mean "speed-entertainment tradeoffs" or something else? In fact, do you think there's any way to further speed up the playthrough?
Too bad you've repeated a couple of antics more than once, I was hoping that you find enough ideas to end every stage differently. For example, there were several occasions where 2P constantly shoots at 1P and 1P stops the bullets 1 frame before they hit him, at first it looks interesting, but for 2nd time it already looks boring (predictable). Instead of repeating, you could alternate roles after every burst, so it would look like 2 bullets were bouncing between tanks.
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In the first video stage 69 is not completed, so the 2nd version is better.
But now that you've brought the question, I think I have even better idea.
Since you're making a "2nd quest" playthrough, it would be more logical to complete stage 70 instead of stage 35, and then invoke GAME OVER at the beginning of stage 71. But since stage 35 is the same as stage 70, and you can't directly start from stage 36, I suggest you to do the following: at the very beginning of the movie you choose CONSTUCTION, then immediately exit to the title screen and start 2 PLAYERS from stage 35. The map of stage 35 will now be empty, and you can quickly complete the stage. Then, from stage 36 the actual walkthrough begins.
Only this way you can claim that you've "played through the 2nd loop", instead of "playing through the end of the 1st loop and then though the most part of 2nd loop".
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I was just thinking about the problem of diminishing returns from using(/making) better tools.
As in, the tools are supposedly much better (at least "by design"), but the results are only slightly better.
feos wrote:
AnS wrote:
Yeah, this movie doesn't prove anything. Only statistics may do such thing.
Lag count of our movie: 614
Lag count from that guy: 699
Lag count of adelikat's run: 740
No, I mean different statistics, e.g. when the majority of old TASes are obsoleted by TASEditor-made movies, and at the same time little to no TASEditor movies are beaten by traditional method-made movies, then you can talk about "total domination".
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feos wrote:
In level 1 this guy saves only 1 frame over us, and it was unintuitive (just to climb on a rope for longer time and see if it makes any difference).
It actually makes sense, since the speed of autoscrolling is different from the speed of climbing, so you have to find an optimum of those two functions intersecting with each other. You shouldn't just assume that climbing as fast as possible is the best strategy.
feos wrote:
He enters Boss 1 24 frames slower. But due to a better pattern, the boss is lower when he dies, and the item appears faster.
Oh, I knew those long delays after bosses looked suspictious! But I thought you've tested boss battles thoroughly.
DarkKobold wrote:
PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!
Consider this question asked!
Yeah, this movie doesn't prove anything. Only statistics may do such thing.
Sure, with enough determination you can achieve similar result using traditional method. In fact, you can also achieve it using slowdown instead of Frame Advance.
The main point of TAS Editor is that people don't get tired as fast as they normally get when doing rerecords. So it's expected that they will have more time to do more tests. And the quality of TASing directly depends on the number of tests.
Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to work well, because with more comfort people only become more lazy. We lower our own limit of patience accordingly with the new (lowered) level of difficulties. That's why I'm not even sure if there's any point in further development.
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Randil wrote:
I have a small bug report for the latest version: In RAM Watch, when loading a watch file with using File->Recent, all addresses are treated as unsigned hex even if they are saved as decimal.
Fixed.
feos wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
using fceux 2.2.2 svn2693, if I load a compact movie and do a copy paste, the rerecord won't change, but next time I change a frame without copy pasting, the rerecord counter "resets"
Fixed.
Edit: I don't know why the font became so big.
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feos wrote:
By watching the existing fighting games playarounds one can get an idea of what should it look like to be well received.
I understand that it's natural instinct of a judge to try to lighten the judging work by streamlining everything into basic templates, but you should understand that you're encouraging to make clones of existing concepts. People already make enough of these, so no need to suggest it in an official manner.
feos wrote:
People need to feel that borderline before starting serious projects that can be rejected because of being borderline.
No feeling can ensure that a submission won't be rejected. So it's not a big deal that xxNKxx's movie was obsoleted. But if he now reads your judging decision and concludes that he should e.g. remove all possible entertainment tradeoffs from his Battle City TAS (because the game isn't well known), then it will be a problem.
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While I agree with the decision, I don't like the wording, which sounds too prohibitive and far-reaching.
feos wrote:
Once again, if unsure the game is interesting enough, don't make unvaultable movies.
You never know. The game may be boring by itself, but its TAS may become very successful, e.g: Brain Age. So the conclusion "simply don't make" is very subjective. It should not be presented like a general policy. No. People should keep making and submitting unvaultable movies, then judges will handle them case-by-case, and then TAS authors will make their own conclusions, whether to continue experimenting or surrender.
Even for such a bland game as Cross Fire it's actually good that both "pacifist" and "any%" movies exist somewhere.
